AI Discussion (dev branch)

[2nd ranger 282]

in the end the desired state would be that the lower skilled AI takes more time to start shooting after a distraction and then even more time the AI will still keep firing off the target. It seems it needs some tweaking ;)

So just to clarify - the intended behaviour is that after being shot, a unit should stop shooting briefly while he recovers? The lower the skill, the longer the pause before he is able to shoot?

Because right now what seems to be happening is the opposite of that. An AI with 0 skill does not pause at all after being hit. The higher the skill, the longer the pause after being hit before he starts shooting again.

[old_painless 182]

Shot at, not shot AFAICT

[OMAC 254]

As a brief diversion from the AI accuracy/suppression discussion, the issue of "stuck" AI in official missions is still very much a problem, and seriously impacts immersion. Can't there be an auto-unstick feature in the engine, or some way for a human squad leader to manually unstick his men and get them to keep up with him when on the move?

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=5443 Please vote up.

Ok, back to accuracy-suppression. :o

---------- Post added at 07:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 AM ----------

Afaict the skill of friendly AIs in Showcase Infantry is very high, so they may suffer very little to no suppression.

Do you know the skill settings of the attacking CSAT in the infantry showcase?

[R3vo 2654]

As a brief diversion from the AI accuracy/suppression discussion, the issue of "stuck" AI in official missions is still very much a problem, and seriously impacts immersion. Can't there be an auto-unstick feature in the engine, or some way for a human squad leader to manually unstick his men and get them to keep up with him when on the move?

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=5443 Please vote up.

Ok, back to accuracy-suppression. :o

---------- Post added at 07:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 AM ----------

Do you know the skill settings of the attacking CSAT in the infantry showcase?

Upvoted, and yes, this is a serious issue which makes it at least for me, currently impossible to play AI squad based mission. I have to restart more than 50% of the missions I play because of that.

[madrussian 347]

Also, suppression should not be only about aiming abilities. It should, most importantly, force units to take cover.

Agree, and I would add the following:

• AI should detect suppressive fire directionally (based in part on his knowledge of the position of the enemy suppressing him), and seek out appropriate cover to shield himself from the incoming fire, attempting to position himself accordingly.
  
• The greater the suppression inflicted upon the AI, the greater that AI's desire to seek cover should be.
  
• Most importantly, if the AI is already in cover and begins taking new suppressive fire, he should reevaluate his current cover situation. If the AI finds himself exposed to the new suppressive fire, by all means he should reposition himself around his current cover, or leave current cover if his best option is new cover nearby.
  

A tall order to effectively code all that, but curious which of these are possible or perhaps even planned (or currently implemented to some degree). Great AI improvements so far, keep going! :)

[enex 11]

I believe that majority of armies in the world have similar doctrine:

If ambushed:

Find cover if there is/Go prone if there's none

Figure out where enemy is

Win firefight with greater amount of bullets sent downrange then enemy

Now if B team flank AI that is supressed by A tean, they can't really change cover position

because suppressed team would kill them.

The greater the amount of bullets, the less can AI shoots

(In real life this happens because of taking cover, in Arma AI decrease ROF)

ROF supression mechanic should vary on:

Amount of bullets

Caliber

Distance of engagement

Edited March 20, 2015 by enex

[Brisse 78]

I believe that majority of armies in the world have similar doctrine:

If ambushed:

Find cover if there is/Go prone if there's none

Figure out where enemy is

Win firefight with greater amount of bullets sent downrange then enemy

Now if B team flank AI that is supressed by A tean, they can't really change cover position

because suppressed team would kill them.

The greater the amount of bullets, the less can AI shoots

(In real life this happens because of taking cover, in Arma AI decrease ROF)

ROF supression mechanic should vary on:

Amount of bullets

Caliber

Distance of engagement

When I was in the navy, we did a very specific drill for such scenarios.

