AI Discussion (dev branch)

[SavageCDN 231]

Really great to see this thread and conversation with Devs re: AI. We understand it is a complicated system done by someone else and that documentation is scarce.. but as it has been mentioned already there are some IMO "simple" things that can be done to improve the situation that are already done by mods in A2:

- area fire

- suppression

- finding nearby cover

upvoted

Better to upvote this ticket as it is already assigned and has more votes:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3233

edit: yeah I did both as well tyl3r99 ;)

Edited July 25, 2013 by SavageCDN

[Tyl3r99 41]

voted that too +1

Better to upvote this ticket as it is already assigned and has more votes:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3233

[benedykt 10]

AI and animations with recent beta version are uneccaptable for me. Soldiers just crouching and crawling all the time even in urban environment. It's just stupid. Please BI bring back AI from Alpha if you're going to go this way or maybe leave that for moders.

Regards

[Shagulon 1]

AI and animations with recent beta version are uneccaptable for me. Soldiers just crouching and crawling all the time even in urban environment. It's just stupid. Please BI bring back AI from Alpha if you're going to go this way or maybe leave that for moders.

Regards

Not much to debate here then... It is all WIP mate.

Back to constructive criticism - there is indeed a lot of advancing via crawling. While this can make sense in say the combined arms showcase I played to test, as the post above mentions this isn't want you want in urban warfare. There also needs to be some more variation.

I know you haven't really started messing with vehicle AI yet, but all the vehicles in the showcase were lost in the first minutes every attempt. Vehicles are valuable assets and should engage in relative safety. I know the vehicles are scripted for the mission, but something to consider.

[f2k sel 164]

Just looking at a few things.

When static and firing at 50m or less they do see more accurate, died every time without them having to reload 3 or 4 times.

They still can't hit you if your moving around them though.

It can take anything between 2-4 seconds before they react to shots being fired.

At around 50m they turn very slowly taking another 2-3 secs however at around 100m plus they sometimes turn in a split second.

It proves they can turn quickly.

From what other are saying about how good the AI are at distance and how poor at close range it sounds as if the system is working backwards.

Edited July 25, 2013 by F2k Sel

[Tyl3r99 41]

AI and animations with recent beta version are uneccaptable for me. Soldiers just crouching and crawling all the time even in urban environment. It's just stupid. Please BI bring back AI from Alpha if you're going to go this way or maybe leave that for moders.

Regards

AI are fine compared to the alpha... the devs are tweaking as they go... and based on feedback.

[sqb-sma 66]

AI are fighting far better in open ground now, and I notice they do go crouched/standing when right up against walls. But I still feel they're prone too much for CQB. Better to designate zones for various behaviors, or have them figure it out by cover checking.

[benedykt 10]

It's great that BI working on AI, no doubt about it. I just would like to see soldiers attacking and firing from different positions - prone, crouch and standing too as it was before. Especially in urban warfare. Just check any of combat footage from Youtube for example. Soldiers are not crawling around in the middle of the city. I mean animations only. That's it. Nothing more. Work on AI must be continued anyway.

[Tyl3r99 41]

if they could use the extra stances we have then it would be great and went into buildings and shot out of the bedroom window etc... even a grenade into a building (i doubt it) lol

[mac81 0]

(Hope this thread is the right one for my post otherwise please indicate me the correct thread related to AI skill and behaviour issues, tnx). According to AI behaviour what I recently experienced is that again in vanilla ArmA when enemy AI find themselves under sniper fire first thing they do is to go prone (correct), second they try to locate the sniper fire position (almost a split of second even at long distances 500 to 800 meters) but then they don't do nothing, they just lay on the ground taking fire untill the squad has 2 or 3 men left and only at that point they react with a retreat. What I expect is that once located the sniper position the AI at least try to find some cover behind buildings rocks ecc...

[Azzur33 1]

What I expect is that once located the sniper position the AI at least try to find some cover behind buildings rocks ecc...

I've noticed at least some effort to find cover in a situation they can't return fire, if there is something to hide behind. Even lamp posts.

