AI Discussion (dev branch)

[Tonci87 163]

I think one of the biggest problems with the Ai is that a squad leader will send his guys after individual enemys. The Ai does this every time. What happens then is that the AI soldiers leave their cover and try to push towards the enemy only to get killed (especially if they go after players who stay in their cover position). You could say that the Ai always prefers to attack and the attacker always has a disadvantage.

There was a Thread on this somewhere in the Arma 2 Forum where someone demonstrated that the AI was more lethal if you put "enableattack false" (I´m not sure if this was the right expression but you get the point) into the squadleaders init line. This would stop the squadleader from giving attack orders and because of that AI would find a cover position, stay there and defend. The side effect was that they would stay there forever.

@Dr Hladik: Would it be possible to stop the group leader from giving attack orders to individual soldiers by using the previously mentioned command and setting it back to true once the firefight has ended?

This could be expanded by setting it back to true if the AI thinks that it has a significant numerical advantage over the enemy, and setting it to false if they are on equal numbers or at a numerical disadvantage.

Maybe you could write up a test mission with a script to see how this works? We could test it for you!

[jw custom 56]

Good to see such attention to the AI, better late than never(well this was only an alpha and is only a beta now). If such fixes/additions keeps on coming AI might turn out pretty nice :cool:

[call_911 10]

Yup kudos to u BI for continued support/listening to community good too see ai getting some attention b4hand vs in ArmA2 ai was a nitemare an even discouraged new players etc. Glad to see the .5 sec 180 degree turn/crack rifleman wanna be sniper from 500m is being sorted.

[klamacz 448]

Today's changes for AI (the rest are coming)

AI ballistic calculation improved for unguided rockets

Will make AI more capable of hitting targets with unguided rockets (RPG, NLAW but also FFAR's). There was mathematical accuracy problem which made AI aim at wrong point. This being fixed, actual accuracy of AI still depends on his skill.

[pettka 694]

Adjusted visibility and audibility of fire for AI

This one may be a bit tricky, it should help to solve J-Turn snipers, but it is still work in progress :icon_twisted:

[metalcraze 290]

The 'reaction to kill' fix is not good enough if it's there in today's update.

If you are firing from behind, say, bushes - AI will not spot you right away when you kill an enemy but eventually will as you make more shots... In an unrealistic way. Even if they all face away (which can happen after several shots even though they should be facing the approximate direction of incoming fire right away) and the final "revealing" shot happens - they will turn and fire on your location as if you just radio'd it to them.

This issue shows itself further when you are not in concealment and do that first kill shot. They will still immediately turn to your exact spot and start firing to kill even after 1 shot-kill and facing away.

It's as if to fix this issue past the first kill BIS is running a simple lineIntersect command. Nothing in between AI and a player? KnowsAbout = 4 instantly. Something in between? AI will run around cluelessly not even facing the enemy until about 4th shot happens then all concealment seems to be removed from calculations and an enemy is a fair game.

The same issue is present without killing an AI. Place first shot near enemy squad completely facing away - they will simply go into a danger mode but still won't turn around to look for a shooter. But the moment I fire a second totally imprecise shot - everybody in the enemy squad synchronously and immediately turn to me and start firing to kill. This is not a correct reaction.

The correct behavior is that they should turn in the approximate direction from where shots are coming and this direction should get more and more precise with each new shot +/- several shots just to add realistically looking randomness. After that they should use nothing but their eyes. No magical "exact location transmitted to AI because you've made enough shots". It shouldn't matter if you did a kill or just firing blindly.

I will make a ticket showing this issue further shortly.

Edited July 23, 2013 by metalcraze

[chortles 263]

Just remember, repro or it didn't happen...

[Masharra 10]

Just remember, repro or it didn't happen...

.....

[dmarkwick 261]

The 'reaction to kill' fix is not good enough if it's there in today's update.

If you are firing from behind, say, bushes - AI will not spot you right away when you kill an enemy but eventually will as you make more shots... In an unrealistic way. Even if they all face away (which can happen after several shots even though they should be facing the approximate direction of incoming fire right away) and the final "revealing" shot happens - they will turn and fire on your location as if you just radio'd it to them.

This issue shows itself further when you are not in concealment and do that first kill shot. They will still immediately turn to your exact spot and start firing to kill even after 1 shot-kill and facing away.

It's as if to fix this issue past the first kill BIS is running a simple lineIntersect command. Nothing in between AI and a player? KnowsAbout = 4 instantly. Something in between? AI will run around cluelessly not even facing the enemy until about 4th shot happens then all concealment seems to be removed from calculations and an enemy is a fair game.

The same issue is present without killing an AI. Place first shot near enemy squad completely facing away - they will simply go into a danger mode but still won't turn around to look for a shooter. But the moment I fire a second totally imprecise shot - everybody in the enemy squad synchronously and immediately turn to me and start firing to kill. This is not a correct reaction.

The correct behavior is that they should turn in the approximate direction from where shots are coming and this direction should get more and more precise with each new shot +/- several shots just to add realistically looking randomness. After that they should use nothing but their eyes. No magical "exact location transmitted to AI because you've made enough shots". It shouldn't matter if you did a kill or just firing blindly.

