AI Discussion (dev branch)

[Variable 322]

There are researches going on. Concerned is a soft word.

That's great to hear, thanks for the update Oukej!

I wouldn't say so, things need to be kept simple, easy and fast to reach. "Hold Fire" & "Return Fire" ROE modes do however make sense. I can imagine situations when you don't want the AI to return fire at all (retreating in the dark and giving up positions by the muzzleflashes ...)

Certainly. Three modes should be availble:

1. Fire at will (not to be confused with engage at will!!)

2. Return fire only

3. Hold fire no matter what

[froggyluv 2136]

I can imagine situations when you don't want the AI to return fire at all (retreating in the dark and giving up positions by the muzzleflashes ...)

Actually there are many reasons you may need to quickly disengage or not engage at all. Armor or air threat inbound but no ability (or desire) to counter; outnumbered; a piece of terrain nearby that would greatly benefit or shield your group etc.....The ability to round up your group and get them to run hard at command would open up volumes of new tactical gameplay.

[enex 11]

that is why sometimes you hear ROE weapons red/yellow/green

Red do not fire even if fired upon, yellow if you get shot at return fire

and green fire at will.

Know that this is are very basic rules which would correspond to riflemen

not opening up on enemy as soon as he sees enemy element (despite weapons green)

he would rather communicate to the others and move to better position and engage as

team if CO/game plan allows it.

[lazerath 10]

I don't disagree with you regarding what happened (i.e AI opened fire). I was only trying to explain WHY your AI opened fire. My disagreement is about what should be expected from the AI when it is detected. Because AI does not just arbitrary overrules the hold fire command, it does that only when it sees (or senses due to AI broken detection capabilities) an enemy that detected it. That's just a fact.

Regarding the "Fire" command - This orders the AI to fire only at the unit it targets, and immediately assume hold fire right after.

Sorry Bud.. My bad. As I had mentioned, I was very tired (suffering from insomnia for the past two months) and it appears as though I completely misunderstood you (hence my previous disclaimer in a post.

PS: If any of this comes across snarky, rude etc. Its not meant to be, I'm tired and ma brain is not working too well...

No hard feelings I hope :o

There are researches going on. Concerned is a soft word.

Thats why multiple "Hold Fire" options would be the Ideal Solution.

I wouldn't say so, things need to be kept simple, easy and fast to reach. "Hold Fire" & "Return Fire" ROE modes do however make sense. I can imagine situations when you don't want the AI to return fire at all (retreating in the dark and giving up positions by the muzzleflashes ...)

But it would still be kept simple, easy and fast. There are multiple ways this could be implemented where it was not a cumbersome endeavour for the player to initiate the different modes. I also feel that there should be at a BARE minimum 3 modes. Variable has made excellent sense in what he has suggested and if it could only be changed to three modes then I would assume (Yes assume) that most, if not every player here would agree that what variable has suggested would be best (at a minimum anyhow).

PS: Wouldn't a change from simply, "Hold Fire" to "Hold Fire" & "Return Fire" essentially be the same as "Multiple, Hold Fire modes"?:p (Return Fire being the same as, Hold Fire unless Fired Upon!)

Certainly. Three modes should be available:

1. Fire at will (not to be confused with engage at will!!)

2. Return fire only

3. Hold fire no matter what

This would definitely be a huge improvement! While this may not cover all the different aspects I could think of it would make things 200% better in regards to control of the players AI. At a minimum I would suggest implementing what Variable has said here. This would definitely help to solve what I would consider a MAJOR FLAW of the Player AI control currently in Arma 3 as well as Arma 2 (don't remember how it was in Operation Flashpoint.... been to many years since I played that game).

Actually there are many reasons you may need to quickly disengage or not engage at all. Armor or air threat inbound but no ability (or desire) to counter; outnumbered; a piece of terrain nearby that would greatly benefit or shield your group etc.....The ability to round up your group and get them to run hard at command would open up volumes of new tactical gameplay.

