Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Smurf 12]

Heartbeat and more breathing sounds would make a good indicator of fatigue without the need of more screen clutter.

[Greenfist 1863]

I'm not saying a separate meter would be intrusive or clutter the screen, but I wouldn't want any more "artificial" indicators. Some visual or audial effect would be more intuitive and immersive.

[CaptainObvious 95]

@ CaptainObvious: Mind you, I recall metalcraze's complaint being that ".50 cal with a Jav" was possible at all... but a dev said months ago that that is possible and they'd only go the "fatigue penalty" route instead of an actual 'ban', so at least this is consistent with that dev's idea.

I remember something along those lines too.

I'm all in favor of extreme loadouts as long as they are properly penalized and do not exceed the maximun volume of your backpack/vest.

I'm not saying a separate meter would be intrusive or clutter the screen, but I wouldn't want any more "artificial" indicators. Some visual or audial effect would be more intuitive and immersive.

My thoughts exactly, artificial meters feel just that, artificial.

[sproyd 2]

- A fatigue meter is a bad idea.

- Also someone suggested fatigue should be based on gear % bar. Also a bad idea, needs to be purely by weight.

- Short Term fatigue vs exhaustion is not a bad idea. Although given the lack of veh in many situations, Arma has a disproportionate amount of long distance running in kit so I don't know if an exhaustion mechanic is going to be very fun for anyone that hits it.

- Regarding the heavy breathing it could definitely be toned down. I usually run in 3rd person and always get surprised by how loud breathing is when switching to 1st person.

[metalcraze 290]

Gear % bar is weight

Although given the lack of veh in many situations

Where have you seen a military operation without transports?

If mission makers will have to design better missions involving transport - it's a win-win for everyone.

[vegeta897 13]

- Regarding the heavy breathing it could definitely be toned down. I usually run in 3rd person and always get surprised by how loud breathing is when switching to 1st person.

I'd like to point out that this is pretty shaky rationale.

[Wolfe 10]

Maybe it could be a module like the advanced first aid in ArmA 2, That way missions designers can choose for themselves if the fatigue effects have a positive or negative impact on mission gameplay. There was this one mission i played where it got really annoying after awhile because there were no transports and in order to complete the mission you had to have really heavy gear.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Wolfe

[-Coulum- 35]

There was this one mission i played where it got really annoying after awhile because there were no transports and in order to complete the mission you had to have really heavy gear.

My only suggestion would be having the fatigue system turn off at lower difficulty. But really the situation you describe is due to poor mission design rather than the fatigue system. If a mission maker makes a mission pitting you against 100's of ai's at once with a pistol, it wouldn't be right to have all players in the game have unlimted health and all pistols in arma insta kill. It is up to mission makers to fix that sort of problem. At least that is my opinion. And like metalcraze says, the new fatigue will encourage mission makers to create more realistic scenerios which I think is generally a good thing.

[Wolfe 10]

Yeah but sometimes realism can get in the way of gameplay, which is why it would be nice for the fatigue system to be either scaled according to difficulty or as a module that mission designers could put in. Now that I think about it, fatigue scaling according to difficulty would be a better solution.

[Smurf 12]

And make mission making even harder, having to think in every difficulty? Please no.

Poor mission design shouldn't be an excuse to avoid the weight system in a game like Arma.

[St. Jimmy 272]

And make mission making even harder, having to think in every difficulty? Please no.

Poor mission design shouldn't be an excuse to avoid the weight system in a game like Arma.

This.

The fatigue needs to be in the base game and only removed by scripting or a module.

[twisted 128]

Weight system is critical. Thanks bis for making a real solid start here. Adds a lot to the game play.

[metalcraze 290]

Yeah but sometimes realism can get in the way of gameplay, which is why it would be nice for the fatigue system to be either scaled according to difficulty or as a module that mission designers could put in. Now that I think about it, fatigue scaling according to difficulty would be a better solution.

Or how about... adapting to the challenges of the game for once?

A wild suggestion I know

[progamer 14]

Or how about... adapting to the challenges of the game for once?

A wild suggestion I know

It's the Battlefield and COD mentality of not needing to learn anything before you can get good. Making it more casual and accessible.

On topic, slowing down the animations does not seem like a good way to show fatigue. It looks strange. The fatigue animations should resemble a fatigued person in real life and not just someone moving in slow motion.

For example have people run on treadmills until they get the applicable amount of fatigue. Then have them preform the current in game animations and mocap them.

