Bohemia, have you bothered at all with the AI in the last 3 months?

[Flash Thunder 10]

The AI will never be good just play against human players or dont play this game at all.

[OrLoK 20]

The AI will never be good just play against human players or dont play this game at all.

Hello there

The AI can be perfectly adequate to play with and occasionally scarily efficient in A2 (especially with mods), also remember not all of us *want* to play against people.

However, I do have faith that the existing AI will be tweaked a considerable amount before release.

Rgds

LoK

[Azzur33 1]

The AI will never be good just play against human players or dont play this game at all.

The AI is good, but it will not behave just like human players. It's not even possible. But there is still enough challenge and lots of fun playing SP, so not playing at all against/with AI sounds a bit silly.

Why act like Arma AI was hopelessly stupid, while it obviously is not. That is just insulting to those who have done and try to do their best in an almost impossible task. it won't help a bit, and it sure isn't encouraging at all.

[[aps]gnat 28]

Excuse my disappointment that an in-your-face thread about just ONE game aspect gets some much attention from the developers ..........

All my previous understand about what structured/formalised player/mod'er feedback (systems etc) BI browsed/listened to, has been destroyed.

[royaltyinexile 175]

Gnat;2443136']Excuse my disappointment that an in-your-face thread about just ONE game aspect gets some much attention from the developers ..........

All my previous understand about what structured/formalised player/mod'er feedback (systems etc) BI browsed/listened to' date=' has been destroyed.[/quote']

I'm not sure what you mean/understand the point you're getting at, exactly?

yes, we normally would avoid threads with aggressive titles, as they're not usually filled with useful feedback or productive discussion.

I've made an exception to reply to this thread. I've also had some discussion with our programmers about how we can in future share the AI improvements/fixes that have been/are part of our ongoing development, but which aren't particularly clear/obvious. Dr Hladik made a request for specific repros to be sent to him in regards to the OPs initial problems, but, for me, this thread has run its course.

Edit: Also, if it wasn't clear, when I say we've added a new programmer, that's wasn't to suggest AI is his only job (he's also looking at optimisations), nor that other programmers were not already working on the code (Dr Hladik works on this as well as many, many other tasks, as well as Ondra when he finds a solid repro). What I'd like to do is improve how we go about sharing what changes we've made/are making.

Best,

RiE

Edited July 17, 2013 by RoyaltyinExile

[Alwarren 2765]

I'm not sure what you mean/understand the point you're getting at, exactly?

I'm venturing a guess: Probably the same that I wrote to you yesterday in a PM - it seems that the only way to get the developer's attention is to write an offensive topic or post. Attempting to get the devs attention by "normal" means hardly ever got anywhere. As I never get tired to point out, I tried so many times to bring the devs attention to the flaws in the attachment systems without any success. If I had written something like "OMG the attachment system is utter s***" I might have gotten the attention this issue required; as it is now, nobody ever cared about it, even directly PM'ing the devs didn't help.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'm venturing a guess: Probably the same that I wrote to you yesterday in a PM - it seems that the only way to get the developer's attention is to write an offensive topic or post. Attempting to get the devs attention by "normal" means hardly ever got anywhere. As I never get tired to point out, I tried so many times to bring the devs attention to the flaws in the attachment systems without any success. If I had written something like "OMG the attachment system is utter s***" I might have gotten the attention this issue required; as it is now, nobody ever cared about it, even directly PM'ing the devs didn't help.

Well come one, obviously the AI should be on top of the list of dev priority (and it's amazing it isn't), and it was grand time to have an answer on this subject.

[Varanon 892]

Well come one, obviously the AI should be on top of the list of dev priority (and it's amazing it isn't), and it was grand time to have an answer on this subject.

The point wasn't whether the AI should be priority or not, but rather that you get attention only by swearing, not by arguing or asking politely.

Besides, I doubt that the same developer is doing AI and config work. And the rail system is mainly config work (plus a bit of programming to change the way the lookup works, i.e. can I attach the given item on the given rail).

[Alwarren 2765]

Well come one, obviously the AI should be on top of the list of dev priority (and it's amazing it isn't), and it was grand time to have an answer on this subject.