Yup, Couldn't have said it better! How about a spec ops force moving in to stealth kill/wipe out a group of insurgents. You also wouldn't want your squad giving away their position because you snuck up and killed a enemy and left your team back a ways to cover you if something went wrong, but instead they start shooting because your first shot missed/or did not instantly kill the enemy and you take a few more..then your group opens up like the Fourth of July (or First of July if your from Canada like me :P )

that is why sometimes you hear ROE weapons red/yellow/green

Red do not fire even if fired upon, yellow if you get shot at return fire

and green fire at will.

Know that this is are very basic rules which would correspond to riflemen

not opening up on enemy as soon as he sees enemy element (despite weapons green)

he would rather communicate to the others and move to better position and engage as

team if CO/game plan allows it.

That right there somes it up perfectly for me!

I want to be able to tell the AI when to shoot in certain circumstances. Its not all about letting them shoot wildly all the time...! It depends on the situation.... The MISSION at hand!

Good posts everyone!

Edit: Don't forget, the AI Auto-Danger mode NEEDS to be REMOVED! That is also a MAJOR problem with trying to get your squad to move or follow you in a timely manner! It can and does completely ruin missions that are on time limits and game play in general! I don't need to waste 5, 10, 20, 30 minutes waiting for the damn AI to get out of Stealth/Danger mode when there are NO enemies around... Even if there are Enemies, it makes it impossible to move quickly as a group! VERY BAD!

PS: There are other things about the AI that are very good too though, just want to mention that as well ;-)

Edited October 23, 2014 by lazerath
Forgot to Re-mention the AI-Auto Danger Implementation

[Tyl3r99 41]

so does this mean hopefully we will get a stop firing and ***ing run option???

when retreating... you may aswell leave the AI behind because they wont retreat properly

[Variable 322]

What keeps the AI from moving fast is not really them firing, it's their bounding over-watch routine and their stance repeated change when they are on their self-declared danger mode that can't be canceled by their player-leader.

[lazerath 10]

yup... ands its frickin retarded that you, their leader cannot change that... :(

edit: btw.. just had my damn AI open fire again while on "hold fire" when i was sneaking up to kill some enemy ai..... had to freakin reload because they got me and them killed because of it.....

when do we get a darn 'Absolutely No Fire" option?

Edited October 26, 2014 by lazerath
Forgot to mentio another AI miss fire!

[Variable 322]

Even if you had an "absolutely no fire" option it would not make any difference in the case you described because, as explained, the AI opened fire because it was detected and it sensed it. The AI opening fire is not the reason for your detection, it is the result.

[Brisse 78]

Anyone else think AI is a bit careless when firing? If there's a friendly standing right in their line of fire, in front of the enemy, they don't seem to care, and friendly fire happens a bit more often than it should.

In my opinion, there should be some rules they have to follow, for example, if friendly is within a 45-90 degree cone from where the AI's barrel is pointing, then they should hold fire. IRL soldiers have to follow such rules so it should make perfect sense.

[2nd ranger 282]

Sometimes they begin firing before they've even turned to face the target, and if the unit has an automatic weapon that usually means spraying a burst in a 90 degree arc.

[Brisse 78]

Yep, there's that!

Then there is AI drivers trying to navigate vehicles through formation's of friendlies, and often kill and/or injure several friendlies as a result.

Friendly AI is just as dangerous as the enemy! :)

[x3kj 1247]

There should be a "return fire" option which only allows AI to fire if fired upon... just shooting because somebody detected them (how do they even know that!) is less then ideal in some situations.

This should be the standard behaviour if you set hold fire. Automatically open fire IF fired upon, but not any sooner.

Sometimes they begin firing before they've even turned to face the target

Also happens with turret mounted vehicle weapons... they kill their target in first or second shot, and turn to default position while continuing their predefined burst amount... They should not change firing direction until they finished their burst.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Fennek

[lazerath 10]

Even if you had an "absolutely no fire" option it would not make any difference in the case you described because, as explained, the AI opened fire because it was detected and it sensed it. The AI opening fire is not the reason for your detection, it is the result.

