AI Discussion (dev branch)

[metalcraze 290]

For all its faults - AI does not see through grass as has been proven million times through tests.

 

Here's one from ArmA2 days on Chernarus. The primary thing of note here is not the guy laying in the grass losing a sight of targets, but a whole squad of enemies unable to spot him in it.

 

[oukej 2910]

A documentation is in progress that should help the community authors set up the AI variables (surface properties, clutter, weapon properties,...)

[Vasily.B 529]

For all its faults - AI does not see through grass as has been proven million times through tests.

 

Here's one from ArmA2 days on Chernarus. The primary thing of note here is not the guy laying in the grass losing a sight of targets, but a whole squad of enemies unable to spot him in it.

 

Not true. AI sees through grass, i died bilion times beacuse of this, and not only me. I wish i could record gameplay, but uploading video would finish day after tomorrow with my internet AI see through grass without single problem (NOW).

[Alwarren 2767]

 Nice detailed post on reactions -good stuff there. That AI flinch just HAS TO GO! Man with all the disappointment of losing AI in a lackluster campaign, they cant add a few hit animations in or throttle up that ragdoll a bit?

 

 Config changes aint enough homies!!! (shouts to empty canyons)

 

Agreed, I hate the flinch with a passion.

 

I recently played Ghost Recon again, a game from 2001. When you kill someone, their death actually looks natural (okay, sometimes it is a bit dramatic). But if you shoot a fleeing AI into their leg, they actually topple over.

It should really not be too difficult to add some hit animations (hit in the shoulder, hit in the chest, hit in a leg) and re-use the death animations from Arma 2 and THEN hand-off to ragdoll.

And tweak the ragdoll parameters a bit, sometimes you find dead guys completely folded up as if there were no joints in their legs. I didn't like the fact that sometimes dead Arma 2 soliders would be suspended only by their foot from a roof, but as a rule, they looked more like dead people and not like, well, rag dolls.

 

For reference, look at this video from iD'S Rage at 27:52

https://youtu.be/ZV6bpn14foU?t=1672

Note how he flinches back when he gets hit in the shoulder. It's little things like that that make a game look more polished.

[Alwarren 2767]

Not true. AI sees through grass, i died bilion times beacuse of this, and not only me. I wish i could record gameplay, but uploading video would finish day after tomorrow with my internet AI see through grass without single problem (NOW).

 

They don't. But if they think they know you are there, they are obviously going to shoot at you. It's simply not true that AI has magic vision, they don't. They did have too high perception range for hearing, and could pinpoint you way too good by sound alone, but they do not see through grass, trees, bushes, or anything else they are not supposed to see through.

[Vasily.B 529]

I just done quick test without cup terrains loaded on Altis. They really dont see through grass (yay!), but since i load CUP-terrains they start to see magicly through it. CUP config affects on vanilla terrains?

[Greenfist 1863]

The grass can indeed block their view, but it doesn't always match what you see as a player:

Red sees me, green doesn't.

[Variable 322]

The horrible rag-doll death of Arma 3 avatars is probably one of the most serious immersion breaking issues in the game. As a matter of fact I don't see ragdoll as an advancement over Arma 2, quite the contrary. Handing over to ragdoll AFTER a proper death animation would be great.

[Vasily.B 529]

The grass can indeed block their view, but it doesn't always match what you see as a player:

Red sees me, green doesn't.

This is something i meet most often. Once they saw you, they see you untill you are dead (beacuse player isnt immprtal like on video, and they will shoot you even if they dont see you, they will exacly know your position in the grass)

[Alwarren 2767]

i load CUP-terrains they start to see magicly through it. CUP config affects on vanilla terrains?

 

They don't and no.

 

EDIT: Well, let me go back on this. We'll check it. I can't imagine though since I have CUP TP loaded and never had the impression.

[Alwarren 2767]

This is something i meet most often. Once they saw you, they see you untill you are dead (beacuse player isnt immprtal like on video, and they will shoot you even if they dont see you, they will exacly know your position in the grass)

 

AI is too good at spotting you again after they lost you, meaning that if you break line of sight they are much more likely to spot you again as opposed to when you were not spotted by them before.