1. Drill starts from a relaxed standing position, possibly on the move.

2. When you come under fire, immediately return fire in the general direction of the enemy.

3. Take a few steps forward and to the side at the same time as you go into a kneeling position. Keep firing.

4. A few more steps forward and to the side and then go prone. Keep firing.

That might sound very robotic, but in reality it is trained in a dynamic way and all steps are done in just a few seconds.

There are three things you need to be effective. Movement, firepower and cover. You need at least two of those at the same time to be effective in the battle. The drill I described above makes sure you are always doing two of those things at the same time.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Brisse

[enex 11]

When I was in the navy, we did a very specific drill for such scenarios.

1. Drill starts from a relaxed standing position, possibly on the move.

2. When you come under fire, immediately return fire in the general direction of the enemy.

3. Take a few steps to the side at the same time as you go into a kneeling position. Keep firing.

4. A few more steps to the side and then go prone. Keep firing.

That might sound very robotic, but in reality it is trained in a dynamic way and all steps are done in just a few seconds.

Yep, I tried to simplify procedure so that can be used as a guidance to how military around the world would react against unknown position of enemy fire.

[froggyluv 2136]

Point being: if you can't shoot straight, you maybe better run. The AI needs to shape up its movement-game during firefights; more quick sprints, more quick drops to the ground, some fast crawling, back up onto the feet, sprint!

Think about it: if AI is shaken and scared to the point that they can't shoot straight any longer, they better go search some cover to regain some calm. I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing more AI being shot in the back, unable to return fire at all (when was the last time you've seen an AI actually flee from you? No mods.).

Best statement I've seen here in a long time. This would indeed change the feeling of fighting real opponents dramatically. A few Ai mods have achieved a certain level of this but not the same as it could be with engine level implementation. Reactionary AI movement in a 'quick sense' such as sprint to cover, lateral quick sidesteps (whose animation is already ingame but unused) when confronted indoors, and the stuff said above alongside cqb banter would be great.

Speaking of banter, whatever happened to the taunts they advertised for Arma 2? Aggressive taunts, ordering of suppression, run for it, grab cover, ambush etc would also add human element. Currently way too much "Go! Im covering" no matter whats going on -make banter context driven.

Glad you guys officially added suppression -lets keep going now with their reactions to it.

[supercereal4 29]

Now that the point of AI reaction/movement has been brought up, it would be nice to see more involvement from AI team leaders. One feature that I've found to be really neat, dating back to OFP, is that within the squad, you have 2 team leaders and there are units who will keep formation with their TL and move with him. This opens the door for the AI squad to enact more realistic battle drills ex. squad takes contact, TL 1 and friends lay down a base of fire, TL 2 and friends move to flack and assault through the enemy position. Unfortunately, this is not the case (or at least, I haven't consciously observed often/recently enough to recognize it) The thing that prohibits this is that the TLs seem to be too attached staying in formation with the SL, in the same way that the average soldier is focused to staying in formation with the TL. IMO, the TLs should move more independently from the SL in firefights (basically when they're in combat mode). Then their fireteam members should follow their TL. Or, perhaps when the SL issues movement orders to the TLs, the soldiers in the TLs' fireteams should follow the order as well, moving off of the TL.

All in all, there is potential for more realistic, complex squad-level maneuvers and drills if the TL AI/unique role is more utilized/fleshed out.

[KeyCat 131]

After more testing with todays build I have to correct myself since I stated the opposit yesterday. Shooting with silencer do work and makes the AI act quite believable and confused (only tested to shot outside their field of vision so far). They don't home in you nearly as much and can be way off in their percived enemy position/direction, but if they get close they will spot you in a way no human are able to.

If it's possible to make the AI react in almost the same way when shoting one of them without silencer would probably be a big step in the right direction but maybe that unbalance something in the other end...

Before I upload my test mission I'm gonna post two screen shots and see if anyone are able to spot where I'm hiding...

