Israel - Gaza - What should we do if anything.

[vilas 477]

................

i used .... not to quote whole post

the problem is of another kind,

we may hate politics, politicians as much we can, many of us know that human worst enemy is "elite" (financial, poltical, military, legal - many psychopaths making harm to rest of people who are forced to pay taxes for them)

but problem is that their decisions may cause harm to others, may change life we have or make this life worse,

you can not care about politics, but politics care about you, especially for your tax money, for your time, enforcing you, forbidding etc.

until we cannot execute 99% of politicians, we have problems because of them all around globe , no matter of so called "system" (communism, socialism, capitalism, liberalism, whatever-ism)

a lot of problems spread from one region to another region,

for example war in one region causes mass people flow to another region and destabilizes society in this another region (because of growing multi-culti),

or war in one region makes financial costs in second region and destabilizes economy of this second region,

so it is important where is what war, cause this war has influence on many aspects of our lives, on way of spending our taxes, on way of wasting our taxes, on way of production of goods and market, on immigration and dangers of it (examples given some posts ago)

if there would be peace there, they would live their way not interrupt our lives and our money would be spend on our own production not on supporting those who think they support ;) i am not US citizen, 3 bilions of USD are not spent from my pockets, but my gov. also spends/waste some money to support Israel buying things they do while we can do those things ourselves (causing here unemployment in closed factory town while for example our army uses some Israeli stuff , it is not 3 bilions of USD, but also some places of work for some technicians, engineers, cooks, workers, electricians etc. who later emigrate, leave families, divide families, children suffer cause dad works 1000 miles away etc. etc. etc. ) :/

if it was just their war (in Gaza region) world would not be as much interested but US taxpayer and other taxpayers probably would like to see other things bought for such 3 bilions as for example new hospital or faster ambulance or maybe park with ducks in town etc. and vice versa someone would be able to get better payed job but immigrants taken it cheaper plus picked up local girls etc. etc. etc.

wars make problems not only in their regions but making problems spread wide circle of several hundreds or even thousands of miles,

in our best interest (taxes, immigration=competition we can't stand) it is to stop wars there :]

you live in Russia, you don't pay for this conflict, we have to pay for it "on the west" , especially US citizens pay for it from their taxes, we in Poland also pay for it ordering Isreali stuff instead of our own (while there is 13% of unemployment + 5% of population emigrated, there are regions where there used to be arms factories which now are closed )

Edited December 5, 2012 by vilas

[kireta21 13]

So now, as a tax payer, I can breathe freely knowing that money that I earn won't be used by my enemy to produce weapons and such. Also, I'm very happy to see that I won't pay my enemy's bills for electricity, gas and water. So yeah, for them the freebie is over.

Yeah, this can make you feel better, but in a long run it will only make things worse.

"Tribute" existed to ballance out economical sanctions and limitation forced on Palestine by Israel. If you don't allow people to be self-sufficient, and the you ask them to cover all their living expenses... well, hope you follow.

And I can't really imagine better gift for Palestinians radicals. The worse things get, the more people will listen to them. You would be suprised how many would gladly trade freedom for safety if given choise. If you take away that safety it's only expected that Hamas influence over West Bank will increase, since Fatah failed to provide safety.

[oxmox 73]

Very simple. Israel citizens pay taxes, then Israel government takes that money and streams it as a tribute to "Palestine". Now our government grew balls to end this absurd.

Excuse me, but I did not read that arab palestinians dont pay any at all. There are not many informations to find about the taxation system in the West Bank & Gaza, but some sources and newspapers talk about certain taxes. Iam carefully here, therefore I asked if you know about it and about income taxes which were planned.

What I did read so far is the following:

The Government of Israel is in full control of the Gaza and WestBank boarders, they decide about the import of products which are a lot israelian products but also products from worldwide. The arabs are heavily dependant on imports.