[Gwynbleidd 28]

These suppressed sounds are just horrendous gwynbleidd :o

 

Don't you think that possibly the guy got the drop on you as he was alert, due to the fact you've been going room to room killing his oppo's with a really horrendously sounding suppressed weapon? :D ;)

Heh, yeah he must've really hated the weapon sound :) Though jokes aside, I didn't really mind the sound, maybe it's worse indoors.

Now for the question at hand, I think you misunderstood me. He definitely was on alert, it would be weird if he wasn't (considering the mess downstairs like you pointed out).

I'm not saying he should be completely shocked, and stunned for 2 seconds like nothing happened downstairs, I'm saying his reaction is too fast for a human, even when you're 100% expecting it, and just waiting for it to happen.

Here, found a really nice demonstration: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

You know the screen is gonna go green, you're just waiting for it to happen, but still, there are limits to your reaction. Take it for a couple of rounds, and try to go below 150ms :)

[road runner 4344]

AI and Bridges= massive issue.

[Freghar 73]

The grass can indeed block their view, but it doesn't always match what you see as a player:

Thanks, this very nicely illustrates why I have a problem with people needing to repeat that "AI doesn't see you through grass" - they may not see you initially, but once they start shooting, any tiny opening in the grass completely reveals your position, making the grass seem worthless. I wonder how this works when the AI is simulated by another client/server which doesn't render the grass at that location.

This isn't limited to grass or obstacles though, use setUnitTrait to reduce your visibility to virtually nothing, same for audibility, make it night, put an AI soldier under a lamp and walk up until they become aware and start tracking (but not shooting) you. After that, you can go back as far as you want into the darkness, but the AI will keep tracking you with 100% accuracy and if you try to fire your weapon, they will headshot you immediately (seems to be within the same frame). This might be fixed on the devbranch, we'll see soon, I guess. :)

For me personally, the biggest AI issue is (nearly?) no penalty for getting hit - unloading half a magazine of 9mm rounds into an AI isn't enough to stop it from turning 120deg and insta-killing you. All subskills at 0.5, default interp. curves, 2m distance, indoors. Even skilled players are easier to kill in CQB sometimes.

[oukej 2910]

I wonder how this works when the AI is simulated by another client/server which doesn't render the grass at that location.

The "clutter layer" that blocks raycast is precalculated, it's not dependent on the grass drawing.

This isn't limited to grass or obstacles though, use setUnitTrait to reduce your visibility to virtually nothing, same for audibility, make it night, put an AI soldier under a lamp and walk up until they become aware and start tracking (but not shooting) you. After that, you can go back as far as you want into the darkness, but the AI will keep tracking you with 100% accuracy and if you try to fire your weapon, they will headshot you immediately (seems to be within the same frame). This might be fixed on the devbranch, we'll see soon, I guess. :)

Is this based on observations on Stable build or RC? There have been many tweaks to the AI detection recently, including the tracking distance - what you mention should be exactly of the issues we've addressed.

For me personally, the biggest AI issue is (nearly?) no penalty for getting hit - unloading half a magazine of 9mm rounds into an AI isn't enough to stop it from turning 120deg and insta-killing you. All subskills at 0.5, default interp. curves, 2m distance, indoors. Even skilled players are easier to kill in CQB sometimes.

Can you pls share the scenario?

I've tried shooting an AI @ 50m with a P07, just one round. In 5 attempts it took the AI from 9s to 20s, from 8 rounds to more than one magazine, to kill me.

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

What oukej said, editor placed AI usually take around 10 - 15 seconds to spot me and land the first hit if they're looking away from me.

It's not unlikely that they go through an entire magazine before landing a hit at that distance (tested on a regular opfor rifleman as enemy).

 

Check it out yourself.

 

Cheers

[dmarkwick 261]

AI is too good at spotting you again after they lost you, meaning that if you break line of sight they are much more likely to spot you again as opposed to when you were not spotted by them before.

To be fair I'm the same :) If I spot an AI I can make some guess as to where he's most likely to be based on his previous movement. If he lies down in grass, I can still place rounds all around the area I saw him go prone into.

[metalcraze 290]

BTW BIS should check the pathfinding issue with AI and torn fences at industrial area (in particular). Unlike their counterparts on all ArmA2/Altis/Stratis maps, on Tanoa those are considered to be obstacles by AI

Plus the test mission there also shows the inability of AI to find an alternative route inside industrial area too.

