Antilochos 106 Posted August 2, 2017 27 minutes ago, en3x said: I recall their effort of AI pathfinding/ vehicle pathfinding efforts, and other smaller/medium tweaks (suppresion, grenades, vision) so I wouldn't rule them out. They might be more in line with DLCs probably. My thoughts exactly. The tank dlc could very well bring us something extra, like a realistic suspension. Can't imagine they only bring some extra fancy tanks. The orange dlc is still an enigma apparently (for me at least), but I expect something new and since it will get mini campaign and showcase, I have hopes for some better movement from AI concerning cities and buildings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tankbuster 1744 Posted August 2, 2017 58 minutes ago, The Man Without Qualities said: it is over You make a compelling and cogent argument. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fn_Quiksilver 1636 Posted August 2, 2017 4 hours ago, en3x said: I recall their effort of AI pathfinding/ vehicle pathfinding efforts, and other smaller/medium tweaks (suppresion, grenades, vision) so I wouldn't rule them out. They might be more in line with DLCs probably. - 14 months ago - left the wheeled vehicle driving Broken - walked away from the project (or being reassigned or whatever) without word - didnt bother to revert or restore default to the prior not-broken AI wheeled vehicle driving - didnt bother to fill in the community of AI modders on whether to bother making repro's, reporting specific issues, whether it was being put off till 2018, etc. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
en3x 209 Posted August 2, 2017 I agree, changes were made long time ago and I bet switch focus happens when DLC production ramp up. Still being left in a dark with barely any information makes it hard to comment or suggest improvements. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klamacz 448 Posted August 3, 2017 Good day community. There is a new change which will appear on dev-branch (revision 142512), which will affect AI a lot. It is called "AI skill inversion refactored" and changes the way AI skill set on units affects some of the AI features. Previously the effect would have hyperbolic curve, now it is more linear and predictable. In practice it means, that skill set on unit will translate to unit actions in more proportional way, difference between 0.3 to 0.5 will be more smooth and gradual instead of switching fast between no-brainer and terminator state. Also it is a fix for broken behaviors with skill close or equal zero. Following features are affected by this change: - aiming error, muzzle dispersion, allowed target size - during aiming and engaging - spotting, hearing, delay of reaction - during observation, target selection, ambush or sneaking scenarios - reloading weapon delay - reporting enemy for group delay Some of those things (especially spotting related) might be well out of balance now, and your feedback will be greatly appreciated. 28 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grumpy Old Man 3545 Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, klamacz said: Good day community. There is a new change which will appear on dev-branch (revision 142512), which will affect AI a lot. It is called "AI skill inversion refactored" and changes the way AI skill set on units affects some of the AI features. Previously the effect would have hyperbolic curve, now it is more linear and predictable. In practice it means, that skill set on unit will translate to unit actions in more proportional way, difference between 0.3 to 0.5 will be more smooth and gradual instead of switching fast between no-brainer and terminator state. Also it is a fix for broken behaviors with skill close or equal zero. Following features are affected by this change: - aiming error, muzzle dispersion, allowed target size - during aiming and engaging - spotting, hearing, delay of reaction - during observation, target selection, ambush or sneaking scenarios - reloading weapon delay - reporting enemy for group delay Some of those things (especially spotting related) might be well out of balance now, and your feedback will be greatly appreciated. I've (and most likely others as well) spent a lot of time tweaking my AI subskill functions to the point where I'm satisfied with how the AI reacts and acts. Will these subskills still be interpolated through CfgSkills, AI level skill and the precision slider in the players profile(!!!) settings? Why change something like this almost 4 years into the games life cycle? Will this possibly break missions where the AI is using skills set below 0.5 to simulate untrained/guerilla troops? Cheers 9 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottb613 283 Posted August 3, 2017 Hi Folks, Yeah - my two biggies for AI: some intermediate discovery state - heard something - start looking - pointing - hands over eyes to see better... some sort of sense for self preservation morale system (anyone play Total War series - troops run away when decimated) Regards, Scott Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alwarren 2767 Posted August 3, 2017 45 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Man said: Why change something like this almost 4 years into the games life cycle? I certainly hope we will get something like a conversion formula. I guess everybody has tweaked their AI settings over the years (especially server admins) and this has potential to really mess things up :| 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
