Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[R3vo 2654]

Was already wondering who's the guy who likes to be tortured :D

[Roddis 27]

Theres no doubt that its possible to do point shooting (stand up) but its only use in a surprise attack. The amount of wasted ammo its to high. 

 

YT doesn't serve as an example, those guys are relaxed and don't are fatigued, fatigue those guys and see if they can handle  an 11 kg MG in stand up optic view during a long time period. The natural sway due to arms fatigue in increase almost exponential. MGunners are use to create suppression on the enemy, while rest of the squad try to flank, the only way to aim effectively  is use active and passive bipod.

 

I tried to say exactly the same in a post on fatigue feedback some days ago. 

 

• Tweaked: Increased weights of various heavier weapons and magazines to limit certain equipment compositions

Good. It's exactly what i would desire.

Although, i try to aim in Arsenal with a mk200, naked with only a Slash Bandolier and one magazine, reaching 70% fatigue, crounch and then hold breath and i find out:

 

- It's always too simple, ever for a so bad aim skilled player like me, aim with a relative heavier weapon in such bad condition. So, IMO, there isn't yet adequate reward to choice a little weapon instead of bigger one, or to use a bigger one in a right manner.

 

- Seem to be possible to hold breath indefinitely. This is very unreal. I think hold breath have to lead to exhaustion. 

 

 

EDIT: Sorry this on Sway feedback, not here. Move if you can.

[five_seven5-7 56]

Love the sway in dev (1.55.133255) :bounce12:  how is related to stamina bar and reducing sway when rest the aim (mouse). The sway its depend on the stamina on the red status, very shaky and when the player gain its stamina the stamina its in the acceptable standard. The only issue its the great amount of sway using bipod its unnatural. don't see any of that sway described by machineabuse even on time 4x for so long time.

 

This condition will prevent from players always standing in the red and always running with a change to take down opponents

[stormhawkv 19]

I noticed you're changing the mass values of the heavier guns and their ammo types. While I appreciate the idea in general there is one thing I don't like at all: please stop giving items uneven mass values. So far nearly all items have had even mass values with the 11rnd .45 mag for the 4-five as the only exception. This just makes things more complicated. The 100rnd 6,5mm mag for the MX SW now has a mass value of 25 - make it 24 instead. It's much easier to memorize because that's two 20rnd 7,62mm mags or three 30rnd 5,56mm mags and so on.

 

 

Edit:

 

What have you done? 220 mass units for the Mk-1 EMR, 320 for the MAR-10 and 420 for the M320 LRR? Are you serious? I hope this is some kind of an accident or a bad joke. If not it will totally ruin the game. I don't think I have to explain this any further.

[razor6014 35]

No im fine with that , now if only they would make sway bounded my mass weight of weapon and not by optic  that would be more realistic as well.

Right now the sway is the same for any optic on any rifle , which should not be the case , there is no way that a light weapon with

a big optic can have the same sway as a nice heavy rifle.

 

 

What have you done? 220 mass units for the Mk-1 EMR, 320 for the MAR-10 and 420 for the M320 LRR? Are you serious? I hope this is some kind of an accident or a bad joke. If not it will totally ruin the game. I don't think I have to explain this any further.

[stormhawkv 19]

So the MAR-10 now takes up one third of your max carrying capacity. The 220 mass units of the Mk-1 EMR equal 10 kilos for a rifle that shouldn't weight more than 4,5 kilos. The closest real world counterpart of the MAR-10 weights around 6 kilos and you can't carry more than the mass equivalent of three MAR-10. You can look at this from two different points of view. Either Arma 3 soldiers can't carry more than 20 kilos or the new MAR-10 weights 14,5 kilos which is more than the real world M200 (M320 LRR in game). WTF?

 

 

Edit:

 

I can't believe these changes made it to release candidate. Do you even realise what they do to your preset classes? You had to take away the NATO Missile Specialist's Carrier Special Rig and Enhanced Combat Helmet so that he stays under 100% load and the CSAT Sniper from the Marksman DLC (full ghillie) is missing the ammo for his rifle because it would put him over 100% load.

[iratus 71]

So the MAR-10 now takes up one third of your max carrying capacity. The 220 mass units of the Mk-1 EMR equal 10 kilos for a rifle that shouldn't weight more than 4,5 kilos. The closest real world counterpart of the MAR-10 weights around 6 kilos and you can't carry more than the mass equivalent of three MAR-10. You can look at this from two different points of view. Either Arma 3 soldiers can't carry more than 20 kilos or the new MAR-10 weights 14,5 kilos which is more than the real world M200 (M320 LRR in game). WTF?

 

 

Edit:

 

I can't believe these changes made it to release candidate. Do you even realise what they do to your preset classes? You had to take away the NATO Missile Specialist's Carrier Special Rig and Enhanced Combat Helmet so that he stays under 100% load and the CSAT Sniper from the Marksman DLC (full ghillie) is missing the ammo for his rifle because it would put him over 100% load.