Not the point. I fully agree with you, I am glad that things get addressed. The point I was trying to make is that there seems to be no response from the devs UNLESS you become offensive. Make no mistake, I do agree that the AI is one of the most important factors (I'm a coop player through and through). The impression one gets now, though, is that only by making a thread title offensive (which should get the least attention of all) you can actually get attention. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't want to say that the attachment system is more important; but there are other areas where people feel like their feedback is being ignored.

I know having a public alpha/beta cycle is something new, so that's a good explanation, I just hope that we will be able to get someone's attention by other means than swearing :)

[LemTheGentleman 11]

If I can throw in my two cents, I feel like the enemy AI is a little bit insane with their shooting accuracy? I mean, sometimes it will take them a good 5 seconds to react to you standing in front of them but then they can shoot you in the face from 400+ meters away :( If i'm the only one that feels like this then maybe I just suck but I'd love to hear from someone else thoughts on that

[dmarkwick 261]

If I can throw in my two cents, I feel like the enemy AI is a little bit insane with their shooting accuracy? I mean, sometimes it will take them a good 5 seconds to react to you standing in front of them but then they can shoot you in the face from 400+ meters away :( If i'm the only one that feels like this then maybe I just suck but I'd love to hear from someone else thoughts on that

I don't wish to appear the apologist in this matter, but this system works for me personally. At distance I get the advantage because I can hide better, move better & spot better (mostly). But close-in the nature of FPS means I don't have the full situational awareness I'd like (even though I have TrackIR). Even with slow AI CQB abilities its not like I have a cakewalk through the built-up areas :) And for playability's sake I can turn down the accuracy, 0.3 seems to be a nice value.

But, that's just me. The AI are tuned to middle-distance battles it seems, which is fine by me.

[Tonci87 163]

RiE, now I really understand your "sitting on a bomb" avatar :p

[[aps]gnat 28]

Not the point. I fully agree with you, I am glad that things get addressed. The point I was trying to make is that there seems to be no response from the devs UNLESS you become offensive. Make no mistake, I do agree that the AI is one of the most important factors (I'm a coop player through and through). The impression one gets now, though, is that only by making a thread title offensive (which should get the least attention of all) you can actually get attention.

Exactly.

Way to go to promote more people jumping on their offensive, my-issue-is-most-important, my-own-thread, soap box.

.... maybe people should try a little more CAPS and expletives in the BugTracker .....

Greatest respect for the Devs, but IMHO this was a bad move.

[bigshot 62]

If I can throw in my two cents, I feel like the enemy AI is a little bit insane with their shooting accuracy? I mean, sometimes it will take them a good 5 seconds to react to you standing in front of them but then they can shoot you in the face from 400+ meters away :( If i'm the only one that feels like this then maybe I just suck but I'd love to hear from someone else thoughts on that

Yes, it is 1 of the 2 reasons why I started this thread and also the theme of many other posts on these forums and others around the web. The issue is that our ability to set the AI precision/accuracy has been taken away from since some of the later patches released from Arma2....about a year or 2 ago. This means that the AI accuracy is now hard coded and is calculated automatically for you depending upon your basic skill setting in the game difficulty menu, and at the same time negating whatever you set for precision in your profile config...but something is seriously wrong with the way it works because ever since then the AI difficulty has been an unmanageable task for the player. Now in Arma3 it seems to be much worse as you have just pointed out.

This is why I have asked countless times over the past 18 months, in a nice way (and ignored) if they would bring back the ability for us to adjust the precision ourselves (separate from basic skill) either through the profile config (as it used to be) or even better would be via an additional "accuracy" setting in the difficulty screen of the UI.

I understand this is partly a design issue but my question goes deeper because ever since this design change it seems the AI precision has gone way up to a point where not only myself but huge amounts of players and developers have either walked away for good or do not play nearly as often as they play other games now. Something has changed with the AI accuracy it is too high and we as players would like BIS to bring back our ability to be able to set the AI skill level on maybe .7 BUT the "precision" down to .2 for example...this way they are very smart and try to outflank you and move around alot but they would shoot no so good.