I mentioned what happened because it is getting to the point of being extremely aggravating to me now. I also know and understand why they fired as we've already discussed that at length. However, having a "Absolutely NO Fire" mode would have made a big difference. Just because the AI detects you does NOT mean that they automatically fire at you (How I've experienced this). It seems to be somewhat dependent on your proximity to them but that still doesn't matter to me. I simply would like BIS to implement a (Preferably) "No Fire" mode or a (2nd Choice) "Return Fire Only" mode.

I'd also like them to remove that damn "Auto Danger" mode from the AI. So all of us who play with AI in Single player, Co-op and Multiplayer don't have to deal with all the issues that arise from whats been mentioned ;-)

Certainly. Three modes should be availble:

1. Fire at will (not to be confused with engage at will!!)

2. Return fire only

3. Hold fire no matter what

I personally feel that Option 2 & 3 would have made a difference! But thats just my opinion ;-)

Anyone else think AI is a bit careless when firing? If there's a friendly standing right in their line of fire, in front of the enemy, they don't seem to care, and friendly fire happens a bit more often than it should.

In my opinion, there should be some rules they have to follow, for example, if friendly is within a 45-90 degree cone from where the AI's barrel is pointing, then they should hold fire. IRL soldiers have to follow such rules so it should make perfect sense.

Yup, I had one of my AI shoot his teammate right in the back of the head last night. I stood there in shock for a moment because I've seen my AI get team killed before, but that was the first time I actually saw one of my AI shoot another one of my AI standing in front of him (about 4-8 feet ingame) right in the back of the head while trying to shoot an Enemy AI 180-220 meters away.

Sometimes they begin firing before they've even turned to face the target, and if the unit has an automatic weapon that usually means spraying a burst in a 90 degree arc.

I will have to watch for this, usually I am to busy dealing with other issues so I haven't noticed this (never looked for it before either)!

Yep, there's that!

Then there is AI drivers trying to navigate vehicles through formation's of friendlies, and often kill and/or injure several friendlies as a result.

Friendly AI is just as dangerous as the enemy! :)

I've experienced this ever since Arma 2. A couple things I have found that help a little bit in Arma 3 with commanding troops in vehicles are the following.

Player in control of lead vehicle, 2-3 AI driven vehicles in players AI squad need to be set to the following formations.

1. Formation Column: Seems to help with AI being a little better at not running over AI ground troops as they follow a little further apart from each other.

2. Formation File: AI do not seem to get lost (having to ask for your position all the time) but this makes driving with AI Drivers following you very nerve racking. They will constantly play bumper cars with you, They will knock you off the road, They seem to run over AI Foot Troops more.

Just what I have noticed in my game anyhow ;-)

There should be a "return fire" option which only allows AI to fire if fired upon... just shooting because somebody detected them (how do they even know that!) is less then ideal in some situations.

This should be the standard behaviour if you set hold fire. Automatically open fire IF fired upon, but not any sooner.

Thats the exact point I have been trying to make ;-) You sum it up nicely!

Also happens with turret mounted vehicle weapons... they kill their target in first or second shot, and turn to default position while continuing their predefined burst amount... They should not change firing direction until they finished their burst.

Again, this is something I have not noticed but I also haven't been watching for it. I'll definitely keep a look out for this as well!

Good discussion everyone, lets just hope the Developers who have been watching and commenting on this subject will actually do something about this and fix it soon (as in yesterday)!

Cheers

[killzone_kid 1331]

Noticed AI driver randomly checks mirrors, and that's fine, only it doesn't check them when turning. I doubt he would have passed driving test driving like this :) Seriously though, before each turn it would have been cool if AI was forced to check appropriate mirror. Check left mirror -> left turn, check right mirror -> right turn.