 

If I remember correctly, the ingame "mass" despite its name does not stand for weight alone. Instead it's more a function of weight and bulkyness. Therefor if a rifle has say 10 times the "mass" of a hand grenade weighing approximately 0.5 kg it does not mean the rifle has to have a weight of 5 kg.

 

That said, I still agree that 1/3rd of your carrying capacity seems like way too much for a gun, even for something big like the MAR-10! In my eyes this is a sign of the new fatigue system being somewhat weak at achieving design goal #1 "Encourages players to consider their loadout". To compensate for this, powerful weapons have to be "nerfed" in some other ways. Don't like it. I'm okay with sniper rifles and machine guns being somewhat bulky, but this seems unreasonable to me. The new inferior stamina system starts to drag down other game systems :mellow:

[Alwarren 2767]

If I remember correctly, the ingame "mass" despite its name does not stand for weight alone. Instead it's more a function of weight and bulkyness. Therefor if a rifle has say 10 times the "mass" of a hand grenade weighing approximately 0.5 kg it does not mean the rifle has to have a weight of 5 kg.

I've complained about this a lot. There are two completely different values (mass and volume) rolled into a single numeric value. It cannot work. 1 kg of lead is much smaller than 1 kg of styrofoam. It leads to the comical situation were you put three Titan missiles into a Carryall backpack, but when you take them out there is no way in heaven or hell these things could have fit in there.

It also means you can put a ridiculous amount of M203's into a Carryall (I dunno, like, a hundred?) because their "weight" is next to nothing.

[R3vo 2654]

I've complained about this a lot. There are two completely different values (mass and volume) rolled into a single numeric value. It cannot work. 1 kg of lead is much smaller than 1 kg of styrofoam. It leads to the comical situation were you put three Titan missiles into a Carryall backpack, but when you take them out there is no way in heaven or hell these things could have fit in there.

It also means you can put a ridiculous amount of M203's into a Carryall (I dunno, like, a hundred?) because their "weight" is next to nothing.

 

This should have been fixed a long time ago, however, I don't believe we will see proper values in Arma 3 a least. Maybe in the future.

[five_seven5-7 56]

I've complained about this a lot. There are two completely different values (mass and volume) rolled into a single numeric value. It cannot work. 1 kg of lead is much smaller than 1 kg of styrofoam. It leads to the comical situation were you put three Titan missiles into a Carryall backpack, but when you take them out there is no way in heaven or hell these things could have fit in there.

It also means you can put a ridiculous amount of M203's into a Carryall (I dunno, like, a hundred?) because their "weight" is next to nothing.

 

I support your post besides this information: http://www.armyrecognition.com/eurosatory_2012_show_daily_news_pictures_video/the_israeli_company_rafael_unveils_the_mini_spike_missile_electro-optical_weapon_system_1306124.html

 

The actual system is wrong and i don't know any game that use a more real approach to reality . They should use % above player weight (1 G - player weight aprox. 100 kg and maximum limit to 1.75G. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/188986/British-soldiers-suffer-injuries-from-too-heavy-weights)

[domokun 515]

I've complained about this a lot. There are two completely different values (mass and volume) rolled into a single numeric value. It cannot work. 1 kg of lead is much smaller than 1 kg of styrofoam. It leads to the comical situation were you put three Titan missiles into a Carryall backpack, but when you take them out there is no way in heaven or hell these things could have fit in there.

It also means you can put a ridiculous amount of M203's into a Carryall (I dunno, like, a hundred?) because their "weight" is next to nothing.

Anyone who's designed an realistic RPG knows and appreciates this, it's what prevents players decking their characters out in full armour, with fortnight's rations, 30' rope and enough weapons to sink a small ship.

The difference between weight and encumbrance, e.g. waterskin = low encumbrance but high weight versus a shield that's high encumbrance but low weight.

Call me if you need more help in this area.

[stormhawkv 19]

If I remember correctly, the ingame "mass" despite its name does not stand for weight alone. Instead it's more a function of weight and bulkyness. Therefor if a rifle has say 10 times the "mass" of a hand grenade weighing approximately 0.5 kg it does not mean the rifle has to have a weight of 5 kg.

 

That said, I still agree that 1/3rd of your carrying capacity seems like way too much for a gun, even for something big like the MAR-10! In my eyes this is a sign of the new fatigue system being somewhat weak at achieving design goal #1 "Encourages players to consider their loadout". To compensate for this, powerful weapons have to be "nerfed" in some other ways. Don't like it. I'm okay with sniper rifles and machine guns being somewhat bulky, but this seems unreasonable to me. The new inferior stamina system starts to drag down other game systems :mellow:

 

Yes, I'm aware of this and I don't have a problem with mass values not being 100% realistic.

