Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Greenfist 1863]

And players can take multiple pistol rounds to the legs and run and walk just fine. In real life you would be crawling and too overwhelmed with pain to fight, if not for adrenaline.

This is very offtopic but still; I just tried this in the editor. 18 times out of 20 a direct hit to the leg from a 9mm at 40 meter distance resulted in a crippled target.

[royaltyinexile 175]

First of all we have all the penalties of the real life ( realistic weight, fatigue, inertia etc) but we dont have any of benefits ( trained strength, adrenaline, more acuraccy based on training etc).

Before the update one veteran using his speed and his shooting skill can make a great gameplay, now we have a extrange version of the game where nobody can make a great gameplay because the player suffer all the penalties.

I'm pleased with the penalties against extreme heavy soldier ( usually AT soldiers) but I think that create more and more penalties to the game increase the "realism" of the game.

I think the game need an internal reflexion about the "destiny" of the game (is this a simulator, arcade, realistic way or what).

.

Thanks for the feedback.

I certainly agree that it's a tough job balancing the simulation of one aspect in the absence of another. The simulation isn't and (whatever 'destiny' one might have in mind) can't be infinite, so, ultimately, it does come down to a set of choices about where to draw lines. I'd probably pick you up on the points about 'trained strength, more accuracy based on training', however, because - one way or another, compensating for recoil/sway, etc - you can learn to master in the in game mechanics.

I don't think it's yet perfect, but one of the underlying goals of the Sandbox Dept's work has been to make the existing features (i.e., the previous weapon sway) less 'random' and, thereby, more open to mastering through experience: a veteran will have adapted; a rookie should be able to learn. If they're unable to, that's where we'd have failed - that's where we'd need to reconsider/refine/bloody well scrap our approach.

Overall, I think we're on the same page when it comes to 'penalising' extreme loadouts. As I've mentioned before, the forthcoming introduction of Weapon Inertia definitely shouldn't make weapon handling more difficult than it currently is; rather, it should give us a tool to make it feel more 'natural'. If anything, the handling of some weapons should be a little easier as the mechanic lends itself to being more 'organic' - or, to put it another way, should be more intuitive / make more sense / enable people to learn and master.

Best,

RiE

Edited July 22, 2014 by RoyaltyinExile

[Smurf 12]

We are criticizing a incomplete system; Sway is delayed but is confirmed. What about weapon rest?

You could avoid some unnecessary flak and get early feedback with one simple answer.... :rolleyes:

[Bouben 3]

We are criticizing a incomplete system; Sway is delayed but is confirmed. What about weapon rest?

You could avoid some unnecessary flak and get early feedback with one simple answer.... :rolleyes:

How is sway delayed? It is already in the game, isn't it?

[Smurf 12]

Inertia....

Oops.

[Fushko 59]

Just wanted to say I like the new fatigue, it adds a whole new different level of depth to the gameplay. No more crouch sprinting like crazy with a launcher and 4 rockets in your backpack. Loadouts actually have a meaning now.

[laxemann 1673]

Yup, the new fatigue system is great!

[Kemeros 1]

I get why you put a new version of the fatigue system and test in on the Dev branch. I however don't get why you would put it also on the main branch when it's obviously not ready. It's missing the inertia AND it has been lowered a few days after because it was too exaggerated.

Convinced a friend to come play with me since he didn't play in a while because of performance issues. I told him: Dude! The game is getting a lot better!

Yup he has more FPS but he rage quit the game in less than 15 minutes because he couldn't hit anything that was moving because of the extreme sway of the reticle.

So yeah, go mad in the dev branch but i'd use caution on the main branch.

I've tried last night the dev branch tweaks. It's a lot more manageable. If weapon rest ever makes it to the game, it should be an awesome system.

[maddogx 13]

I get why you put a new version of the fatigue system and test in on the Dev branch. I however don't get why you would put it also on the main branch when it's obviously not ready.

...

So yeah, go mad in the dev branch but i'd use caution on the main branch.

That is exactly what they did.

The fatigue system deployed on the main branch last week was on the dev branch for ~2 weeks before that and no one complained (to my knowledge). It was only after it was deployed to the main branch that so many people started complaining, so they have decided to scale it back now.

[-Coulum- 35]

So yeah, go mad in the dev branch but i'd use caution on the main branch.

I agree that the devs don't seem to take much advantage of the dev branch for thorough testing. But I guess at the same time the dev branch users have slightly different views than the stable branch. Alot of dev users were perfectly fine with the fatigue already, me being one of them. So sometimes it is necessary to release it on stable to get the full spectrum of feedback.