[froggyluv 2136]

Noticed AI driver randomly checks mirrors, and that's fine, only it doesn't check them when turning. I doubt he would have passed driving test driving like this :) Seriously though, before each turn it would have been cool if AI was forced to check appropriate mirror. Check left mirror -> left turn, check right mirror -> right turn.

If I had all of eternity trapped in a jail cell with nothing but Arma3 allowed I would have never noticed this.

[chrismgtis 1]

Alright, so I've mentioned this to a certain developer a few times. I've spoken to a lot of other players about it since Arma 2 (and nothing has changed in Arma 3). The developers, if one's opinion is any indication, feel that the AI are perfectly fine as they are or "it's too hard to fix" more or less. That seems to be the opinion.

AI are not realistic. They are not even fun. For most, outside of missions like Altis Life, we require AI in our missions, whether playing co-op, warfare... it doesn't matter. This is not a pure PVP deathmatch/TDM game. In fact I can't say I've ever played a mission outside of Altis Life or other similar ones that have no AI that players have to face in "combat". Games have had AI in them for decades, otherwise we'd have been playing against nothing until multiplayer came around and then it would be only against actual players.

From the experiences I've had since Arma 2, I know that most, if not 90% of players feel this way about the AI. They are nothing short of 360 degree spinning aimbots that are more or less all knowing. The nature of Arma makes it impossible to raise your weapon, a rifle, an anti-tank weapon, turn a turret, etc in time to respond to an AI's attack. If they don't know that you're coming up behind them, the moment you pass from behind the corner of that building they have spun around and fired on you. You can't bring up your weapon, reticule, scope or whatever the case may be in time to respond. They know you're there even if their back is turned almost all of the time. As soon as the first bullet comes out of your weapon you can rest assured that they will have spun around on you immediately and fired accurately.

Not to mention, AI don't follow orders worth a damn, they can't drive, they can't shoot (unless of course they're shooting at you instead of your AI - then they're Clint Eastwood).

It was a pain in my *** when I had to deal with it myself, but in multiplayer I've noticed the last few years how many people rage quit games and empty out servers because of this and it's getting ridiculous. The developers need to take note and actually do something about it, instead of creating such famously bad AI in their games. Hell, it's one thing when the game is so famous for its bad physics - tanks that randomly fly 20 feet in the air or explode when they hit a wooden pole (or simply just kill the driver). At least those quirks are kind of funny at times.

Two Arma titles in and many years later I'm still beta testing these games for a developer that will never fix the issues in the first place.

Edited November 4, 2014 by chrismgtis

[mamasan8 11]

AI or Artificial Idiots...

If they could drive a tank and actually use roads once in a while.

Worst is when they get stuck driving against a wall or similar but they still step on the gas time after time. Stuck forever. Until you give em an order to drive in the opposite direction. Why isn't that the default AI action? It is in every other game.

Either AI is stooped like a stone or they are terminators.

Of course I put AI in the gunner seat, every time. But I'm driving. And that is probably 5% of whats wrong with the AI.

[chrismgtis 1]

AI or Artificial Idiots...

If they could drive a tank and actually use roads once in a while.

Worst is when they get stuck driving against a wall or similar but they still step on the gas time after time. Stuck forever. Until you give em an order to drive in the opposite direction. Why isn't that the default AI action? It is in every other game.

Either AI is stooped like a stone or they are terminators.

Of course I put AI in the gunner seat, every time. But I'm driving. And that is probably 5% of whats wrong with the AI.

There are so many things wrong with that situation that annoys me. It's a burdening process to switch to the gunner seat especially when your AI either decides to randomly start driving in whatever direction it pleases, destroying your ability to aim: now you're dead... or you accidentally step out and then they immediately run over you... or etc etc.

Getting AI to actually fire anything but the MG on a target is impossible 95% of the time before you're dead, because the enemy AI, well they're always aimbots that nearly never miss. Yet your own AI is useless. One solution I had in the past is to sit in a tank 1200m away and take out targets that way, but even that doesn't work very well most of the time. As soon as you expose your tank, you're dead even from that distance, or after the first shot, you had better be in a position to move behind something in a split second since it will take about 1.0 second before the other armor has nailed you (assuming you actually managed to kill one). If you're on the gun and you tell AI to back up, they move forward instead or start driving like a drunk. Then you're dead.