Palestinians who are importing products have to pay VAT tax (15-17%) to Israel and in addition the customs tax. There was an agreement that the payed taxes by arabs are going back to the Palestinian Authority. Allegedly, they have an overall VAT tax in the arab areas aswell and a while ago there were discussions about income taxes, but I dont know how is the progress here. Wikipedia writes (donno if the numbers are correct), that in 2005 the Palestinian Authority (PA) did collect 35$ million dollars per month and Israel did collect around 75$ million dollars per month in tariffs on foreign imports and VAT.

There are around 150.000 palestinians who are working in Israel itself and paying taxes.

Since Israel has the major control of water ressources on arab areas and provides electricity, a part of the tax revenue is used to pay the bills. Gaza owns a single power plant, not sure about the West Bank.

So these taxes got frozen by Israel a couple of days ago what you read in the news.

What I dont find are the plans or maybe existing income taxes. Not sure about social contributions for healthcare and so on...

In general you dont find huge informations how things work...

Edited December 5, 2012 by oxmox

[vilas 477]

regarding who pays , a joke, a metaphor:

woman sits on chair and plays crosswords from newspaper,

suddenly asks husband "-hi, what does it mean confusion ? "

husband says "-i will try to explain it, you see... once you are back from work and you see me and another woman in our bed, so the state that you feel than we call "confusion" "

"-ooo i understand, so when you are back from work and you see me with our neighbor in our bed, this will be confusion, am i right?? "

"-no way, this will be goddamn betrayal !!!"

[walker 0]

Hi all

Clearly under the current Israeli administration peace is not an option.

It there for makes sense to just ignore Israel and concentrate on positive actions involving Palestine. Enabling the new state to thrive and become more viable. As I pointed out earlier actions to secure Palestines borders and International relations are needed, followed by Palestine enacting its own Taxation system. A Palestinian currency is needed. This can probably be backed by Arab moneys to start off and traded as with others, by doing this Palestine will free itself of external economic pressures.

The institution of a Palestinian currency will be a powerful statement of National status.

Kind Regards walker

[ProfTournesol 956]

I agree with Walker on that one. Palestine needs to get out of the ghetto.

[MAVEN 1]

i used .... not to quote whole post

Lots of truth there.

I am born in Russia, however I am working abroad at the moment, in a dangerous place even, so I am very familiar with what conflicts and political tensions can bring.

To me location doesn't matter much, I travel often and world along with it's many countries and cultures reminds of that big and dangerous muddy pass in Lord Of The Rings where some paths are safe and other lead to deep mud or even worse a trap, other than that it all stands between same destinations and since in 21st century people are connected more than ever before borders have less and less meaning. Local scuffles and military conflicts are just a game nowadays. Just like we may place AI bots in a mission editor and press Preview then see what happens, big leaders toss soldiers on the field and play this dangerous game, then later on meet with eachother, have a luxury-filled dinner or whatever and call it a day.

[scrim 1]

Had Israel started the ground invasion, we would have saw what the new democracy in Egypt had to say about it. Very likely the people would have pressure their newly elected goverment to protect Gaza from Israel.

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------

I well-intentioned war... good lord.

Well, what would the Egyptians say about it? What could they do to Israel? Go to war? Considering the current state of Egyptian internal affairs, that'd be much like what the Russian Tsar did in 1914. IIRC, they didn't really beat Germany into submission, nor did it help at home. Also take the US foreign aid into consideration. Egypt wouldn't see much of that if they acted out against Israel.

Besides, you might like to ask the Egyptians who are out on the streets protesting what they think about your claims hat Egypt is a democracy.

A well intentioned war? That's pretty much what you implied Egypt would embark on against Israel.

[seba1976 98]

Well, what would the Egyptians say about it? What could they do to Israel? Go to war? Considering the current state of Egyptian internal affairs, that'd be much like what the Russian Tsar did in 1914. IIRC, they didn't really beat Germany into submission, nor did it help at home. Also take the US foreign aid into consideration. Egypt wouldn't see much of that if they acted out against Israel.

Besides, you might like to ask the Egyptians who are out on the streets protesting what they think about your claims hat Egypt is a democracy.

A well intentioned war? That's pretty much what you implied Egypt would embark on against Israel.

We're poles apart scrim, it's useless to keep this exchange.