But the group leader still stays prone, and gets himself killed. Others can't find enough cover and they are easy targets, or decide just to lay down. At least they'll retreat at some point.

This is something that must be very difficult to make any better. The AI group leader should "know" he can't do anything but hide and then retreat. And AI should hide so that there is no line of sight to enemy.

It is not "game breaking" as it is now, by any means. Sniping a group of enemy from very, very long distances is just one of the million things you can do in Arma. And when sniping, the distances are usually shorter, they can return fire and you are not 100% safe.

[dale0404 5]

A post made by a member of the community I play with:

AI is a bit screwed up at the moment. From what I can tell, AI spawned through script will take a very long time to register players, and as a result they do not open fire. They've also been seen doing a weird 360 spin every time they change their stance.

When hosting locally, the AI problem is not as obvious as on a dedicated server where the AI are local to server. But it still seems to take them a while to notice targets and open fire.

AI placed in the editor seem to act normally, both on locally hosted and dedicated servers.

The AI I tested was spawned via the stock functions BIS_fnc_spawnGroup using group config entries, and BIS_fnc_spawnVehicle. All AI had their skill-levels set to 1, with aimingAccuracy set to 0.3.

[Tyl3r99 41]

AI are spending theyre entire life down prone when in combat mode with no enemy threat! hmmm it wasnt like that couple of days ago - change it backkk

[petek 62]

AI are spending theyre entire life down prone when in combat mode with no enemy threat! hmmm it wasnt like that couple of days ago - change it backkk

I agree - seemed better a few days ago (more of a mix of crouch and prone)

[MadocComadrin 12]

Keep in mind that the devs may be encouraging over-use of certain behaviors to test things out (eg. crouching when it was first tweaked).

[Tyl3r99 41]

AI are spending theyre entire life down prone when in combat mode with no enemy threat! hmmm it wasnt like that couple of days ago - change it backkk

ticket has been made

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11998#bugnotes

---------- Post added at 19:17 ---------- Previous post was at 19:15 ----------

Keep in mind that the devs may be encouraging over-use of certain behaviors to test things out (eg. crouching when it was first tweaked).

it was fine before they changed it

Edited July 26, 2013 by tyl3r99
forgot to give link

[froggyluv 2136]

Here's the thing that makes AI seem wonky and I really just don't understand.

Leading a two man squad up a ridge toward enemy controlled Air Mike 300m due north. I keep my men somewhat behind me, put them in Stealth and Hold Fire so I can get a better look and assign targets via binocs. I see a couple enemies who in turn see me and fire a coupled of missed shots. My men are layin low exactly as they should just south of a ridge that somewhat protects them and are directly next to two very nice boulders. I give the Take Cover command.....rather than step the .5m lateral step needed to put himself behind perfect cover, #2 decides to run toward the enemy maybe 20 feet, stop circle back, move thru some bushes and then ends up behind that rock that he initially started at.

I think this is the crux of the wtf behavior of the AI. Why can't they simply make a quick assessment of the best cover in their immediate vicinity, knowing the orientation of the enemy and just get behind it. What strange force compels them to risk life and pixel by running some daring chicken dance of "bet you can't hit me!" before self preservation?

I thought before that it was stated that AI simply see TOO much cover and that it had been streamlined - but what on earth tells this AI to run toward the enemy before running back?Cannot the AI be made, in a sense, more linear? "Enemy is at 12 oclock. Master says hide from enemy at 12'o clock and Im right next to a rock. Im moving directly behind that rock just like master says."

More deliberate, streamlined action would go a long way to making the AI not only look more impressive but actually be more impressive.

Edit: Also, I could understand if there were multiple enemies at different angle confusing the AI a bit, but all enemies were firmly in the 12' o clock pie slice. And with multiple angled foes, I guess enemy distance and/or height would have to come into play.

Edited July 26, 2013 by froggyluv

[Tyl3r99 41]

hi all,

regarding the AI crawl, crouch, stand malarky...

this is what ive found so far..

combat - prone 24/7

stealth - crouch 90% of the time

aware - just as they should be, running.

please BIS fix this :( i cant make a mission if it will take 3 hours to complete 500m lol

[addition]

also the 3d voices are too quiet.

can anyone confirm if the "man...." or "move....." issue has been fixed? as its too quiet i couldnt tell.

even with the radio turned off.