And yea, I've sent vehicles out so many times only to have them drive straight into a ditch and get stuck, completely avoid roads or actually go in the opposite direction for whatever reason, completely ignoring the orders.

Edited November 4, 2014 by chrismgtis

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

As someone who has the privilege to be able to spectate public large scale coop scenarios (60+ players), I can say that in some aspects the AI acts well and in some cases not.

Some behaviours are absolutely spot-on.

An example of this is infantry behaviour when an enemy helicopter doing a low flyover:

AI will get down on their belly, look toward the sky, track the target and fire off a few shots.

Human players will get down on their belly, look toward the sky, track the target and fire off a few shots.

Another one I am often amazed at is AI use of cover in urban areas. They make good use of the lean stances (usually).

The tanks suspended in midair and exploding from collision with a tree hasn't been in the game for some time, those were resolved in the beta and then the simulation issue that crept in in 1.18 was resolved by 1.24 or 1.26.

The two most frustrating aspects of AI for me are:

1. Driving. Individual vehicles have to prioritize their own position on the road higher, with respect to their position in a group formation. Driving between two buildings and getting stuck because they're trying to regain formation, or some such issue, is very frustrating for scenario design.

2. Firing habits when CPU is heavily loaded. AI act different when CPU is heavily loaded compared to when CPU is doing well. Whether that is intended or consequential, I don't know. When CPU is loaded (5-10 server FPS), they fire less. Tanks stop using their main gun as often, especially against infantry and air targets, suppression FSM of Autoriflemen is no longer engaged, and many other such things. I also would like a mod-free ability to get AI AT Riflemen to fire on air targets, and for infantry to fire on MRAPs with their ~6.5mm primary weapon.

I can forgive a lot due to the complexity of designing AI, especially when they have already something that 'kinda works'. Tweaking AI can always have negative repercussions, such as accidentally breaking something, or fixing something that results in a critical problem further down the chain. Those are very real risks, and making adjustments don't always have positive impact, despite best intentions. So there is a level of conservatism that rightly creeps in when poking at AI code.

Also I think scenario designers should develop with 'dumb' AI in mind. Some desires are pie-in-the-sky and trying to script some complex event that the AI struggles with, will make both the AI and your scenario look bad.

--

From what I've seen, the best use of AI is in missions like BECTI where the meat of the gameplay is in TvT, but there are still AI to add filler and ambience to the scenario. The AI play a non-critical role to their flaws are not the focus of attention. In scenarios where AI are put under the microscope and are expected to behave like humans, issues arise and your scenario can suffer as a result.

__

As an aside, funny story :)

For a long time on I&A server, I had access to Zeus module without others knowing. Sometimes I would spawn some AI and 'Take Control' and follow players around when server was sparsely populated to give them some support. I was human pretending to be AI. The human soldiers did not know that the AI was controlled by human. I walked and chose stances like an AI so the illusion was good. They began giving voice commands over Direct Channel to the AI (me) and got the desired responses, such as "Look west". "Engage that target on the ridge". They were unaware that is was actually a human, and started to get creeped out by how human-like it acted.

Perhaps its for the best that AI don't behave too much like humans! :)

Also, adding a Curator element to your scenario will smooth the rough edges of AI behavior, and can guide the AI aspect of the scenario to produce a more fulfilling experience. I am surprised these days if scenarios do not have a Curator element.

All in all, I think the AI in A3 is second to none, but there is much to be desired out of AI in general. I think the best thing BI could do for A3 scenario designers is to allow us more engine commands and deeper level access to the AI code, so we can better simulate our own AI behaviours.

