Israel - Gaza - What should we do if anything.

[seba1976 98]

That's very incoherent Seba, as you wrote "Embargos first and then invasion is even worst, it's even more devastating for the people" two pages back, and now you're saying that it's better to invade than it is to impose embargos.

It's not "better" to invade, you shouldn't be considering neither, but if you do, and embargo the country, it is because you don't want to loose anything on your side, it's a lack of honesty so you can say, "let's not jump to it yet, let's first embargo their asses." So the people like you, support your goverment, because it's only considering the military option as the last resource. You "claim a halo for your dishonesty".

And it isn't just "to coerce other nations to do something convient to your's", it's something you do when a dictator has exceeded the amount of attrocities normally comitted by dictators a few times over and have turned into a destabilising factor for pretty much the entire region.

Who gave your country the right to police the world? It's silly to believe that a rich and capitalistic country will invest the tremendous amount of money that takes the whole operation, because the man in charge there was really really bad, and people half the world away was being oppressed by him, when as it happens to be, the region is full of the most important resource to the human civilization today, and your country happens to be, the main consumer of that resource.

But lets buy the lie for a moment. Assume you know your neighborg is beating the shit out of her wife. An action would be justified, right? Are you really thinking that preventing the wife from going to buy food and cutting out their basic services like water, gas, an electricity is what you would do to force the man to stop beating her? I mean yeah, it will probably work, assuming the wife last longer without eating. "The right thing to do you know, if I or the police go there and try to physically stop him, he could hurt us."

[vilas 473]

No conspiracy theories here please, this is supposed to be an intelligent discussion about Gaza/Israel.

It is a pity to see Israel acting like this, although it was to be expected. They really do have a nerve.

I was reading some pro-Zionist comments on Twitter last night after the result came through, and it is alarming just how...I don't know how to describe it...brainwashed these people are? I mean, just because you supposedly have a "4000 year tie" to the land, doesn't mean it is right to go there, boot the current population out, oppress those that remain and then cry foul when they get attacked in return. I just don't understand it - I physically cannot comprehend how they think it is right. Overall, I guess it is a moral issue for me and a religious one for them. People say morals and religion go hand in hand, but this is one example that proves the opposite.

Zionists act similar in similar in other countries too, in Poland we have a lot of troubles with them, it is not Gaza related, but in Aushwitz died a lot of people, also Poles, Czechs, Frenchmen etc. which were Christians, you may not know how Jews were agressive against cross in Aushwitz, how they fought with christian cross there,

Zionists are like "give me all what you have or you are f*** antisemitic" ,

during WW2 Lutwaffe bombed lots of houses, among them Jewish property, after WW2 Germans payed lots of money for Jews as refunds , and now they want refunds from Polish government for things they get refund from German government already , they love to be "victim" cause "everyone must pay money for victim if he doesn't want to be called f** antisemitic fascist nazi" etc.

in all those death-camps died hundreds of thousands of Christians, Poles etc. well , try put cross there and you will see...

i remember in in TV Planete (French TV) broadcast about schools in Israel, in those schools i remember lessons like "god made you the best, you are chosen one, you have right to superiority because god made you superior, god gives us right to do this, do that, because god made us superior" etc.

we almost had riots when Poles wanted christian cross in Aushwitz, there were a lot of Israeli gov. dimplomatic interventions cause they wanted only Jewish symbols there,

in many cases they are not differ than all those Muslim Islamists , they act like religious freaks in many cases , i don't know how usual life looks in Isreal, but from what i have seen in some TV programs - it scares me that it is the same level of "feeling superior because god told so" as Islamist extremists

in christian church brainwashed extremists are ca. 5 % of population

i have no idea how it looks in Jewish or Islam religion but Zionists are really like Talibs from time to time,

and they call everyone antisemitic , fascist, nazi when you not step back and give what they want , just like they still do not accept Chrisitan symbols in Aushwitz , no matter that a lot of thousands of Christians died there too ,