I will make a ticket showing this issue further shortly.

It seems to me that a similar mechanic is being employed as when it happens on your side. One unit will spot, and then transmit the details to everyone in the group. It shouldn't be a surprise that all units face your way was soon as one gets a fix. The same thing happens when it's the other way around.

[metalcraze 290]

That's not the problem.

Not sure about the solution to crouch either. It seems to be similar to Robalo's one in ASR AI which is not how it should be.

AI should kneel or go prone to fire but move around normally without enforced crouch run (since it tires the AI). They should crouch run only when under actual fire (which they can detect) or when enemy is close, not always in danger mode.

That's the reason I've made a ticket years ago - adding "LOW" stance to danger.FSM is easy but adding the smarter behavior I'm describing above is impossible with scripts, only through engine code modification. Although I'm not saying BIS did exactly that - perhaps the fix is indeed smarter and I'll do more testing but so far it doesn't look too optimal.

The reasoning behind this is because as human players we prefer to use crouch or prone stance to fire because it lowers the recoil. But when moving the standing stance is preferred unless in the immediate danger / under fire. Why? Because moving while standing is faster and less tiring. It also doesn't matter from 100m and above since you will be the target of almost the same size. However human players prefer crouch run when in the immediate danger or going into a cqb fight because lower profile certainly can make a difference even at the expense of bigger fatigue at a close range.

Edited July 23, 2013 by metalcraze

[Masharra 10]

Dont fully understand you there DM. Care to explain in detail?

[dmarkwick 261]

Dont fully understand you there DM. Care to explain in detail?

I mean that as soon as any one unit in a group spots you, that info is transmitted to all units in that group straight away. So when they're all clueless, they're all clueless. But as soon as one sees you, then they all know where you are at the same time. A similar mechanic to when one of your group spots an enemy and he tells everyone where that enemy is over the radio.

It's always been a OFP/ArmA feature, that the group has a group mind. One knows, they all know.

[Masharra 10]

Ah I understand what you are saying now. TY.

Somewhat shitty feature imo.

[dmarkwick 261]

Ah I understand what you are saying now. TY.

Somewhat shitty feature imo.

Well it depends. The group mind has it's positives and negatives. For: you're up against a coordinated response, against: distance between units is no barrier to communications.

But all-in-all I favour the group mind approach, in general it works out best. Only in a few cases does it seem "cheaty" or unreal.

[metalcraze 290]

AI incorrect reaction to kills ticket added

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11865

[bad benson 1733]

Only in a few cases does it seem "cheaty" or unreal.

these are the crucial cases though. the problem here is not that the AI share info. it's the same as with several other features. the idea behind it is great but the execution isn't giving the intended result.

just transfer squad info sharing to an all human team to see how it should be. players share enemy info with bearings and general directions. often times squad members will have the info but still have a hard time actually spotting the enemy. AI on the other hand seems to share 100% exact positions which then are directly used for targeting. this is not realistic and doesn't feel human or tactical at all. it just feels like one brain in several bodies. or like the squad mates are instances of the leader or the one that spotted the enemy first.

the problem is the absence of grey areas. it's either they don't know where you are or they know exactly where you are. as metalcraze said. there needs to be a random error factor. like a zone that is created around the shooter after he shot, to resemble the info gathered from the sound of the shot. then everyone in the squad should get a random spot in that zone to look at and search the zone from there by straving the aim from one side border to another. each shot should make that zone smaller and then after a certain amount (randomized) they then could get the exact position.

it's just a simple concept but i think it's clear what i mean...i hope;)

[metalcraze 290]

If BIS will solve it the way I suggest in the "expected behavior" in my ticket it will mostly eliminate that issue Bad Benson. At least it will appear a lot more humanlike even if AI instant intra-squad info sharing will remain the same.

I think what the engine really lacks is AI using areas not just targets. They seem to always use very precise targets/objects in their calculations when in fact it would've been great if 'areas' concept was familiar to them too.

Like when you order them to watch something they will watch that exact object when some kind of "area" should be created for them so they won't just get a heavy tunnel-vision like they do now.

Same goes for suppression. Would've been great if when using that useless 2-9 command it created an invisible area object for AI that would be of 5m radius or something all of which they would fire at instead of firing in the same spot.

I hope it's clear enough what I suggest since "area" vs "exact target" objects can solve a lot of superhuman issues with AI. Hard to describe it a bit.

Edited July 23, 2013 by metalcraze

[Trauma.au 10]

- flashlights help you to detect enemy, but also reveals you.

Does this detection apply to muzzle flash too? What about tracers? Suppressors? (related issue) Hoping to see flash hiders make a comeback.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Trauma.au

[runekn 3]

Marid commander hatch animation is linked to driver seat: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11866

Damn, wrong thread :rolleyes:

Edited July 23, 2013 by runekn
Damn

[maturin 12]

I think what the engine really lacks is AI using areas not just targets. They seem to always use very precise targets/objects in their calculations when in fact it would've been great if 'areas' concept was familiar to them too.