 

However, I do have a problem with mass value relations between different guns being completely blown out of proportion. The mass of standard service rifles has not been changed. Marksman rifles now weight more than twice as much as the MX and Katiba rifles. There is absolutely no point in using them any more. You could spend the saved mass on 360 (!) additional 6,5mm rounds. A sniper now carries more weight than an AT rifleman, his spotter has to carry the ammunition for his rifle and even then he's barely able to sprint 10 meters. It feels as if they are purposefully trying to break the game with these changes.

[blackpixxel 53]

I would love to see Bohemia using the ACE 2 Weight System. There each item had a true weight value in kg for the fatique, and another value for the volume it takes away in your backpack.

[andersson 285]

However, I do have a problem with mass value relations between different guns being completely blown out of proportion. The mass of standard service rifles has not been changed. Marksman rifles now weight more than twice as much as the MX and Katiba rifles. There is absolutely no point in using them any more. You could spend the saved mass on 360 (!) additional 6,5mm rounds. A sniper now carries more weight than an AT rifleman, his spotter has to carry the ammunition for his rifle and even then he's barely able to sprint 10 meters. It feels as if they are purposefully trying to break the game with these changes.

It almost sounds like BI is trying to balance gameplay by putting restrictions on "high value" weapons....

 

Honestly I'm a bit worried about the latest changes BI has done regarding fatigue/stamina. They have posted their goals but as they already were there one has to wonder what they truly are trying to achieve.

[stormhawkv 19]

It almost sounds like BI is trying to balance gameplay by putting restrictions on "high value" weapons....

 

I thought the same but this is something I don't want to see in Arma 3 and even if I would the "performance gap" between the 6,5mm and 7,62mm rifles isn't big enough for a difference of 120 mass units.

[Kryptongame 14]

I thought the same but this is something I don't want to see in Arma 3 and even if I would the "performance gap" between the 6,5mm and 7,62mm rifles isn't big enough for a difference of 120 mass units.

Yeah hopefully with new hitboxes we will get consistent kills with 6.5mm, instead of having to hit someone 4 or 5 times to kill them (it may take 4 shots IRL, but it's going to knock them down before that definitely)

[Beagle 684]

All I can plead for is to leave the fatigue system as it is. it is already perfect in what it does so why change a perfect system anyway.

[Kryptongame 14]

To be honest right now the DEV branch is unplayable. Using mk18, if I sprint at all, the sway is severe and IMPOSSIBLE to steady. If I let stamina fill fully, and crouch, the SWAY REMAINS. How do you expect players to like having 2x sway compared to fatigue? Come on....

[stburr91 1009]

To be honest right now the DEV branch is unplayable. Using mk18, if I sprint at all, the sway is severe and IMPOSSIBLE to steady. If I let stamina fill fully, and crouch, the SWAY REMAINS. How do you expect players to like having 2x sway compared to fatigue? Come on....

 

Yes, there's more than enough sway in the current stable build as it is, we don't need any more.

[Kryptongame 14]

Yes, there's more than enough sway in the current stable build as it is, we don't need any more.

Their goals for this update were to make the system more casual and enjoyable....but this is the complete opposite!!! I'm so confused honestly.

[roshnak 41]

Their goals for this update were to make the system more casual and enjoyable....but this is the complete opposite!!! I'm so confused honestly.

 

At what point did BIS say their goal was to make the system more "casual?"

[R3vo 2654]

To be honest right now the DEV branch is unplayable. Using mk18, if I sprint at all, the sway is severe and IMPOSSIBLE to steady. If I let stamina fill fully, and crouch, the SWAY REMAINS. How do you expect players to like having 2x sway compared to fatigue? Come on....

 

Yep, especially the fact that it takes ages until the sway calms down after stamina is fully regenerated. It's frustrating.

 

 

 

Straw poll

 

[Greenfist 1863]

Yep, especially the fact that it takes ages until the sway calms down after stamina is fully regenerated. It's frustrating.

I wouldn't say "ages". About 30 seconds max (that's 15 seconds before stamina is back to full) with typical rifleman load. And a little over a minute with very heavy loadout with Navid.

If I remember correctly, it took longer with the fatigue system.

 

At one point it was ridiculous though; up to 3 minutes.

[R3vo 2654]

Yeah, but it makes not sense, if my stamina is full, it should mean I am fully rested, otherwise they can remove that stupid stamina bar again.

[stormhawkv 19]

Yeah, but it makes not sense, if my stamina is full, it should mean I am fully rested, otherwise they can remove that stupid stamina bar again.

 

Exactly. They say the old system is too difficult to be understood by the majority of players but now they have a mechanic that is unrelated to the stamina bar which was supposed to get rid of the problem. This new stamina system doesn't achieve any of the design goals yet they intend to push it out.

 

And why do they break the relation of mass values between guns? Who came up with the idea that the GM6 Lynx should take up half the max carry weight? I always thought the preset classes had reasonable loadouts and the new stamina system broke many of them. Did that not raise concerns in your project?