Would make for a better way of demonstrating a fatigued soldier and a more immersion sense of fatigue.

[-Coulum- 35]

Meh I disagree, I think the slow down animations look fine (except for a few occasions like going prone) and they have a very good impact on the game. Most importantantly, they are gradual:

With your suggestion we would go from running at full speed to "oh we passed that magical thresshold and suddenly slow down to half speed" if I am understanding you correctly. that is unnatural and gamey IMO. One thing I wish is that something was there to make aiming feel sluggish when extremely fatigued...

Or how about... adapting to the challenges of the game for once?

A wild suggestion I know

It's the Battlefield and COD mentality of not needing to learn anything before you can get good. Making it more casual and accessible.

I hate to sound elitist or what not but I have to agree. I mean since when are you supposed to master mechanics right off the bat. Some of the things I hear people complain about these days, its literally like: "I have had this game for 2 days, x feature is too hard or too realistic or unrealistically hard, take it out and make it easier. When the attitude "should" be: "wow this is challenging, I am going to enjoy mastering this and can't wait to improve". I mean do people not consider that the reason they get owned is because, to put it bluntly, they are just not yet very good at the game? And there's nothing wrong with that, I know I suck at playing video games in general.

I realize that many don't have the time to play lots and "improve", me currently being one, but really one of the great things about arma is that it is so challenging, because the bigger the challenge, the more satisfying success is. You gotta adapt before you can win. And right now its seems (some) people want to be super elite one man armies able to take on hordes of ai from day 2. That's just the wrong mentality in my opinion and goes against some of the core ideas of the game (cog in the machine).

That being said I have no problem with difficulty settings to help accustom players to the game.

Okay, poorly disguised rant done, sorry.

People earlier were talking about "long term" fatigue. I fully agree we need it, but I don't think another "fatigue metre" is needed to do so. I think it is entirely possible by basically extending the current "fatigue bar" if you know what I mean.

And just like to shout out again for increased prone weapon sway when fatigued because it seemed to be a pretty popular notion.

Keep up the good work BIS!

[defk0n_NL 2]

Also there needs to be some sort of GUI for stamina, Not a bar perse. More of a indicator, Red to green circle showing fatigue + with a pulsating circle inside indicating heart rate. (as a example)

Its pretty crucial information.

[dmarkwick 261]

I would disagree with the notion of making the fatigue scalable. Either it should be on, or off, different scales of fatigue will very quickly become an annoyance IMO, one that in practise would polarise into two extremes in any case :)

IMO natch.

So fatigue, if necessary, could easily become a game difficulty choice like other examples. But if it were on permanently I wouldn't complain.

As for onscreen indicators, I acknowledge my previous suggestion was rubbish :) I don't think it really needs any, your onscreen abilities regarding running speed & aiming steadiness/weapon movement will tell you what you need to know. But again, an onscreen indicator wouldn't bother me.

[dnk 13]

Pro-scalable:

This on/off switching is gamey.

It breaks immersion to have sudden shifts in animations/etc.

At any point in combat where I've been running around a lot, I should be penalized for not taking 5sec for a breather. I should be slower/less accurate than someone who's been well rested for a few minutes and is settled in place. Why should I be able to hit targets at 350m as well as that guy? Why should I be as fast as him? My muscles would have that much more lactic acid built up. I want that modeled.

*****

Long-term fatigue:

Okay, perhaps it can be inserted with the current system. I mean, currently (main branch) it's sort of like "60% fatigue, no more sprinting" and that's nearly it. Also, the regain rates are ridiculously fast (I think it's 5%/sec while prone, 2% crouched/standing, meaning 60%-0 in about 12sec). It's unrealistic. I'm no soldier, but I do run regularly, and if after 5-10min of a good jog I start sprinting about as fast as I can (which, by the way, takes a few seconds to build up to), as soon as I have to cut off and lower my speed, simply stopping for 12 seconds and lying down is not going to make it so I'm 100% again. I need a much longer breather to let the lactic acid dissipate and fully catch my breath, and that's with ~1kg of "gear" on. I'm fine without long-long-term fatigue, since most missions/lives won't last much more than 30min, but the current system needs to have more realistic regain rates and loss rates. In my experience, a 5-10min fast jog requires about 2-4min of recuperation before I'm near 100% again (though it would be more like 87% since I've used up some energy and worn my muscles a bit). A light jog can be maintained almost indefinitely, though.

Maybe a system where the regain rates vary by quintile?