[sofianebilal 10]

I totally agree with that, I found AI is better than ArmA 2, but there's more problem:

1 - When you give an order, it takes a long time to do

2 - it does not always put it covered

3 - it is too dependente order of the player, it is not self-sufficient, for example (when someone is injured or even AI doctor she is injured, AI does nothing, waiting your order)

4 - it is teriblement cheated marksmanship

5 - she reacted very badly short distance, but long distance is another story

[zimms 22]

AI in a complex world is everything but easy, not only BIS struggles with it.

AI vs 4-year old kids

Favourite quote:

"If a child had scores that varied this much, it might be a symptom that something was wrong," said Robert Sloan, professor and head of computer science at UIC, and lead author on the study.

:D

[afp 1]

1. AI path finding - Could you please send me a repro mission? As you can imagine, there are many things that affect pathfinding (engine AI, vehicle configuration, obstacle configuration, map) and this is still not a final product. So it is really hard to just tell how/when this can be improved. (I'm sorry if I missed it somewhere).

2. AI precision settings - just in this thread some are asking for higher precision when attacking moving target (answer is in #41), some are asking for smaller precision. This is more (not all) about design decision than about engine changes and you cannot expect that someone will change it in just one day.

Hey Dr Hladik. If you are the new guy in the team, welcome. Here is a short overview about the ArmA AI. First, the people mix friendly AI with enemy AI, there are different types with different issues.

Friendly AI - they have pretty much the same problems since OfP era (tho they were a bit improved in ArmA 2). As most of the games are MP coop against AI, friendly AI was never a focus. The issues refers mainly to orders, inability to execute the given command, pathfinding in following you, some initiative in patching wounds etc - see them around the forum.

Enemy AI - The main problem is not being able to change AI precision although the parameter do exists in .ArmaProfile file. See how I tested it here http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?157998-AI-accuracy-test. For the moment, playing on "regular" the precision is a bit high (it was much worse), but people may want to play regular with a higher or a lower precision so this param need to work properly. As you said that this is coded in game engine, you probably need to play around with some angle in trajectory calculation, just before shooting, so you may be able to increase /decrease precision a bit. (i suppose). Don't change too much as it's close to a good value now, on regular. People will still complain as the AI will hit them from long distance with sniper rifles - you may need to check the sniper rifles accuracy for this, at 800 m snipers should miss a moving target. Also check zeus mod parameters for a better AI skills array.

The second big AI problem is the combat behavior - they turn around too slow (see movies), they don't notice you at 90%, sometimes they stand up and run to cover while close to you, instead of shooting etc.

There are other issues too, AI walking / shooting / seeing through walls etc, see the forums or the bug tracker for these, they are mostly gross bugs that need fixing. For enemy AI, keep it simple, if they are close to players they should open fire, they may look for cover at distance where running around is safe.

[Masharra 10]

Hey Dr Hladik. If you are the new guy in the team, welcome. Here is a short overview about the ArmA AI. First, the people mix friendly AI with enemy AI, there are different types with different issues.

Friendly AI - they have pretty much the same problems since OfP era (tho they were a bit improved in ArmA 2). As most of the games are MP coop against AI, friendly AI was never a focus. The issues refers mainly to orders, inability to execute the given command, pathfinding in following you, some initiative in patching wounds etc - see them around the forum.

Enemy AI - The main problem is not being able to change AI precision although the parameter do exists in .ArmaProfile file. See how I tested it here http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?157998-AI-accuracy-test. For the moment, playing on "regular" the precision is a bit high (it was much worse), but people may want to play regular with a higher or a lower precision so this param need to work properly. As you said that this is coded in game engine, you probably need to play around with some angle in trajectory calculation, just before shooting, so you may be able to increase /decrease precision a bit. (i suppose). Don't change too much as it's close to a good value now, on regular. People will still complain as the AI will hit them from long distance with sniper rifles - you may need to check the sniper rifles accuracy for this, at 800 m snipers should miss a moving target. Also check zeus mod parameters for a better AI skills array.

The second big AI problem is the combat behavior - they turn around too slow (see movies), they don't notice you at 90%, sometimes they stand up and run to cover while close to you, instead of shooting etc.

There are other issues too, AI walking / shooting / seeing through walls etc, see the forums or the bug tracker for these, they are mostly gross bugs that need fixing. For enemy AI, keep it simple, if they are close to players they should open fire, they may look for cover at distance where running around is safe.

I would delegate that one of the main problems or simply list problems without order.