Onto your friend however...

Yup he has more FPS but he rage quit the game in less than 15 minutes because he couldn't hit anything that was moving because of the extreme sway of the reticle.

When someone rage quits after 15 minutes of playing you must ask yourself if it is really the game or the player that is the problem. Arma isn't a game you can get the hang of in 15 minutes. Thats why we have the bootcamp, a host of showcases and the campaign. It is a game that takes a fair bit of adapting. Its honestly one the best thing about the game. Unlike other games its not ridiculously easy for just any idot with two hands to master. Its also why it is/used to be a very niche game. So maybe he should take another crack at it, but with a bit more patience, or maybe this isn't the game for him.

Edited July 23, 2014 by -Coulum-

[vegeta897 13]

he rage quit the game in less than 15 minutes because he couldn't hit anything that was moving because of the extreme sway of the reticle.

Is this what we're using for a benchmark of Arma players? No offense to your friend, but rage quitting because it's harder to shoot than it used to be, instead of trying to adapt, is not something I expect a reasonable player to do. There has been a lot of valuable and legitimate discussion in the general forum from people who don't like the new sway. Your friend rage quitting isn't a valuable or legitimate justification for anything. Edit: What Coulum said.

The fatigue and sway changes did bother a lot of people, but it also enhanced the game for many others. You say the feature wasn't ready, but I'd say the people who hated it weren't ready.

[Igitur 43]

I'm not against a drastic fatigue system at all, but I want to say I highly dislike the ridiculous slow motion effect this patch induces. Please, please reconsider the way you're introducing the new speed limitations. The way it looks now actually ruins the feeling of realism instead of increasing it imo.

My (hopefully constructive) suggestion would be to use a much more brutal and simpler system : just forbid the player to sprint, run or jog depending on fatigue and load, but please let the game play the animations at a normal speed. Adjust with weapon sway and sound effects as necessary.

While I'm at it, I'll also beg for an additional scripting command related to speed modes. Limited, Normal and Full need to be completed with 'Tactical' and directly bound to the Walk, Jog, Run and Sprint modes. At the very least, we need a way to make a unit move at tactical pace without having to play with the fatigue parameters.

my 2cents

[Bouben 3]

I really dislike the way the sway looks while jogging. I hope it will improve. I also agree that slowmo animations feel wrong. I doubt it will be easy to improve tho.

[Kemeros 1]

When someone rage quits after 15 minutes of playing you must ask yourself if it is really the game or the player that is the problem. Arma isn't a game you can get the hang of in 15 minutes. Thats why we have the bootcamp, a host of showcases and the campaign. It is a game that takes a fair bit of adapting. Its honestly one the best thing about the game. Unlike other games its not ridiculously easy for just any idot with two hands to master. Its also why it is/used to be a very niche game. So maybe he should take another crack at it, but with a bit more patience, or maybe this isn't the game for him.

Well it's not his first time playing it at all though. He just stopped playing because of performance issues. Which got better lately. So we thought we'd get back into it but we got faced with this new um... challenge? I'll admit he's not the most patient gamer i've seen but his criticism was legitimate.

Is this what we're using for a benchmark of Arma players? No offense to your friend, but rage quitting because it's harder to shoot than it used to be, instead of trying to adapt, is not something I expect a reasonable player to do. There has been a lot of valuable and legitimate discussion in the general forum from people who don't like the new sway. Your friend rage quitting isn't a valuable or legitimate justification for anything. Edit: What Coulum said.

The fatigue and sway changes did bother a lot of people, but it also enhanced the game for many others. You say the feature wasn't ready, but I'd say the people who hated it weren't ready.

I understand your point but some changes affect people differently. Being a CS:GO gamer, my friend already has a hard time when he plays Arma because it handles very differently(obviously), which is good because it forces him to adapt. I personally perfer Arma but even i had to admit that the new weapon sway was out of hand. I understand the goal and i agree with it but there needs to be a limit. More sway because of fatigue or stance is good, but looking through a reticle and seeing it move like i just drank a 6 pack in 5 minutes is a bit much.

Now of course this situation has been mostly fixed in the dev branch already. A quick session last night showed a fair improvement. It's still harder than it was but then that was the goal wasn't it?

That is exactly what they did.

The fatigue system deployed on the main branch last week was on the dev branch for ~2 weeks before that and no one complained (to my knowledge). It was only after it was deployed to the main branch that so many people started complaining, so they have decided to scale it back now.