 

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T119194

[Alwarren 2767]

To be fair I'm the same :) If I spot an AI I can make some guess as to where he's most likely to be based on his previous movement. If he lies down in grass, I can still place rounds all around the area I saw him go prone into.

 

Yeah, absolutely, but the AI spotting bonus lingers maybe a bit too long. I know it is hard to determine what "too long" is, but AFAIK they really get a bonus even after minutes of losing sight of you.

 

Obviously, this is all a matter of abstraction. They can't give each and every AI accurate human-like vision and hearing. The challenge is in tweaking the values so that it looks human. But then, how do you know what exactly has given you away? IIRC, carrying a launcher on your back reduces your camouflage value. So if you repeat the same test with a missile solder vs. a rifleman, things might come out different. Hearing of AI is another example, since it is not affected by environmental sounds (like the seashore sounds, running engines etc). AI hearing radio was way too good (I made night time tests without NVG's, they usually detected my by hearing a good 50-60 meters away, 30-40 when I was walking crouched). I guess that the hearing is responsible for a good deal of "AI can see through bushes" myths.

[froggyluv 2136]

 I wonder if there is a way to introduce noise pollution so it can in essence be used as camoflauge for movement. Would seem silly for enemy AI squad to easily pinpoint your smallarms during bombing raid

[serjames 357]

Or realistically during a firefight. Tunnel vision sets in and you're in binary mode

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Freghar 73]

Can you pls share the scenario?

I've tried shooting an AI @ 50m with a P07, just one round. In 5 attempts it took the AI from 9s to 20s, from 8 rounds to more than one magazine, to kill me.

The scenario can be anything involving distances from 2m to 20m, opening fire on an unaware AI - if the AI is looking your way (even with weapon down), you are basically dead unless you have a rapid-fire SMG like the Sting 9mm.

I did a few takes with P07 which hopefully illustrate what I mean (all takes recorded, no selection bias, 0.5 AI skill, 0.5 precision):

My point was that, after getting shot, a soldier shouldn't be able to just aim accurately down the sights the next second and kill the shooter. I mean - I never got hit IRL (with or without a vest) to confirm this, so it's just an opinion.

From a gameplay POV, I had several moments where an AI soldier would run past me (to my surprise), I would open automatic fire (MX rifle), hitting about 4-5 times (2-3 times weapon deflection). During that time, the AI managed to turn around and one-shot me. The AI was AWARE, but of another threat, and saw me only once I opened fire. Spotting/accuracy was 0.6 on v1.60, I believe.

I guess the core of the problem is that you cannot "suppress" or "incapacitate" (render unable to fight back due to shock) the AI in close quarters, you have to actually completely and fully kill it.

Thanks for reading. :)

[serjames 357]

Should be a shock effect incapacitating any co-ordinated retaliation. With perhaps a random chance of super-elite adrenaline as they are currently, like 1/25 chance or something

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[Vasily.B 529]

The scenario can be anything involving distances from 2m to 20m, opening fire on an unaware AI - if the AI is looking your way (even with weapon down), you are basically dead unless you have a rapid-fire SMG like the Sting 9mm.

I did a few takes with P07 which hopefully illustrate what I mean (all takes recorded, no selection bias, 0.5 AI skill, 0.5 precision):

My point was that, after getting shot, a soldier shouldn't be able to just aim accurately down the sights the next second and kill the shooter. I mean - I never got hit IRL (with or without a vest) to confirm this, so it's just an opinion.

From a gameplay POV, I had several moments where an AI soldier would run past me (to my surprise), I would open automatic fire (MX rifle), hitting about 4-5 times (2-3 times weapon deflection). During that time, the AI managed to turn around and one-shot me. The AI was AWARE, but of another threat, and saw me only once I opened fire. Spotting/accuracy was 0.6 on v1.60, I believe.

I guess the core of the problem is that you cannot "suppress" or "incapacitate" (render unable to fight back due to shock) the AI in close quarters, you have to actually completely and fully kill it.

Thanks for reading. :)

Fully Agree. If Ai is taking hit, he cannot provide such accurate fire, as before hit.

[x3kj 1247]

you don't need to be accurate to hit somebody at that distance when spraying full auto...