1. This is what the AI would see if they turn around and looked in my general direction.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tpqpnvhg9kvmsmw/A3_1.43.129826_spot_the_sniper_01.png

2. Pretty much the same view but a bit closer.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lcm1a62et2gkwlq/A3_1.43.129826_spot_the_sniper_02.png

Can you? :p

/KC

Edited March 20, 2015 by KeyCat

[-Coulum- 35]

I am playing on expert Ai. The aiming error is definitely too harsh on the Ai while suppressed. I tried to demonstrate just how bad they miss by when suppressed:

This is a CSAT Rifleman at 100m. As you can see, he's missing by up to a dozen metres and sometimes shooting the ground right in-front of him. I feel that's too much. In this situation I would expect the shots to be no more than 3 metres off target. If I were to adjust the aiming error due to suppression, I would make it around 30% of what it is now. Even then I think it might still be too harsh.

We actually tried to achieve the opposite - one random shot shouldn't rly suppress the AI. But a sustained fire is what puts you under pressure. With different calibers and target unit's skill the challenge is to find the right rate of fire to keep the enemy suppressed while not wasting all of your ammo at once. While in one situation three 5.56 rounds, within 2 seconds, in about 6m from the target are enough to make the AI combat inefficient couple of seconds, some other AI may just not even unless you keep spraying it or use other means of persuation.

I understand what you're going for then. My concern is the "sustained" rate of fire you need to suppress is too high. Especially for 5.56's or 6.5s, keeping fire superiority will drain you of ammo very fast. Anything less than continuous bursts of fire seems to really have little effect. This does introduce a cool logistical challenge, but that challenge comes a bit premature if you ask me. I believe that realistically it is possible to effectively "suppress" an enemy with smaller rounds without using such a volume of ammunition. More should always be better, but slow steady accurate fire should be a viable suppression option as well.

Ideally first contact would require the heavy volume of fire it does now, but then after that, slower (accurate shot every couple of seconds) would be sufficient to keep the enemy in a stressful state. Does that stray from your guys' vision? Perhaps making the proximity of the passing bullets have more weight might help achieve this balance (initial shooting is less accurate, high ROF required, as enemy are spotted shooting becomes more accurate so lower ROF is required). Thoughts?

Can you?

Nope. But I would give those high grasses a good hose down.

Regarding ai behaviour while suppressed, I get the feeling that its on the devs' wishlist. They know how it could be improved. Its just a matter of doing it.

[bonham 10]

Is there a reason (besides balancing?) that explains why the AI can fire the SPH (Scorcher, Sochor) faster than the player? It's 6 seconds for the AI and 8 seconds for the player.

[das attorney 858]

Hi Oukej,

I found these in my rpt earlier and wanted to mention them. Are these genuine errors or nothing to worry about?

15:10:50 O Bravo 2-1:2: moving in direct condition failed, dist 18.1063

and

15:11:29 Subgroup O Alpha 4-3:7 (0x804ff920) - network ID 2:13461
15:11:29  - leader from another subgroup

I've googled them but not much came up. Let me know if you need a repro. It might be hard as they occur sporadically but I will try to get one if you need it. The second one is to do with merging/joining groups I think.

Thx

[oukej 2911]

I tried to demonstrate just how bad they miss by when suppressed:

Some unwanted behavior making the AI fire only in the extremes of the imprecision cone slipped in :/

slow steady accurate fire should be a viable suppression option

It should be - by trading quantity X quality X proximity.

It's now possible to keep the AI suppressed by putting a 6.5 bullet approx. almost every second closer than 2m from the AI.

Is there a reason (besides balancing?) that explains why the AI can fire the SPH (Scorcher, Sochor) faster than the player? It's 6 seconds for the AI and 8 seconds for the player.

Not really, caused by reloadSpeed. Can be considered a bug.

Can you?

Spill it! :) (I have to admit that camouflages and especially ghilie suits are difficult to do right. We have to do a lot of simplification and approximation for the AI, so there will always be some "cheating" or "blind" AI)

[chortles 263]

All in all, there is potential for more realistic, complex squad-level maneuvers and drills if the TL AI/unique role is more utilized/fleshed out.