[spooky lynx 73]

Seems like IDF doesn't even need any embargo:cool:

[slatts 1978]

Bloody thieving pikeys robbing metal to melt it down for money is all ;)

[vilas 477]

Seba1976, you suggest that well intentioned-wars do not exist (cause all wars are not well intentione, am i correct ?), but please tell me, how can world react on danger of growing of Islam in Europe ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2226408/Sara-Ege-beat-son-Yaseen-death-set-body-struggled-learn-Koran-heart.html

?

we re gonna have troubles here in decades (or you are not from Europe?)

Gaza conflict is not only 2 states conflict, it is 2 civilisations conflict, thats why some pages ago i said that no matter of all bad and ugly IDF and Isreali gov. actions i'd rather them in control of this region than others

Edited December 7, 2012 by vilas

[[frl]myke 14]

Vilas, the problem isn't the Islam in itself, the problem are the religious fanatics and they exist in every religion, see Ireland where christians fight against christians. Stupid enough, isn't it? The problem lies in the fact that some people think they are more right than others. They fail to accept that other people may have other ideas. Myself being atheist, my son is baptized just so he may chose later what he wants to believe and if he decides to believe in a christian god, he will not have problems because he wasn't baptized. I believe what i believe but i do not force him to believe the same. Would be great if more people could think that way.

After all, believing is "not knowing" and when i die one day, it might happen that i see Morgan Freeman and he is like "Surprise!". :D

[vilas 477]

but in some religions/cultures (it is not only religion , it can be also culture, see Roms/Gypsies altitude to yours property vs. their own property) there are more "fanatics" and level of "fanatism" is different , it is like level of education that in some countries "all knows math" and in some regions "some can read" ,

Nother Ireland was from my point of view more issue of British Empire politics and post-colonial problem than religious (cause Brits taken part of other island which was separated by sea) so religion was there "something keeping tradition" ,

i am also atheist, but when i look at "humankind around and all morons i know from my neighborhood" i believe "they need to afraid of hell and they need promise of heaven to be good cause they are too weak to live honestly without so called gods" (i know a lot of examples of people that without being afraid of "hell" make hell to others ... on earth and people good to others because they wait for heaven's reward which without god would be "carpe diem, steal from others to have money for fun", religion decreases number of egoists in population), the only problem is "which god to give them, to make them peaceful" seems that "there must be only one god to avoid wars, so other gods must be vanished to vanish reasons for war" (this is EU philosophy and socialistic philosophy "make redistribution in economy to avoid society tensions between too poor and too rich")

so i would not believe that this is only a matter of "any religion" but more matter of "this religion"

in idea of socialism human should work less, have fun, machines work to make human be more lazy, more free time on hobby, stronger helps weaker, in real it looks like more "street-wise" only drinks more beer and do watch TV without working at all for tax money of this more rich and when machines enter manufacturer rest of people is unemployed and those who left work 12h per day instead of all working 4h/day

so ideology of "it is all due to religions" do not convince me, cause "many percent of population need something to be afraid of to not beat you and some promise to be good to you thinking about reward post mortem" :)

i don't know if you ever worked/been among people with low iq, low education etc.

they really do good things to others "cause Jesus will reward me in heaven if i will help" they do not help to help because of empathy, they calculate "years in heaven and years in hell spend because of some deeds" ;) "after beating your wife need to pray 3 times and give 100 PLN on charity and help blind to cross the street or help disabled person to pick heavy luggage for 10 minuts" ;)

so i 'd rather think "which civilisation will make less harm to me in future and which won't interrupt what i am used to" (Kekkedal's Christmas Tree which i love because it is cute tradition and i love all those flashing color lights and bulbs and round glass or free movement on streets during friday in some cities in France)

Edited December 7, 2012 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Myke;2261660']Vilas' date=' the problem isn't the Islam in itself, [b']the problem are the religious fanatics and they exist in every religion, see Ireland where christians fight against christians. Stupid enough, isn't it? The problem lies in the fact that some people think they are more right than others. They fail to accept that other people may have other ideas.[/b] Myself being atheist, my son is baptized just so he may chose later what he wants to believe and if he decides to believe in a christian god, he will not have problems because he wasn't baptized. I believe what i believe but i do not force him to believe the same. Would be great if more people could think that way.