This is precisely what is needed.

I have just been testing the dev branch fire visibility tweaks and there are some positive changes.

Going prone in grass at 200m now allows you quite a few shots before an unaware enemy is able to find the audible direction of fire and notice your muzzle dust. However, if you are lying in an open field they take far too long. If you lying in forest surrounded by clutter, it is far too fast. This is the AI-human disconnect that is almost impossible to simulate with computer code. For example, even in current dev branch, the AI will instantly spot a target prone in grass that fires a single round from 200m. This may be appropriate for someone on a runway, but not someone trying to hide amongst trees and bushes.

Furthermore, when the AI does not see a shooter that they can hear, they are too helpless. Better for them to choose a 50 meter square area target and suppress it. It will look more believable and intelligent. It will also scare the player, as the area fire could actually hit them.

Basically, unless BIS writes a ton of new code to make nearby clutter reduce detection times (when there is actually clear LoS), we need an area-fire workaround so that the AI opens fire on your general location before actually acquiring a clear visual target. This is probably only necessary at long ranges or when prone in grass. To avoid re-writing all the code, BIS could keep the current robot-like detection system, but force the AI to shoot at an area target centered around the actual point target, at least when the target is prone in grass or farther than 300m away. Time, further gunfire, target movement and optics would all reduce or eliminate the size of this area target.

On another note, our ability to test AI gunshot detection is hampered by some rather old issues.

*AI ignore gunshots for a long five or six seconds before suddenly going into combat mode and turning to engage. ASR AI somehow fixed this glacial response time in A2.

*AI still obey artificial engagement ranges for assault rifles, often less than 300m. If the player is shooting them from 800m (the actual max effective range of many rifles), they had damn well return fire. At present they choose suicide instead. EVERY and I mean EVERY AI mod ever released for the ArmA series dramatically increases engagement ranges. Zeus, ASR, ACE, you name it. It makes the gameplay dramatically better and if the AI wastes ammo, so what?

Currently I can't even test AI awareness at 300m because a rifleman won't shoot at that range. I could use a sniper, but then there would be optics in the equation. Their very slow-acting ears make me wait a long time before they even react to my gunfire. And then after that, they often misjudge the direction of audible gunfire by 180 degrees. They should get it down to within 100 degrees, most likely.

Edited July 23, 2013 by maturin

[afp 1]

I think one of the biggest problems with the Ai is that a squad leader will send his guys after individual enemys. The Ai does this every time. What happens then is that the AI soldiers leave their cover and try to push towards the enemy only to get killed (especially if they go after players who stay in their cover position). You could say that the Ai always prefers to attack and the attacker always has a disadvantage.

There was a Thread on this somewhere in the Arma 2 Forum where someone demonstrated that the AI was more lethal if you put "enableattack false" (I´m not sure if this was the right expression but you get the point) into the squadleaders init line. This would stop the squadleader from giving attack orders and because of that AI would find a cover position, stay there and defend. The side effect was that they would stay there forever.

@Dr Hladik: Would it be possible to stop the group leader from giving attack orders to individual soldiers by using the previously mentioned command and setting it back to true once the firefight has ended?This could be expanded by setting it back to true if the AI thinks that it has a significant numerical advantage over the enemy, and setting it to false if they are on equal numbers or at a numerical disadvantage.

Maybe you could write up a test mission with a script to see how this works? We could test it for you!

That's what I said too, "HOLD" waypoint should prevent AI to chase the enemy. This way you can set any type of mission and make them aggressive or defensive. "GUARD" can be used for enemy chasing and sharing information between AI groups. If someone can post a ticket that's be great, I tried to make an account but it wouldn't let me.

[Masharra 10]

snip

That and/or they could evade better. pop smoke and head for nearest defensible position hold it. then send out scouting parties.

Not necessarily a defensive position but they sent out a scouting party.

XwUDye7QI6g

[Variable 322]

I think one of the biggest problems with the Ai is that a squad leader will send his guys after individual enemys. The Ai does this every time. What happens then is that the AI soldiers leave their cover and try to push towards the enemy only to get killed (especially if they go after players who stay in their cover position).

I wish to support changing this behavior. Units should not break formation to attack, but rather engage while at least roughly maintaining it. When the leader is human he could tell his AI subordinates to "Target" the target (the "2" menu) and that will achieve the desired result. The AI will remain in the formation and fire from within it. If the Leader is AI, however, he will usually issue an "Engage" or "Attack" command, and that cause the AI to break formation.

Maybe this presents a possible solution? Make the AI use "Target" instead of "Engage"?

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my observations.

[afp 1]

Even in real, unless you are in Hollywood movies or in Stalin's army is very unlikely to stand up and run towards the enemy under close heavy fire...

[metalcraze 290]

You are correct Variable.

The solution can be easy though.

AI leader should use 'engage' when an enemy is within 100m and 'target' when further.

That way AIs will always have their mates watching their backs when attacking a close target while not breaking formation when a target is too far for that and not chasing it potentially running into an ambush.

Here comes the ticket: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11868

Edited July 23, 2013 by metalcraze