derbismarck 24 Posted August 3, 2017 2 hours ago, klamacz said: Good day community. There is a new change which will appear on dev-branch (revision 142512), which will affect AI a lot. It is called "AI skill inversion refactored" and changes the way AI skill set on units affects some of the AI features. Previously the effect would have hyperbolic curve, now it is more linear and predictable. In practice it means, that skill set on unit will translate to unit actions in more proportional way, difference between 0.3 to 0.5 will be more smooth and gradual instead of switching fast between no-brainer and terminator state. Also it is a fix for broken behaviors with skill close or equal zero. Following features are affected by this change: - aiming error, muzzle dispersion, allowed target size - during aiming and engaging - spotting, hearing, delay of reaction - during observation, target selection, ambush or sneaking scenarios - reloading weapon delay - reporting enemy for group delay Some of those things (especially spotting related) might be well out of balance now, and your feedback will be greatly appreciated. I really appreciate this. Thank you for taking the time to make changes to the AI behavior and skill values, every little bit helps. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krycek 349 Posted August 3, 2017 @klamacz, it would be nice if you guys had a look once per 6 months-year to other things than infantry AI, like maybe AI driving and behaviour?! Me and others reported quite a few probs in this thread and "AI driving-feedback topic". 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon01 902 Posted August 3, 2017 When they tweak vehicle AI, people complain about infantry AI having issues. When they tweak infantry AI, you complain about problems with vehicle AI... In general, AI design is a very complex matter. Despite what people are saying, there are no "simple" problems. It takes a lot of time and a significant manpower investment to do anything with AI. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallujahMedic -FM- 867 Posted August 3, 2017 22 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said: - 14 months ago - left the wheeled vehicle driving Broken - walked away from the project (or being reassigned or whatever) without word - didnt bother to revert or restore default to the prior not-broken AI wheeled vehicle driving - didnt bother to fill in the community of AI modders on whether to bother making repro's, reporting specific issues, whether it was being put off till 2018, etc. Moderator hat off. I say this personally, as a player and not a moderator, but since when did BI ever answer to you? The product that was advertised and which I purchased (way back in 2013) has been delivered and delivered in spades. Anything that came after that purchase date is a bonus. BI are unique in that they continue to improve their product. Sometimes it works out as a positive and other times a negative. Ever bought a car, only to have the next model year have better features? Maybe it's my age and I'm out of touch, who knows. But, I come from a time where when you bought a game, that was its final version. Want an update? You'll have to buy the new version for that. So, when BI offer features and updates free of charge, I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. Moderator hat back on. 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alwarren 2767 Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, dragon01 said: When they tweak vehicle AI, people complain about infantry AI having issues. When they tweak infantry AI, you complain about problems with vehicle AI... In general, AI design is a very complex matter. Despite what people are saying, there are no "simple" problems. It takes a lot of time and a significant manpower investment to do anything with AI. This is a broad, generic, and blatantly obvious statement. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon01 902 Posted August 3, 2017 Yes, I shouldn't have had to point that out, but for some people it's not as obvious as you think. It seems that there are a few people out there who think BIS either has infinite manpower or that AI issues could be fixed by just looking at the code and changing some magic numbers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
froggyluv 2135 Posted August 3, 2017 cmon guys its totally fair game for us to inquire on the trajectory of development considering to some it is the single most important factor outside of PvP. You see, nothing really matters not jets, Marksmen, the color orange etc.. if the AI are not fun to play against. im not saying they arent fun or have their strengths - we've just seen a huge push in terms of MP development and would like to know where we stand in terms of importance. That said - i ve been testing and trying to calibrate these subskills for well over a year but am still pretty thrilled you guys are revisting this very important area - using words like Ambush and reaction time definitely peaks my interest. Hopefully unitTraits especially Camo and surrounding terrains get a look thru as well -ive also been trying to get different ambush factors depending on what type of terrain unit is in but its been hackey at best. AFC this week so would love to hear any feedback on how these new calibrations play out 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon01 902 Posted August 3, 2017 I do hope that infantry AI gets improved. Last time I tested vehicles worked well, but that might have changed. Infantry is, IMO, the most important part of the game. Vehicles, as long as they're usable in normal situations (besides VTOLs, they are, unlike what some people claim) are a secondary concern. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