I see, i guess less people use the dev branch than i thought. I haven't used it much lately either although i keep up with the changelog. It's fine though, i told my friend i'd keep an eye out for this and see how it evolves and that we'd try it again when it's tweaked more. Hopefully the stable branch will be patched soonish.

All this been said, i'm loving the new content and can't wait for the upcoming helicopter stuff. :)

[Greenfist 1863]

I see, i guess less people use the dev branch than i thought.

This is exactly what I've worrying about for months now. There seems to be less and less people playing or even trying out the dev branch. At least most of the threads about it have been slowing down ever since the release, although the playerbase is much bigger now than a year ago.

Maybe BI (and us) should promote it more aggressively for getting an early access to the new features.

I don't think the door sound effects will create a massive influx of testers. :)

[Bouben 3]

This is exactly what I've worrying about for months now. There seems to be less and less people playing or even trying out the dev branch. At least most of the threads about it have been slowing down ever since the release, although the playerbase is much bigger now than a year ago.

Maybe BI (and us) should promote it more aggressively for getting an early access to the new features.

I don't think the door sound effects will create a massive influx of testers. :)

It is also a hassle for somebody to switch between the stable and dev versions.

[Greenfist 1863]

It is also a hassle for somebody to switch between the stable and dev versions.

No, it takes about 15 seconds. http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?149411-How-to-change-Arma-3-branches-between-STABLE-amp-DEVELOPMENT-versions-STEAM-client&p=2629204&viewfull=1#post2629204

[Bouben 3]

No, it takes about 15 seconds. http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?149411-How-to-change-Arma-3-branches-between-STABLE-amp-DEVELOPMENT-versions-STEAM-client&p=2629204&viewfull=1#post2629204

Yes, it takes about 15 seconds of boring hassle. Explain that to a casual/not-to-be-bothered Arma 3 player, that buys most of the copies of the game and has the most vocal part of the community when it comes to fatigue and sway. Not me.

If it is not a simple switch in Steam UI, then you are screwed. That is the reality of it.

[Greenfist 1863]

You're absolutely right, but your comment made it sound even more intimidating task than it is. I only pointed out a method for more dedicated players who don't mind a 15 seconds of hassle, in case they didn't already know about it.

[reluxstudio 11]

Message to the developers of the game

Can I make a suggestion, if I may.

There is a way to solve all this conflict about fatigue.

It's simple, put a check box in the game settings menu, to enable or disable fatigue, ready, resolved.

So who does not like the fatigue system disables.

Will appeal to everyone, and therefore will end this story once and for all, who is really getting tiresome

Edited July 23, 2014 by Reluxstudio

[Alwarren 2767]

Message to the developers of the game

Can I make a suggestion, if I may.

There is a way to solve all this conflict about fatigue.

It's simple, put a check box in the game settings menu, to enable or disable fatigue, ready, resolved.

So who does not like the fatigue system disables.

Will appeal to everyone, and therefore will end this story once and for all, who is really getting tiresome

It's better if the mission maker decides. Some missions inherently work by letting you chose between options, like, take a heavy load and be less mobile or take a light load and have less firepower.

All game modes or missions that don't want to have fatigue can already disable it by the enableFatigue command.

If you introduce a fatigue checkbox, you would also need to include a ballistics, weapon sway, load limit, and what ever else kind of checkbox, because everybody will have their pet peeve about which subsystem then don't like.

[Bouben 3]

It's better if the mission maker decides. Some missions inherently work by letting you chose between options, like, take a heavy load and be less mobile or take a light load and have less firepower.

All game modes or missions that don't want to have fatigue can already disable it by the enableFatigue command.

If you introduce a fatigue checkbox, you would also need to include a ballistics, weapon sway, load limit, and what ever else kind of checkbox, because everybody will have their pet peeve about which subsystem then don't like.

Correct.

[St. Jimmy 272]

It's better if the mission maker decides. Some missions inherently work by letting you chose between options, like, take a heavy load and be less mobile or take a light load and have less firepower.

All game modes or missions that don't want to have fatigue can already disable it by the enableFatigue command.

If you introduce a fatigue checkbox, you would also need to include a ballistics, weapon sway, load limit, and what ever else kind of checkbox, because everybody will have their pet peeve about which subsystem then don't like.

This. Option boxes don't always work well and can split people.

[DancZer 65]

Don't make it optional please!

[faire 10]

Well I think that developers were quite vocal in that they do not want to make it (or other "core" features) optional.