After all, believing is "not knowing" and when i die one day, it might happen that i see Morgan Freeman and he is like "Surprise!". :D

^this!

[scrim 1]

The Troubles in NI wasn't caused by religious fanatics. They were caused by a rift between those who wished to see NI part of the Irish republic, and those who wanted it to remain British. Those who wanted it to be part of Ireland tended to be Catholics, as they had historically been very badly treated by the British, and those who wanted to stay British tended to be Protestants or Anglicans as they had been favourably treated under British rule.

[MAVEN 1]

but in some religions/cultures (it is not only religion , it can be also culture, see Roms/Gypsies altitude to yours property vs. their own property) there are more "fanatics" and level of "fanatism" is different , it is like level of education that in some countries "all knows math" and in some regions "some can read" ,

Nother Ireland was from my point of view more issue of British Empire politics and post-colonial problem than religious (cause Brits taken part of other island which was separated by sea) so religion was there "something keeping tradition" ,

i am also atheist, but when i look at "humankind around and all morons i know from my neighborhood" i believe "they need to afraid of hell and they need promise of heaven to be good cause they are too weak to live honestly without so called gods" (i know a lot of examples of people that without being afraid of "hell" make hell to others ... on earth and people good to others because they wait for heaven's reward which without god would be "carpe diem, steal from others to have money for fun", religion decreases number of egoists in population), the only problem is "which god to give them, to make them peaceful" seems that "there must be only one god to avoid wars, so other gods must be vanished to vanish reasons for war" (this is EU philosophy and socialistic philosophy "make redistribution in economy to avoid society tensions between too poor and too rich")

so i would not believe that this is only a matter of "any religion" but more matter of "this religion"

in idea of socialism human should work less, have fun, machines work to make human be more lazy, more free time on hobby, stronger helps weaker, in real it looks like more "street-wise" only drinks more beer and do watch TV without working at all for tax money of this more rich and when machines enter manufacturer rest of people is unemployed and those who left work 12h per day instead of all working 4h/day

so ideology of "it is all due to religions" do not convince me, cause "many percent of population need something to be afraid of to not beat you and some promise to be good to you thinking about reward post mortem" :)

i don't know if you ever worked/been among people with low iq, low education etc.

they really do good things to others "cause Jesus will reward me in heaven if i will help" they do not help to help because of empathy, they calculate "years in heaven and years in hell spend because of some deeds" ;) "after beating your wife need to pray 3 times and give 100 PLN on charity and help blind to cross the street or help disabled person to pick heavy luggage for 10 minuts" ;)

so i 'd rather think "which civilisation will make less harm to me in future and which won't interrupt what i am used to" (Kekkedal's Christmas Tree which i love because it is cute tradition and i love all those flashing color lights and bulbs and round glass or free movement on streets during friday in some cities in France)

^this!

I do agree, Vilas.

Most people misunderstand meaning of religion in general, that's why there's such a high diversity and hostility in the world. Religion is something that gives one human being a reason to live his/her life and achieve things, a guide on how to get the best out of the life he/she has been given and in the end get reward of punishment for his actions. So yes, it's not the religion as core reason, but it's a start. Just like fire needs a spark. And just like you could go to a bank and loan some money then repay it later, you could get percentage reward at the end or end up in debt.

Tonci. That's exactly what's happening around the world today (bold quoted text) I don't know do you know about, but I've been working in Balkani region for two years (notice I'm half Macedonian by origin) and for that period of time I learned what's going on in Central Europe. For the Balkani region, it's not religion, it's something deeper that's terribly wrong. It goes around 1000 years back when the Balkani countries fell under Ottoman Jihadism influence (notice not Ottoman Empire as so many people misunderstand it, Ottoman Empire hired Ottoman Jihadists to do their dirty work) and after centuries of jihadist havoc those countries endured and fell under it's influence, they became exactly the same as their tormentors, except 10 maybe 20 times worse, so from 90's onwards you have former Christianity region terribly devastated and it's people very misguided, and abused for illicit actions. Many of the Balkani countries sent their military resources to support jihadism in Syrian, Egyptian, etc conflicts in a hope they will "win over the world with jihadists brothers" That's sick, and so low because not only does NATO, UN, and other peacekeeping organizations know about and do something about it (Several peacekeeping missions in the past for example) but nations such as Russia, China, Germany etc unite with those organizations, form new military units and help cleanse the mess that's been made out there.