das attorney 858 Posted August 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, Alwarren said: This is a broad, generic, and blatantly obvious statement. That phrase is a keeper. I'm going to remember that one and use it in general conversation next time I'm in the pub. xD 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teabagginpeople 398 Posted August 3, 2017 spotting, hearing, delay of reaction - during observation, target selection, ambush or sneaking scenarios. That curve from carless to terminator very annoying. This all sounds welcoming. Wouldn't happen to have anything to do with tac ops dlc would it. A nice mission in the pipeline perhaps I senses it so I do. But back to this. It has been a long time coming. Glad to see moves being made. And happy to provide feedback yes indeedy. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tankbuster 1744 Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, das attorney said: That phrase is a keeper. I'm going to remember that one and use it in general conversation next time I'm in the pub. xD Hey, DA! It's your round! This is a broad, generic, and blatantly obvious statement. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tankbuster 1744 Posted August 3, 2017 @klamacz makes the mistake of parachuting into a lively slagging-off-AI-driving convo without reading what the current in-thread mood is and posts something that we're not currently interested in. I think he got off pretty lightly. :) 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krycek 349 Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, dragon01 said: Yes, I shouldn't have had to point that out, but for some people it's not as obvious as you think. It seems that there are a few people out there who think BIS either has infinite manpower or that AI issues could be fixed by just looking at the code and changing some magic numbers. They aren't also some indie dev with small funds that barely scraps by and convoy or AI driving&pathfinding was always wonky at best. My bag of BI excuses for this area is empty from Arma2 time after I've been here since 2002 and always thought "they'll fix it next time,they are the only one with a game of this scope,next gonna be a lot better". So passed Ofp,Arma1,A2OA and here we are at A3. They have their good parts(the supporting part) and they have their very bad parts(that supporting doesn't extend to AI much). Vehicle AI stayed mostly the same,basically morons that can't detect obstacles properly or target management, or getting stuck somewhere or......so on. Yeah ok AI is a very complex matter but if you can't find a solution in 16 years then scrap the whole thing because it's obvious it's broken at the core. I was more than happy to excuse them in OFP,it was a new thing, but after 4 games and expansions I tend to ask myself "so will this ever be fixed?". I don't even want some duper real tactics for AI driving, just to detect the object in front of them,to navigate a city to go from A to B without running over friendlies or getting stuck in some wall,tree etc. The complexity of their games increased and also added new systems on the back of an AI framework that remained mostly the same at the core. It's like you keep adding floors to a house that you build in a swamp. That "tweak vehicle AI people complain about infantry AI" isn't exactly true. Infantry AI had the most attention since release and the only serious vehicle tweaks were last year which they broke shortly after and didn't fixed them even now. 4 years after release(at least they can cross bridges now). The other tweak they had was to be able to back up which sadly works 50% of the time. People asking for some AI driving improvements aren't asking because we're some kind of masochists that like to spend time with a product we don't like, on the contrary. The sandbox part is the most detailed in their games so far and the Eden editor was a huuuuuuge step in creating perversely detailed missions with insane customization, but would be nice for their toys to also work better in this sandbox. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
das attorney 858 Posted August 3, 2017 50 minutes ago, krycek said: It's like you keep adding floors to a house that you build in a swamp. "The fourth one stayed up" 8 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alwarren 2767 Posted August 4, 2017 14 hours ago, froggyluv said: cmon guys its totally fair game for us to inquire on the trajectory of development considering to some it is the single most important factor outside of PvP. You see, nothing really matters not jets, Marksmen, the color orange etc.. if the AI are not fun to play against. im not saying they arent fun or have their strengths - we've just seen a huge push in terms of MP development and would like to know where we stand in terms of importance. I fully agree and I am a bit worried to read things like "Some of those things (especially spotting related) might be well out of balance now". I hope that ample testing is given to these things, and that BIS doesn't only rely on community testing. For example, we don't use dev branch for our server ever since it means having daily updates and that is just too much . As others have pointed out, re-scaling skill values will destroy a delicate balance that most of the clans I know of have worked out over the years, so it better be worth it. To be perfectly honest, I would have preferred to see that kept as it is, as broken as it might appear, and concentrate on other aspects of the AI. But that is just me I guess. I do applaud any work being done on the AI, I just wish the focus was elsewhere. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klamacz 448 Posted August 4, 2017 18 hours ago, Grumpy Old Man said: I've (and most likely others as well) spent a lot of time tweaking my AI subskill functions to the point where I'm satisfied with how the AI reacts and acts. Will these subskills still be interpolated through CfgSkills, AI level skill and the precision slider in the players profile(!!!) settings? Why change something like this almost 4 years into the games life cycle? Will this possibly break missions where the AI is using skills set below 0.5 to simulate untrained/guerilla troops? Yes, skills are still interpolated through cfgSkills, and skill sliders from settings. Yes, the change may break or unbalance any mission which uses AI skill. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tankbuster 1744 Posted August 4, 2017 13 minutes ago, klamacz said: Yes, skills are still interpolated through cfgSkills, and skill sliders from settings. Yes, the change may break or unbalance any mission which uses AI skill. Wonderful. A change that breaks things. Any chance of some changes that fix things? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