Eitherway.

1. AI emulates fear of death poorly.

2. There is no real suppression.

3. No usage of fancy coloured smokes or glow sticks really.

4. Do they use lasers/flashlights of own violation read: not told to in init?

5. See knows about bug on tracker.

6. Age old bugs - see tracker.

7. see tracker.

8. Relatively Poor tactics see GL3/4

I dont really mind their precision as much as I do mind the lack tactics. Unfortunately not much use of them having good tactics when players dont need to use them either.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Masharra

[metalcraze 290]

I've added a small repro to this issue that shows the severity of inferior AI reactions even better

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3592

It's pretty much the root issue that causes AIs you send to kill other AIs to die just as AIs you set to defend some area to die as well if enemy comes outside of their aiming area.

In fact it shows another pretty bad issue with AI... when moving it doesn't check areas around itself.

Please upvote if you haven't already because there's still no response to the ticket by BIS. Remember that this issue has been there since OFP and while not as terrible in OFP due to turn speed limits forced on a player - it's absolutely gamebreaking now.

[Smurf 12]

Just testing the (inexistent) supression, ended up with a small view of the AI:

I was just testing this. Stratis runway, some objects to get cover. 2 groups of enemies, one weapons squad and other 3 men team; 2 autorifleman and a grenadier. Shoot at a group of enemies and hide, pop up just to shoot a couple of rounds at their direction.

First go with only the large group: They lie down, few units give some shots, more fire when I pop up but few bullets in general. Single unit ordered to flank me, using objects for cover.

Second go with the two groups: Large group do nothing, just lie there and shoot a little (and I mean a little).

Small group start to flank me, 2 by one side, one by the middle using cover. I kill the two guys flanking me, the single dude falls back taking cover. On the wrong side of objects. Then, try to flank me by the other side, almost drown himself and come back to the same side of his fallen comrades.

While this happen, the big group does nothing. After a while they send a single unit to recon, he sees me and start to "dance" (up, down, spin). I kill him, big group does nothing.

The single dude kills me when I miss some shots.

Third go: same configuration, more objects - Big group does nothing at all. Small group advance covering each other, using objects as cover. Once they get very close to me, behind cover, do a little dance, take long to aim at me, miss first 3 shots, score the forth. I don't die because allowdamage false. Kill him, I advance towards the big group wich does nothing, just lie there and try some few shots at me.

______

Conclusion: They kind of did something right, if they could spread the groups and use supressing fire, I would be in some serious problem. As of right now, just killing single units as they come by.

Small groups are more pro-active.

I know this has little value as there is no repro. Just some observations.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Smurf

[old_painless 182]

It really seems like there is a window of opportunity now with the Dev's assigning ressources towards improving AI. If we test out stuff in the editor, save the pbo and attach it to a tracker item. Bingo, instant repro.

I posted above that yesterday there were about 260 "AI Issues" tracker items, I browsed about 50 of them, only 5 had repros.

If there isn't a repro, it didn't happen - it's that harsh

[Masharra 10]

It really seems like there is a window of opportunity now with the Dev's assigning ressources towards improving AI. If we test out stuff in the editor, save the pbo and attach it to a tracker item. Bingo, instant repro.

I posted above that yesterday there were about 260 "AI Issues" tracker items, I browsed about 50 of them, only 5 had repros.

If there isn't a repro, it didn't happen - it's that harsh

oh really? so thats how bi does it.

[Smurf 12]

It is very hard to get a decent repro for AI - you got all clientside configs like skill and precision, CPU and FPS does matter a lot. Simple scenarios like that are easy enough to setup

[old_painless 182]

Absolutely, MP will be highly difficult to repro at all. Only SP lends itself well to repro'ing. I plan to do some "missions" in the editor that display how the AI has trouble using vehicles, convoys, pathfinding in a vehicle etc.

I did not mean that BI will not believe what we saw if there is no repro :) Only that what they can immediately look into are reproducable issues, and then of course they will get priority

[Flash Thunder 10]

AI return to formation.

Roger

10 seconds later

Negative

AI I swear you're not in danger here I'll put you in aware mode just to be sure. Now will you fucking regroup for fucks sake?

Roger

No can do.

*Kills myself*

AI is the bane of this game.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Flash Thunder