the problem with Zionists is that Jews are many rich businessmen, owners of press, media etc. so they force their "point of view" and you hear about "antisemitism" in some countries while real truth looks different (for example at least 30% officers of Stalin communist oppressive administration in Poland in 40s-50s were Jews, but if you will say that Jews were killing Poles, you are called antisemitic, while it is simple fact, that most of NKVD and Bezpieka officers in 50s were Jews, those who were ordering to commit crimes after WW2 when Poland was communist country which shoot to patriots fighting in WW2 , many AK(home army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_Krajowa ) heroes which fought SS and Wehrmaht during WW2 after ware were tortured and killed by Jews who came with USSR administration here in Poland, but you cannot speak about it, till 1956 Poland was under the same oppression as USSR was during Stalin regime, many officers in our secret political police services were not Poles, some were Russians , some were Jews , and they shot and tortured Poles which fought with Germans during WW2 ),

http://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/the_jewish_decade_in_post_war_poland < something i have found on google, i hope this website is not biased, but after short read, generally all looks real like history i know, but it is forbidden history cause it is politcally not correct ,

other articles on this website looks suspicious, but this one looks real , plus it is one in English language, so thats why i link it, those are cruel facts ,

maybe other articles are not good, cause website looks racist, but rest of resources are in Polish language, so they would need google-translation, but this one article is worth reading,

cause our WW2 heroes, which fought from 1939-1945 with Hitler were after war murdered by Jews which came here with USSR , people who were patriots fighting with Hitler didn't received medals, they received bullet in back of head from 7.62 TT or Nagant held by Russian or Jew in many cases (for example my close friend's grandfather was killed by Stalin commies too)

but everyone on the world says and make movies about this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944%E2%80%931946

but noone dares to speak about this : http://www.rp.pl/artykul/365363.html

even 150 thousands of Poles died because of Stalin opression since 1940 till 1956 , 1.8 milion suffered opressions, tortures etc. but everyone says and make movies about 300 Jews which died from Polish hands , but noone makes movies about Jewish officers of NKVD, so here we know what Palestinians feel

Zionists are not tolerant as those which names they call others (maybe they do it because of interests, money that they can gain etc)

but one thing is for sure , Jews are much more safe and closer to our European way of life plus to our tradition, so we are in pair with them much more than with Islam (cause i afraid of any religion-supporting states)

i didn't mean anyone to offend by this post, but just wanted to show that even WW2 or post-WW2 history has like every coint - 2 sides, one side of coin you know from Hollywood, Spielberg etc. other side of coin knows my friend Jacek when he visits grave of his grandfather who survived whole WW2 and fought Hitler, but couldn't survive Poland after WW2 ended,

every nation has it's nice and cruel history pages, good and bad pages, but on some pages you never read before

Edited December 1, 2012 by vilas

[scrim 1]

It's not "better" to invade, you shouldn't be considering neither, but if you do, and embargo the country, it is because you don't want to loose anything on your side, it's a lack of honesty so you can say, "let's not jump to it yet, let's first embargo their asses." So the people like you, support your goverment, because it's only considering the military option as the last resource. You "claim a halo for your dishonesty".

Who gave your country the right to police the world? It's silly to believe that a rich and capitalistic country will invest the tremendous amount of money that takes the whole operation, because the man in charge there was really really bad, and people half the world away was being oppressed by him, when as it happens to be, the region is full of the most important resource to the human civilization today, and your country happens to be, the main consumer of that resource.

But lets buy the lie for a moment. Assume you know your neighborg is beating the shit out of her wife. An action would be justified, right? Are you really thinking that preventing the wife from going to buy food and cutting out their basic services like water, gas, an electricity is what you would do to force the man to stop beating her? I mean yeah, it will probably work, assuming the wife last longer without eating. "The right thing to do you know, if I or the police go there and try to physically stop him, he could hurt us."

So you're saying it's immoral to try to make the regime change it's mind by imposing embargos against them, if you keep invasion as an option in case they don't stop whatever bad thing they're up to?

In other words, trying a less violent option first is immoral?

I don't think anyone gave Sweden the right to police the world.

That comparison doesn't make sense because it does not replicate the real life circumstances, unless we assume that your rather strange way of viewing embargos is the only accepted school of thinking.

[oxmox 73]

At the top level though, it's not religion nor moral, it's resources and hatred.

