Steam discussion

[avaricei35 10]

can we get the arma 3 supporter edition without steam?

[chortles 263]

No, the bundled games (Arma X and Arma: CWA) are delivered as Steam Gifts.

[krycek 349]

Have you ever installed A2 and OA 1.00-1.61 and with all DLCs?

Yup,easy peasy,in this order:A2-OA-PMC-BAF-1.59-1.60-1.62

Compared to OFP it is a friggin' huge improvement.

Regarding micro-scratches I haven't been affected by them and let me tell you I have some really ancient HL1+Opposing Force and Starcraft+Broodwar cds.

I had more probs actually starting the installation process on those games due to Win7 acting bitchy with stuff this old than having rom errors due to faulty reading.

[starstreams 0]

Just because Steam is the distributor of choice at this moment for BI it doesn't mean if Steam GOES DOWN RIGHT NOW everything is lost and you'll never play Arma 3 again. Those are worst case scenarios which have plans of action on how to handle them.

If you want to fear for something, it would be much more likely that all of servers that host BI's source code get set on fire at the exact same time, than it is that all of Steam CDNs stop working suddenly.

The point you're missing, and its the same thing I keep saying again, and again, but people don't seem to get it: We don't want to rely on a service to access our games. We don't want to deal with activation servers since it's been proven time and time again that it doesn't work for hackers. It's the innocent who actually paid for the product that gets inconvenienced.

I can't believe people don't get it.

Firstly, let me ask you a few things: Steam is a distribution service, and it's also an activation service ..right? (there are two things it handles)

Didn't we have these things before? We had activation, and we had bis providing updates via their host. So what is steam needed for? Don't give me this BS just about BIS not being able to find a host to host their game image and any updates. And don't tell me there are no other activation services out there that wouldn't require you to install some TOS application like steam which is more then just an application, it's a contract among other things only the future could prove.

Is steam going to fix all the past issues with missing mod files in custom mod content? No, it's still going to be an issue. The only reason steam is being used is because someone worked out a deal with them at the end users convince.

Wake up people, get out of bed already.

I feel sorry for this new generation.

"Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It"

Edited June 9, 2013 by starstreams

[dmarkwick 261]

The point you're missing, and its the same thing I keep saying again, and again, but people don't seem to get it: We don't want to rely on a service to access our games. We don't want to deal with activation servers since it's been proven time and time again that it doesn't work for hackers. It's the innocent who actually paid for the product that gets inconvenienced.

I can't believe people don't get it.

Firstly, let me ask you a few things: Steam is a distribution service, and it's also an activation service ..right? (there are two things it handles)

Didn't we have these things before? We had activation, and we had bis providing updates via their host. So what is steam needed for? Don't give me this BS just about BIS not being able to find a host to host their game image and any updates. And don't tell me there are no other activation services out there that wouldn't require you to install some TOS application like steam which is more then just an application, it's a contract among other things only the future could prove.

Is steam going to fix all the past issues with missing mod files in custom mod content? No, it's still going to be an issue. The only reason steam is being used is because someone worked out a deal with them at the end users convince.

Wake up people, get out of bed already.

I feel sorry for this new generation.

"Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It"

I agree with all this.

But, I will say that it (Steam) makes sense for the alpha/beta stage of the release. When there is a final product, I say go for it & release via Sprocket too.

[tonygrunt 10]

I agree with all this.

But, I will say that it (Steam) makes sense for the alpha/beta stage of the release. When there is a final product, I say go for it & release via Sprocket too.

Not possible at the moment. There is no serial attached to player id anymore, so your player id is your steam account id. So MP authentication is done by steam or a combination of steam and gamespy.

[chortles 263]

starstreams, I'm just going to point out once again that the Steamworks announcement basically said "our development convenience and getting Arma 3 out as a $60 retail game in 2013 > your 'choice', we knew you were going to be upset but we did it anyway."

As I mentioned before, in response to starstreams' question about the Steam service (and any resource impact) I found that you can actually close the Steam service after launching the game using Windows Task Manager to kill the corresponding processes, but doing so breaks MP connectivity and it took some finangling to get it back, which is consistent with what TonyGrunt mentioned that Steam is involved in the MP framework, right down to the error message for trying to connect without the Steam processes running... and to reiterate, considering what was said about that other Steam thread -- that despite the general consensus stuff against stuff like achievements or Steam Workshop, there was a clear consensus in favor of Steam server browser -- I wouldn't be surprised if that "Steam is underlying Arma 3 MP" is here to stay.

[Dwarden 1125]

there is no security in Alpha so w/e claims about 'it doesn't work' you have they all invalid by default ...

[chortles 263]

I didn't say anything about VAC or security... though the choice of VAC as an option for server admins alongside BE is cool.

[Dwarden 1125]

nobody is talking about VAC

[xyberviri 1]

I just got to ask do all the anti steam people really read every EULA or TOS they see from the first line to the last?

all of them have legaleese that require you to resolve issues via arbitration, all of them say you dont own the software the company does and your merely licensing it.

most of them dont have the word "own" unless its in the phrase "you do not own..."