A colleague of mine asked a random native from there "Can you describe Catholics, are they Christian, Muslim, Jewish or other?" and a reply came up with broken English "No, they not Christian they different" and then my colleague already surprised asked "So what are they then? And what are you if you don't mind telling us?" and a reply followed "They a sect, I Christian" And to a question "What kind of Christianity do you practice?" The even more shocking reply followed "Just Christian, we are real Christians, there are no others" My colleague then moved on to ask several other randoms, with very much same answers, except few who actually knew what's going on around them (Kudos to them, I hope they got out of that hellhole). I won't name the place though, don't want to put anyone in embarrassing situation, we all make mistakes. But yes, psychos like that are the ones who make all the trouble and prevent the normal people from living a normal and peaceful life, regardless of his/her religion, skin color or race.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Imaginary friends huh.

Kind Regards Walker

[mrcash2009 0]

Hi all

Imaginary friends huh.

§1) No Flaming/Flame-baiting/bigotry

Tsk, Tsk. :rolleyes:

Its almost ludicrous to have an opinion on this subject while holding a unchecked view about religion, this entire world is based on a religious war under the surface, that whole thing is becuase of it, but it can get a bit too much of that subject which may be "wobbly" for this thread :)

Off topic bit:

Just for the record and keeping it as short as possible, Catholicism = Rome = Man acting as gods on the earth changing times and laws (Calendar/Christmas/Human Rights laws and so on), True Christianity = Personal relationship to god through Jesus Christ based on biblical law (Geneva Bible) and not going to another man for confession or in fact idolising another human, this is also Prodestant (to protest against/keep truth against - in most cases Papal Rule ... IE: man playing god on earth .. which as you can see is working lovely right now isn't it). Ironic that the bible (non watered down manipulated renditions IE Geneva Bible) calls out Rome/Vatican at end times. If people truly study the entire subject matter and also just how much control and power Vatican/Rome has incl rule over you (Financial/Social/Geopolitical/Global), things would not seem so confusing or crazy.

All roads lead to Rome as they say.

BTW this isnt anything to do with attacking belief etc, just the "systems" .. IE Not liking wars does not mean your attacking the ground troops, if that makes more sense.

But anyway ... thats "that" subject and isnt fully about Gaza itself and the moment so sorry moderators.

Edited December 10, 2012 by mrcash2009

[Dosenmais 10]

This hole "palistain vs. israel" debate is a political football wo gets played around with.

Its a total arbitrary case of two tribes who fight and kill each other for religion and land.

Both play with dirty tricks, both are the puppets of forgin powers, both have their ranks filled up with religioes loons and psychophats.

Yeah, i know israel is funded by the lobby in the US. Yeah i know the Fatah was infiltrated and build up by the CIA. Yeah i know the Hamas was founded by Israeli intelligence services. Yeah i know the PLO was financed and trained by the KGB. I know all that stuff and i don't care anymore.

When the forgin powers would not longer finance this conflict, it just would bleed out. Young israelis are tired of the draft who force them to serve as canon fooder. They don't want to breath the deadly dust from the DU-Ammonition the IDF fires in the Gaza Stripe. The Palistinians are tired of the blockade and want to do some business without daily raids, checkpoints and restriction of their markets. And so on...

But now that the third reich rooted and CIA controlled Muslim Brotherhood is in charge of egypt, they will use the palistinians as some kind of buffer zone and gip head against Israel, things just would get worse.

Whatever, i don't care anymore. Its always tragic if people kill each other for nonsense, but Israel is a arbitrary case just as so many others on this planet.

[Tonci87 163]

This hole "palistain vs. israel" debate is a political football wo gets played around with.