Edited November 4, 2014 by MDCCLXXVI

[chrismgtis 1]

This is all with nearly no CPU load. AI are very frustrating for most players, causing most of them to rage quit in under 30 minutes, if not 5. Tanks do still kill players from hitting a pole at 10mph. Tanks still randomly fly into the air. Etc. These are things I've witnessed in the past week. Though that's unrelated to AI. AI is mostly broken and unrealistic. When they actually do what they should, it's the exception. Yea, AI go prone and fire, but then they refuse to stand the **** up and they go prone because you told them to attack a target 3 miles away, so they never actually get there. You tell them to stand up. They might actually listen, but if they actually get to the target, it's a miracle either way.

It's nothing short of a game of just "dealing with the BS" and trying to have fun, along with learning to basically play the game in an unrealistic way by learning AI's quirks and trying to get around them with silly little tactics that don't make any sense. Those times when things seem do go somewhat well for 30 minutes, your fun is suddenly ruined by a bug or AI getting you killed because they are completely useless.

If BI wants to sell us a beta, fine. I'm still playing one. I was playing Arma 2 in beta until I picked up Arma 3. The fact that they don't seem to address these issues is what irritates me. Address them and work on them, instead of never addressing these issues to such extent that they still exist in the next game. I can't imagine a more important issue to address in this game that I've personally come across than the AI. I can deal with vehicles randomly exploding, ending a 12 hour session game because the HQ just destroyed itself for no reason. Those little quirks are kind of funny sometimes. Whatever. The AI is a problem I've dealt with since Arma 2 and I would bet my entire bank account that it's an issue that existed in Arma 1 and probably OFP. It just needs to be addressed. I can't even play with actual people for very long because it pisses them off and they rage quit.

Edited November 4, 2014 by chrismgtis

[chrismgtis 1]

More BS from AI (and this is just from the past hour):

- Getting aimbotted by an APC from 1900m

- AI refusing to get in mortar while standing 5 feet away

- AI in AT defenses killing their own team

Crap like this and the neverending 10,000 other problems with AI in this game is why it's goddamn impossible to populate a server that isn't 100% player based.

[killzone_kid 1331]

You can always disable aimbot by giving AI lower skill, so this is not a problem. I had AI shooting at me frm 20 m and bullets landed everywhere but me. There is clearly a way, via mission config, server config and just scripting.

[Variable 322]

More BS from AI (and this is just from the past hour):

- Getting aimbotted by an APC from 1900m

- AI refusing to get in mortar while standing 5 feet away

- AI in AT defenses killing their own team

Crap like this and the neverending 10,000 other problems with AI in this game is why it's goddamn impossible to populate a server that isn't 100% player based.

post your precisionAI and skillAI settings and we will help you reach a balanced AI.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

More BS from AI (and this is just from the past hour):

- Getting aimbotted by an APC from 1900m

- AI refusing to get in mortar while standing 5 feet away

- AI in AT defenses killing their own team

Crap like this and the neverending 10,000 other problems with AI in this game is why it's goddamn impossible to populate a server that isn't 100% player based.

I would like to see any evidence of you getting shot by anything from 1900m. I have never seen an AI land vehicle engage another land vehicle past 1km, and trust me when I say I have spent quite a lot of time observing AI behavior. I have seen unscripted ZSU-39 engage air targets out to 3km but only after acquiring a lock when the target was under 1km, and firing while holding that lock and a good knowsAbout.

[alky_lee 279]

I would like to see any evidence of you getting shot by anything from 1900m. I have never seen an AI land vehicle engage another land vehicle past 1km, and trust me when I say I have spent quite a lot of time observing AI behavior. I have seen unscripted ZSU-39 engage air targets out to 3km but only after acquiring a lock when the target was under 1km, and firing while holding that lock and a good knowsAbout.

I was in a T100 engaging infantry from a range of 1200-1500m and thought that I was safe. The next thing I got hit by an AT round and there weren't any other enemies closer. I have tested this in the editor and AT soldiers are quite happy to engage from 1.5km away. They don't always spot a target at that distance, but once they get engaged they will quite happily respond.