Edited July 26, 2013 by tyl3r99

[MadocComadrin 12]

#2 decides to run toward the enemy maybe 20 feet, stop circle back, move thru some bushes and then ends up behind that rock that he initially started at.

This is a problem in more than one area. The ai tend to go out of the way to reorient (often awfully) themselves to their target and then move to it instead of just going there.

[instagoat 133]

Combat is much more enjoyable with the AI down and actually looking like they want to stay alive.

In Urban terrain they should prefer crouching, but out in the country, when moving between cover and not out in the open, I actually really like the prone AI.

But I can already see people complaining about how the AI "refuses to move".

This is difficult to get right, because wether or not they should stay down or move is heavily context dependent. I am not sure how well that kind of thing could be fixed, since a computer code has no Idea of concepts such as "The enemy has a tank, so I should run for cover as long as he didn´t spot me yet" versus "There is an enemy patrol and if we want to ambush it we need to stay down instead of running head-first across the landscape to find a big rock to hide behind."

[froggyluv 2136]

This is difficult to get right, because wether or not they should stay down or move is heavily context dependent. I am not sure how well that kind of thing could be fixed, since a computer code has no Idea of concepts such as "The enemy has a tank, so I should run for cover as long as he didn´t spot me yet" versus "There is an enemy patrol and if we want to ambush it we need to stay down instead of running head-first across the landscape to find a big rock to hide behind."

Without question a Herculean task. Ideally i'd like to see qualifiers such as:

Danger Mode Offensive

Danger Mode Defensive

etc....

with appropriate behaviors. I guess that would qualify more along the lines of AI overhaul and most likely outside the scope of the game. What should be possible however is a very distinct order ie Take Cover (hint, or you'll die!) should be perfectly translatable over to the current AI to not run amok and then decide to seek the object they were next to, to begin with. if this engine just simply can't do that well I guess we're all in trouble...though IIRC SLX/GL4 had Ai soldiers better managing their micro behavior more. And that really seems to be the issue -the current AI (I haven't tried much since all the latest updates) tend to move in Macro circles when they're life is on the line. I'd rather wait for them while there busy saving (or thinking they are) their own lives. Also a Force qualifier again, IE GL4, as in no matter what they're doing , a Force qualifier overrides it with "move your a$$ NAO!!!!"

I do very much appreciate the current attention and thread to Ai immensely!

[metalcraze 290]

I like that AI stays prone a lot more now. Putting two squads against each other made for a longer firefight due to this instead of being over in just 30 seconds.

[tremanarch 6]

yeah give the ai some basic quick function that calcs the danger. has opfor or bluefor more power. then switch a set of actions. also consider retreat!

this function could be redone every new spot.. must not be calced by every ai, just by the client or the server - shouldnt be to overcomplex. vehicles beat inf, 2 inf beat 1 inf etc.. just some table with 2 outcomes: inferiour / superiour...

if ai decides: we are inferiour: act very defensive run away quick to safe spot / safe zone etc, save life / hiding has priority. (dont risk much)

if ai decides its superiour act different, be more active, flank, etc maybe risk something. (risk > 0.4)

actions could have a risk tag, like: flank through the open running has rsik 0,7, while go prone wait throw grenade has risk tag 0.3.. etc (precalced action tags)

and give everything a random chance that ai is not determined 100% - and still some randomness kamikaze could be possible ^^

etc sth. like that.

ok maybe its too complex.

Edited July 26, 2013 by tremanarch

[killerwhale 1]

I made little video showing Operation flashpoint AI in close combat, I think their response in close combat is somewhat better than ARMA series, watch it in HD and full screen.

[Masharra 10]

ok maybe its too complex.

Too complex? Arma 2 says hi!

u0k5yA9kYjw

others

Even better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqPiMh94Xf8

Edited July 27, 2013 by Masharra