When you think about it, Israel itself isnt a secular state.

So religion plays a bigger role in their politics not only in arab countries.

[ProfTournesol 956]

When you think about it, Israel itself isnt a secular state.

So religion plays a bigger role in their politics not only in arab countries.

Indeed.

[mrcash2009 0]

Roger Waters, speaking on behalf of the Russell Tribunal, delivers a very nicely put speech in front of delegates on International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People. This day also marks an important development in the Palestinians' bid to statehood as they are now recognized as a non-member observer state. Hopefully the world sees both sides of the story and that both conflicting parties go into negotiations towards a two-state peaceful solution and put an end this long and dragged out conflict

9DrSPFYXUfQ

[oxmox 73]

Just one day after the UN votes and the upgraded status, Israel declares to push their settlements and build 3000 new ones in the Westbank and Jerusalem.

Iam really curios what this new upgraded UN status means in practice, probably just talks and violence like in the decades before...

Next step, Israel has seized more than $120million in tax revenues it collects on behalf of the Palestinian Authority in response to last week's overwhelming vote at the UN general assembly to recognise the state of Palestine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/02/israel-palestinian-tax-revenue-un-vote

This conflict is a treadmill....

Edited December 2, 2012 by oxmox

[spooky lynx 73]

Am I wrong or is it really less people who support zionism in general and Israelis in particular now than 5-6 years ago?

[Tonci87 163]

Am I wrong or is it really less people who support zionism in general and Israelis in particular now than 5-6 years ago?

I think you are right.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I think it probable that Israeli's recognize that Israel's standing in the rest of the world has been declining since the current Israeli administration came into power, dont they?

Will the Israeli people take the oportunity at the comming elections to rid it self of this albatross of an administration; an administration that has made one failed strategic decision after another, throughout its term?

Are Israeli's aware their nation needs a change in order to have a future?

It looks increasingly likely that as a result of Israel's intransigence on the matter of the illegal settlements many of the countries who at first abstained in the vote will subsequently recognise Palestine due to the stategic errors the current Israeli administration are making.

3 December 2012 Last updated at 11:15

456ShareFacebookTwitter.UK summons Israel ambassador over settlements

The UK has summoned Israel's ambassador in London over the plans to expand settlement building in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The Foreign Office warned of a "strong reaction", but dismissed reports that the British ambassador in Tel Aviv could be withdrawn, as "speculation".

Israel authorised 3,000 additional housing units a day after the UN voted to upgrade Palestinian status.

The UN expressed "disappointment", but Israel has vowed to continue building.

The country's ambassador to London, Daniel Taub, has been called to the Foreign Office for a meeting with minister for the Middle East, Alistair Burt...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20578684

As always follow the link to the original article in full

Are the Israeli people being made aware of how badly this reflects on Israel internationaly and on Israel's future relations with alies?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20579248

Israel's latest move has its friends tearing their hair out

By Jake Wallis Simons World Last updated: December 3rd, 2012

Whenever Israel hits the headlines – which tends to be in the context of political controversy rather than, say, world-leading scientific research and innovation – many commentators have an instinct to spring to Israel’s defence. Take the recent conflict in Gaza as an example. Despite the very strong, even obvious, argument of self-defence, which was accepted by the majority of the leaders of the democratic world, and despite the great care with which Israel conducted the military campaign in one of the most challenging conflict zones in the world, the same old accusations flew. Rogue state. Child killers. You know the sort.

Recent events, however, demonstrate why Israel is such a frustrating country to support. In the run-up to the vote at the UN, which resulted in the enhancement of the status of Palestine, I argued that in order to retain the support it had garnered Israel needed to freeze settlement building and respect the Palestinian right to self-determination. This, it seemed to me, was as obvious as Israel's right to self defence. The rights and wrongs of the issue were no longer of primary relevance; without compromising security, Israel needed to make a gesture that would put the ball firmly in the Palestinian court. We’re serious about peace, it should have said. Are you?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jakewallissimons/100192486/israels-latest-move-has-its-friends-tearing-their-hair-out/

As always follow the link to the original article in full

Clearly the current Israeli administration shows it is not a partner in peace.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jBe7qy6pBheonWBU-8dgk0EEFaJw?docId=CNG.b19c92489e1389e5dafe467dd258b00e.441

Even the USA appears to be becoming exasperated with the current Israeli administration.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/world/middleeast/israel-moves-to-expand-settlements-in-east-jerusalem.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Can Israel have a future if Israel continues to be lumbered with an Israeli administration that continues to be so intransigent?