Its a total arbitrary case of two tribes who fight and kill each other for religion and land.

Both play with dirty tricks, both are the puppets of forgin powers, both have their ranks filled up with religioes loons and psychophats.

Yeah, i know israel is funded by the lobby in the US. Yeah i know the Fatah was infiltrated and build up by the CIA. Yeah i know the Hamas was founded by Israeli intelligence services. Yeah i know the PLO was financed and trained by the KGB. I know all that stuff and i don't care anymore.

When the forgin powers would not longer finance this conflict, it just would bleed out. Young israelis are tired of the draft who force them to serve as canon fooder. They don't want to breath the deadly dust from the DU-Ammonition the IDF fires in the Gaza Stripe. The Palistinians are tired of the blockade and want to do some business without daily raids, checkpoints and restriction of their markets. And so on...

But now that the third reich rooted and CIA controlled Muslim Brotherhood is in charge of egypt, they will use the palistinians as some kind of buffer zone and gip head against Israel, things just would get worse.

Whatever, i don't care anymore. Its always tragic if people kill each other for nonsense, but Israel is a arbitrary case just as so many others on this planet.

WTF?!

[scrim 1]

BTW this isnt anything to do with attacking belief etc, just the "systems" .. IE Not liking wars does not mean your attacking the ground troops, if that makes more sense.

No, you're just saying that Catholics aren't true Christians, because they adhere to Catholicism (wonder if there's a connection?), as opposed to Protestantism, which you ever so fairly labeled as "true Christianity". Thanks a lot, didn't you mention something about flaming in your post?

Dosenmais: Why on Earth would the Israelis fire DU rounds against buildings/infantry? All you'd end up with would be a neat little hole that goes through like at least 5 buildings causing just about as little damage you possibly can with a tank shell, or straight into the ground. The whole "they're killing us with DU" sounds about as honest as when they were shouting that the Israelis were using WP against civilians every time an F-16 dropped flares way up in the sky.

Edited December 17, 2012 by scrim

[katipo66 94]

What's interesting to me is the complete control Israel has over the American senate, where they have big influence on who the President decides who's in his team, I understood they had influence but this is... Ridiculous? The American government seems to be made up with Israeli interest (only?) to the fore, explains a lot I guess, long deep rabbit whole though.

[mrcash2009 0]

No, you're just saying that Catholics aren't true Christians, because they adhere to Catholicism (wonder if there's a connection?), as opposed to Protestantism, which you ever so fairly labeled as "true Christianity". Thanks a lot, didn't you mention something about flaming in your post?

If you study a real bible (Geneva) you will see that Rome is the "little horn" of which is certainly not teaching Jesus as a saviour (Christianity in its TRUE form), they teach Mother Mary (IE goddess worship) and also man as gods (taking the role of christ) so that's why, and the only connection is the name ref only. Also its about the hierarchy of Catholicism not all Catholics as some blame game (As I mentioned questioning the military isnt hating the troops).

I mentioned Protestantism becuase those in that group were fighting for the actual notion of Jesus/Saviour, and so they were at logger heads with Rome (why do you think christians were burned at the steak and tortured with geneva bibles around thier necks by catholosism "christians" you dont do that to your own do you), these are historic facts, but if you want to use it for a self created argument be my guest. In no way can confirming historic facts be flaming someone in here, If you refer to me quoted the "rules" it was just about one section not all of it, none of us are perfect we all have our fare share of it here.

Either way its off topic so that's that basicly.

Edited December 17, 2012 by mrcash2009

[walker 0]

Hi all

Given Syria's current crisis and the risks it entails:

http://www.examiner.com/article/panetta-warns-syria-not-to-use-chemical-or-biological-weapons

Israel would be better served if its current administration were not constantly rattling the middle east cage:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-pushes-ahead-with-plan-to-build-in-east-jerusalem-8423315.html

The settler program as well as being illegal and angering Israel's erstwhile allies seems set to split Israel and tip the Middle East into WWIII.

Still it would make the End is Nigh Myan callender fools happy.

Worried walker

Edited December 18, 2012 by walker