This'd probably be easier if (oh boy here we go) Arma had VBS3's support for "echelons" instead of Arma's "single-level" grouping plus High Command.

[OMAC 254]

I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing more AI being shot in the back, unable to return fire at all (when was the last time you've seen an AI actually flee from you? No mods.).

I see AI flee quite frequently, like when I just played Infantry Showcase (described earlier), I killed one of 2 spotters, and the remaining one high-tailed it away from me down into valley and up other side. Only when he had a clear shot with some cover did he turn and engage me. Quite realistic. Unless allowFleeing is set to 0, hassled AI will indeed flee, and have since at least Arma 2. I wonder if the new suppression decreases courage value, which would in turn make units more likely to flee?

[supercereal4 29]

This'd probably be easier if (oh boy here we go) Arma had VBS3's support for "echelons" instead of Arma's "single-level" grouping plus High Command.

One can dream. The squad/fireteam concept could use some love so maybe we could get "real" squad formations like Squad Line, Fireteam Wedge, etc.

[-Coulum- 35]

Some unwanted behavior making the AI fire only in the extremes of the imprecision cone slipped in :/

Well it is good that this is not intended behaviour. I look forward to seeing how it works when this is fixed.

It's now possible to keep the AI suppressed by putting a 6.5 bullet approx. almost every second closer than 2m from the AI.

And that's the thing. 1 round a second is a high rate of fire to be maintaining. And for a 5.56 its going to need to be even higher. Teams will be running out of ammo in short order.

Basically I think that in the "quantity X quality X proximity" relationship you mention, proximity should have more weight/be more important. A shot that wizzes past an Ai's head should cause more than a single second of stress, regardless if its 5.56, 6.5 or 7.62. Even just making it two seconds instead of one would make it a tonne more reasonable. Just my opinion of course.

Edited March 21, 2015 by -Coulum-

[chortles 263]

I see AI flee quite frequently, like when I just played Infantry Showcase (described earlier), I killed one of 2 spotters, and the remaining one high-tailed it away from me down into valley and up other side. Only when he had a clear shot with some cover did he turn and engage me. Quite realistic. Unless allowFleeing is set to 0, hassled AI will indeed flee, and have since at least Arma 2. I wonder if the new suppression decreases courage value, which would in turn make units more likely to flee?

Not sure about that, but the courage sub-skill affects recovery time from a distraction, and according to the BIKI also the morale of that unit's subordinates if any, while the commanding sub-skill "Affects how quickly recognized targets are shared with the group (Higher value = faster reporting)".

One can dream. The squad/fireteam concept could use some love so maybe we could get "real" squad formations like Squad Line, Fireteam Wedge, etc.

The VBS3 Editor Manual instructions depict Company Column, Platoon Line, Squad Wedge... TL;DR: VBS3 uses empty Groups called Higher Echelons instead of the High Command modules, with a given Higher Echelon being commanded by the lead unit of its "command" group (by default the first group attached to a specific Higher Echelon), an arrangement which I find less confusing than trying to work 3+ level HC (i.e. the company-level formation described here). You can see a company-level VBS3 ORBAT in action here:

[bonham 10]

Not really, caused by reloadSpeed. Can be considered a bug.

Ok, I created a ticket for this, #22846.

[OMAC 254]

It seems apparent that 1) the aiming error introduced to AI by suppression and/or 2) the aiRateOfFireDispersion param default settings degrade AI effectiveness far too severely. I played Win episode on Veteran using 1.40 stable, and I barely fired 20 shots, so it looks like the ROFdispersion change is having a very profound effect, regardless of suppression which hadn't been implemented yet. I didn't fire a single shot in Resurgent West against opfor infantry when flanking Neochori. The only engagement was in Moral Fiber against the few opfor at the chapel early in mission. In Preventive Diplomacy, I fired two shots total when taking Solar station. Then there is the sudden easiness of formally brutal Infantry Showcase with suppression. New testing with dev builds suggest to me that both the effects of 1) and 2) above should be significantly decreased, or else the game becomes far too easy overall, even on high difficulties with high AI skill. BI should ask the playable content team who made the campaign and showcases to play their missions using new dev builds and see what they think.