Kind Regards walker

Edited December 3, 2012 by walker

[spooky lynx 73]

Israeli people can afford such failed decisions because the "anti-zionist/anti-Israel's policy = nazi" card is still strong now. I dealt with it IRL - when you publicly disagree with Israel's policy and have some doubts in the goals and methods of zionist movement you are labeled as fascist and anti-semite in a minute. The latter looks ironic because I take Arab's side mostly and they are semites too:p

[mrcash2009 0]

the "anti-zionist/anti-Israel's policy = nazi" card is still strong now. I dealt with it IRL - when you publicly disagree with Israel's policy and have some doubts in the goals and methods of zionist movement you are labeled as fascist and anti-semite in a minute..

True indeed. The ADL seem to want to bat for the entire team (not all are wanting to be on the team though) although they mostly do the same things:

http://www.adl.org/

Interesting front page article and image used (cherry picked):

Since the start of the Israeli military action to stop rockets from being fired from Gaza, more than 100 anti-Israel rallies and demonstrations have taken place across the United States, with more than one-third of the total taking place on college campuses.

No doubt later they will be brandished similar and the "domestic terror" card thrown in using some sub law sprinkled on top.

Edited December 3, 2012 by mrcash2009

[kireta21 13]

All honestly, 95% times I hear this term, it's someone claiming it's Jewish general counter-argument to cut any discussion.

If not for them, I would probably think it's some kind of fertilizer, medicine or maybe weed-killer.

[seba1976 98]

So you're saying it's immoral to try to make the regime change it's mind by imposing embargos against them, if you keep invasion as an option in case they don't stop whatever bad thing they're up to?

In other words, trying a less violent option first is immoral?

I don't think anyone gave Sweden the right to police the world.

That comparison doesn't make sense because it does not replicate the real life circumstances, unless we assume that your rather strange way of viewing embargos is the only accepted school of thinking.

It's not "rather strange" :), its the view of the countries that suffer the embargos. You're probably not in a position to know and that's all.

Who can judge what happens in my country except my fellow nationals? Why do countries like the US (not Sweden) are able to tell what's wrong and what's right?

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------

When you think about it, Israel itself isnt a secular state.

So religion plays a bigger role in their politics not only in arab countries.

Not even in arab countries. Survival comes first, though channeled with religious words perhaps. I mean goverments and country decisions here only.

[katipo66 94]

What did they achieve by bombing a little the terrorists' assets?

An overwhelming UN vote against and fast changing world opinion...

[[frl]myke 14]

Lads, i deleted a few posts that headed into a problematic direction. I respect opinions of directly (locally) involved people so i don't want to be too harsh at this point. Those who are missing posts are kindly asked to not go the same route again.

Politics is always a difficult topic. Please try to remain as objective as possible. Whatever your feelings are, suggesting killing is not tolerated in this forums.

Please believe me that i try to keep the discussion running as long as possible and i would really appreciate if you contribute with the posts you make. Not directed to anyone particular, just generally speaking.

Thank you.

[void_false 1]

WOW. You left me speechless for a minute. So only one opinion that Israel is evil is accepted here? You should add it to the forum rules then.

[[frl]myke 14]

WOW. You left me speechless for a minute. So only one opinion that Israel is evil is accepted here? You should add it to the forum rules then.

Neither Israeli talking about killing Palestinians are tolerated nor vice versa. You're entitled to your opinion but do not suggest to kill anyone. This is the point.

Edited December 3, 2012 by [FRL]Myke
fixed typo

[hellfire257 3]

You're both right. In the interests of a good discussion, both sides should be heard. Unfortunately, such discussions often lead to flaming, so I can understand Myke's perspective as well.