1.0-0.8 fatigue = 3x regain

0.8-0.6 = 2x regain

0.6-0.4 = 1x regain

0.4-0.2 = 0.5x regain

0.2-0.0 = 0.25x regain

That seems more realistic, when combined with more realistic regain and loss rates.

[Vegatry 10]

Pro-scalable:

This on/off switching is gamey.

It breaks immersion to have sudden shifts in animations/etc.

At any point in combat where I've been running around a lot, I should be penalized for not taking 5sec for a breather. I should be slower/less accurate than someone who's been well rested for a few minutes and is settled in place. Why should I be able to hit targets at 350m as well as that guy? Why should I be as fast as him? My muscles would have that much more lactic acid built up. I want that modeled.

*****

Long-term fatigue:

Okay, perhaps it can be inserted with the current system. I mean, currently (main branch) it's sort of like "60% fatigue, no more sprinting" and that's nearly it. Also, the regain rates are ridiculously fast (I think it's 5%/sec while prone, 2% crouched/standing, meaning 60%-0 in about 12sec). It's unrealistic. I'm no soldier, but I do run regularly, and if after 5-10min of a good jog I start sprinting about as fast as I can (which, by the way, takes a few seconds to build up to), as soon as I have to cut off and lower my speed, simply stopping for 12 seconds and lying down is not going to make it so I'm 100% again. I need a much longer breather to let the lactic acid dissipate and fully catch my breath, and that's with ~1kg of "gear" on. I'm fine without long-long-term fatigue, since most missions/lives won't last much more than 30min, but the current system needs to have more realistic regain rates and loss rates. In my experience, a 5-10min fast jog requires about 2-4min of recuperation before I'm near 100% again (though it would be more like 87% since I've used up some energy and worn my muscles a bit). A light jog can be maintained almost indefinitely, though.

Maybe a system where the regain rates vary by quintile?

1.0-0.8 fatigue = 3x regain

0.8-0.6 = 2x regain

0.6-0.4 = 1x regain

0.4-0.2 = 0.5x regain

0.2-0.0 = 0.25x regain

That seems more realistic, when combined with more realistic regain and loss rates.

Could be a good idea, but could be annoying for some community/group that plays huge scale mission that usually require a long walk and frequent engagement. Long recuperation means to slow down the whole mission pace, which could make an hour long mission ends up in two hours.

But yeah, the 1.0-0.8 fatigue = 3x regain looks cool and promising.

Perhaps combat pace with weapon down only drop to 0.8, and jogging with weapon down only drop to 0.6, with cp on weapon up only drop to 0.6, and jogging with high weapon ready stances will only drop to 0.4, and sprinting will fully exhaust the value?

[metalcraze 290]

It seems distance needed to get to max fatigue when traveling light is increased. Which means it's safe to make speed limit harsher. After all you'd still hit those 12 km/h after the same distance so why not take it further at longer ones.

33% absolute exhaustion penalty will be good.

Think on some initial speed penalty for very heavy loads too.

Also good that the ability to run up steep slopes is finally fixed.

[progamer 14]

Would it be possible to throw in an adrenaline factor into fatigue. Because while it it realistic, adrenaline is a huge factor in combat. It would make fatigue seem a lot more realistic.

---------- Post added at 01:22 ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 ----------

Also, love the tweaks to weapon sway. It's a million times better than before and feels closer to VBS.

[vegeta897 13]

Would it be possible to throw in an adrenaline factor into fatigue. Because while it it realistic, adrenaline is a huge factor in combat. It would make fatigue seem a lot more realistic.

Oh man, this would be awesome. Having a burst of energy after taking fire and stuff would be really cool, both for gameplay and realism.

[dale0404 5]

Also there needs to be some sort of GUI for stamina, Not a bar perse. More of a indicator, Red to green circle showing fatigue + with a pulsating circle inside indicating heart rate. (as a example)

Its pretty crucial information.

Sorry mate, totally disagree with this, we have enough indicators showing fatigue already.

[Bouben 3]

My only problem with the fatigue system right now are the terrible slowed down animations (the running animation is quite fine though).

[blu3sman 11]

Would it be possible to throw in an adrenaline factor into fatigue. Because while it it realistic, adrenaline is a huge factor in combat. It would make fatigue seem a lot more realistic.

Oh man, this would be awesome. Having a burst of energy after taking fire and stuff would be really cool, both for gameplay and realism.

Man, this is soo exploitable. I allready imagine certain people, having to travel a lot, shoot at each other to boost their adrenaline.