As I have written before, it is better to err slightly on the side of implementing new features that improve the overall game rather than insure balance of official missions in all cases. But even in new, custom missions, the AI, even with skill=1, seem too lame.

I also noticed that, when suppressed, AI with skill=0.2 stand around too much, not firing. They should stay prone and crawl to cover when really pinned down, or run like hell to cover when first engaged. AI with higher skill behave better, stay prone longer, and return fire better. But their aim is nerfed too much now. As others have written, when pinned down, LMG gunners should spray the living hell out of your sector with lousy aim.

[R3vo 2654]

Has anyone else having issues with dead AI speaking ?

Video

[KeyCat 131]

Nope. But I would give those high grasses a good hose down.

Yea, it's somewhere in the tall "elephant grass" and that's the only available vegetation you can really use to hide from AI.

Spill it! :) (I have to admit that camouflages and especially ghilie suits are difficult to do right. We have to do a lot of simplification and approximation for the AI, so there will always be some "cheating" or "blind" AI)

I can only imagine how difficult things like this is to get right and that there has to be some simplifications etc. to make it work within AI's available CPU cycles, in MP as well as not unbalancing the game in some other end.

That being said I'm not "fixated" about this just because of the sniper role. The goal of my feedback - hope you take it like that and not constant "whining" - is to hopefully get the AI detection abilities - both vision and hearing - more within the believable range instead of knowing that they "always" will detect you no matter how you approach them.

Enough of my rambling...

Here is where I'm hiding in that particular screen shoot...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h09lnojt65whabt/A3_1.43.129826_spot_the_sniper_03.png

Looking with FLIR camera you can see only a few white pixels hinting about the location.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6nh33g1it2l5jfs/A3_1.43.129826_spot_the_sniper_04.png

Spotting someone (ghillie or no ghille) in above scenario within ~20 sec (here I notice an improvement, a couple of months ago they spotted you almost instantly after turning around) after hearing 1-2 shots from behind is humanly impossible. Even if you scanned the direction for 30+ minutes you would not spot him. Of course a human brain would have the possibility to do a "best guess" just Column did and go searching the area.

That's pretty much what the AI do now if you fire from the same position with the silencer on. They react, some go prone, they act kinda confused and start scanning the area and after a while move out to search in a "best guess" direction which is more often than not wrong. That feels much more believable reaction after hearing a few shots fired from behind your back.

My feeling is that after firing (without silencer) the AI are able to "triangulate" your position way to good with their hearing and then know exactly where to look, if in AWARE/COMBAT mode and there is a single pixel of your body that "shines" thru the vegetation and have LOS to some of them they spot you. Of course I am just guessing here so it's probably wrong but hopefully my point gets across.

Edit: Added test mission.

Test mission

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzlropfgxaquitf/A3_AI_Terminators_2.zip

Instructions how I tested:

1. Go prone and remove the silencer from the weapon.

2. Crawl strait ahead a few meters in the tall grass so you barely see the enemy thru scope.

3. Kill the enemy standing right to the AT soldier with one or max two shots.

4. Directly after firing look strait down into the ground to keep your head down and don't move.

5. Press ESC and select camera to observe the AI.

Now do the same with the silencer on.

NOTE: Since I've used "allowDamage false" you won't die even if they hit you in the head. I use this to easier follow AI behavior.

The AI skill in the editor is default when placing an infantry group (min 0.20 - max 0.46). My settings in *.Arma3Profile is:

skillAI=0.75;

precisionAI=0.2;

If you have other settings giving other results please share...

/KC

Edited March 21, 2015 by KeyCat

[2nd ranger 282]

Has anyone else having issues with dead AI speaking ?

Video

Yeah, this happens all the time in MP.