[hellfire257 3]

I don't think you can level Gaza without harming at least some of the the indigenous populace.

[void_false 1]

As I wrote, we need to free Gaza from terrorist HAMAS government. I didn't say anything about killing. Much the opposite, I said that it won't solve anything. If their support from Iran is cut then there will be no fighting.

[maturin 12]

That doesn't make sense. There was war in Gaza when Iran was still under the Shah and a western ally. You can't free a country from an elected government. With the blockade there can be no peace, and neither can a blockade against Iranian (or any) arms be effective, especially after the fall of Mubarak.

Israeli people can afford such failed decisions because the "anti-zionist/anti-Israel's policy = nazi" card is still strong now. I dealt with it IRL - when you publicly disagree with Israel's policy and have some doubts in the goals and methods of zionist movement you are labeled as fascist and anti-semite in a minute. The latter looks ironic because I take Arab's side mostly and they are semites too

Politically, I oppose Israel's entire colonial and apartheid project. But the reality is, in the world outside the U.S., real anti-semitism (surging in Europe right now) creates a double standard the gets Israel an enormous amount of blame. It's a complicated topic because Israel deserves the condemnation it gets, but there are many countries that do far worse things with no repercussions, and part of the reason for that is anti-semitism. And it gets even more complicated because there should be a double-standard. Countries that claim to be enlightened democracies and friends of the West should be held to higher standards of behavior.

And anti-semitism purely refers to hatred of Jews, even though the etymology is inaccurate. Just like Islamophobia refers hatred of Muslims rather than a clinically irrational fear like agoraphobia, etc.

Edited December 3, 2012 by maturin

[seba1976 98]

OK, it's not easy to go on when you can't get personal, and I was sure void_false wouldn't have replied telling the solution was to kill everyone, but I'll do my best. I understand Myke's position somehow.

So void_false, what I'm asking you instead, is if you acknowledge that you don't have a solution to the problem, which is what most of the world sees, or don't see, a viable solution that does not imply killing civilians. I'm not against you or the Israelis. I understand you would rather be in another situation altogether. I just want to know whether you think you have a solution for the crisis, or not.

[void_false 1]

Hitler was elected in democratic way too, remember? There's a video from one arab guy about how HAMAS "achieves" support among Gaza population but I cant post it here since its content violates forum rules.

You can't free a country from an elected government.

Technically speaking, we have all the resources needed to do it (:

---------- Post added at 01:13 ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 ----------

OK, it's not easy to go on when you can't get personal, and I was sure void_false wouldn't have replied telling the solution was to kill everyone, but I'll do my best. I understand Myke's position somehow.

So void_false, what I'm asking you instead, is if you acknowledge that you don't have a solution to the problem, which is what most of the world sees, or don't see, a viable solution that does not imply killing civilians. I'm not against you or the Israelis. I understand you would rather be in another situation altogether. I just want to know whether you think you have a solution for the crisis, or not.

I didn't suggest killing everyone. I was speaking figuratively "what if". The post is deleted so I can't quote what I wrote. My solution was voiced twice already. The place shouldn't be governed by terrorist organization and Iranian supply of weapons should be cut.

[kireta21 13]

Solution could be strong international control of Gaza Strip (read: UN doing something useful for a change). Presence of blue helmets would discoruage Hamas from violence, since few bad placed bombs and bodybags sent back to Europe would make all those years of painting themself as resistance go to hell.

See Kosovo. Kosovo Protection Corps (former Kosovo Liberation Army) aren't exactly nice guys, they may want all their guns back, and not like KFOR presence at all, but unless they want to be rolled over by Serbian Army again, they have to play by their rules.

This is good scenario.

Bad scenario is Hamas declaring blue helmets as yet another occupant forcess and starting Third Intifada. Now, doctrines say when enemy guerillas have support from local population, you'll need 20:1 ratio to win. Al-Qassam Brigades are like 10 thousand men strong, that means you'll need like 200.000 soldiers to control Gaza without going all out Kosovo-style. Which would be only a bit more merciful IMHO than droping nuke on them.

The thing is, with amount of bad blood between Israel and Gaza (West Bank is different story) only bad scenario is avaliable for IDF.