[mrcash2009 0]

So if its elsewhere too & steam its all good? Would be nice if but one of them didnt have that to be honest. Multiple wrongs dont make a right.

[marcai 1]

Wake up people, get out of bed already.

I feel sorry for this new generation.

"Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It"

"Wake up people", possibly one of the most pretentious and asinine statements that can be uttered via these glorious internets. If you'd said "sheeple" as well, I might have actually melted my keyboard with the fury of my response. If you want to pretend that your vast knowledge of the world and its secret inner workings are so superior to everyone else's, that's your business; don't insult everyone else you're talking to by spewing it forth on an online forum.

As for the rest of the post, I've now ran Steam in the background of my computer non-stop for... six years? I used to dislike it back when I only had 2gig of RAM and 100mgb usage was an issue, but I'm no longer a 15 year old who can't afford to get a £30 upgrade for my computer, which is really all it takes for it to be negligible to performance. I held a grudge against it simply because I didn't use it and others did, because that's what you do when you're an angsty teen. When I used it, it was grudging at first, and now it's just a part of playing games on my computer because of how damned convenient it is.

You know what's actually really cool about Steam, from a totally unbiased point of view? Opening my games is *exactly* the same as if they were just in my folders, with no downside. My games auto-update, I can chat to friends through it, I can get mods for certain games, and invite friends to my multiplayer lobbies. My games are all in a library, I can set them to auto-update (or not, if I chose) and I get occasional news about the series and what its producers are up to. On top of this, BI get to advertise their product to literal millions of gamers on a daily basis, which is good for their business.

The downside? Apparently it's.. inconvenient to you.. somehow? I honestly just point and click "Play". There's no nine-hour legal battle to go through to access my games. I don't actually recall any hassle at all, barring clicking "I agree" to a legal statement. They're all on my hard drive and don't even require Steam to be online to access, so the inconvenience argument doesn't really hold up.

Other than that, the argument against Steam sounds a lot like this:

I honestly have no idea why people are so defensive and paranoid about this. I don't even know why this thread has close to 50 pages when it doesn't matter- the game is on Steam. If you own it, you have Steam installed and can see for yourself that it's a total non-issue, unless (as stated before) you own a troglodyte computer with 1gig RAMand believe that Steam Updates will herald the mother of all viruses. Spoilers: they don't.

Now forgive me, I'm now going to go and continue being a sleeping slave to media giants and corporations. And have a cup of tea.

[nettrucker 142]

Just to pour some more gasoline into the fire

All versions are through steam. All the Arma3 website does, is allow you to purchase the supporters edition that is not available through steam.

You should be careful not to buy the normal version of the game from the arma3 website, as I have seen a few posts where steam got huffy about this, and banned the account of the buyer for "attempting to get the game cheaper than its available through steam store". No kidding, cant remember where I read that thread, but there are a few out there.

That reply I did dig up in the Arma 3 General discussions. Asked if he could dig up these posts and provide a link. I would be very interested in reading about it. Nice.

Cheers

Edited June 18, 2013 by nettrucker

[tonygrunt 10]

Just to pur some more gasoline into the fire

That reply I did dig up in the Arma 3 General discussions. Asked if he could dig up these posts and provide a link. I would be very interested in reading about it. Nice.

Cheers

The quoted post looks like FUD and doesn't even make sense. Here is another one:

I heard they take your first born son as collateral if you do a chargeback. No kidding, cant remember where I read that thread, but there are a few out there. :)

[chortles 263]

It's a curious as hell claim, especially since the BI Store has almost always been selling the game at the same price as the Steam Storefront, but I recall that on release day -- aka "when the BI Store was down for so long" -- the prices actually varied multiple times throughout the course of the moments of uptime, and to my knowledge I'm not aware of anyone who was banned over buying a Steam key during that time...

I can also note that I've never heard of "attempting to get the game cheaper than its available through steam store" as a bannable offense, since to no small extent that would fly in the face of the "buy anywhere, activate on Steamworks" selling point behind Steamworks integration (and be laughably ignorant of the fact that other sellers can and will do discount sales without letting Valve know in advance)... though attempting to circumvent regional pricing is a different story.

[tonygrunt 10]

It's a curious as hell claim, especially since the BI Store has almost always been selling the game at the same price as the Steam Storefront, but I recall that on release day -- aka "when the BI Store was down for so long" -- the prices actually varied multiple times throughout the course of the moments of uptime, and to my knowledge I'm not aware of anyone who was banned over buying a Steam key during that time...

I can also note that I've never heard of "attempting to get the game cheaper than its available through steam store" as a bannable offense, since to no small extent that would fly in the face of the "buy anywhere, activate on Steamworks" selling point behind Steamworks integration (and be laughably ignorant of the fact that other sellers can and will do discount sales without letting Valve know in advance)... though attempting to circumvent regional pricing is a different story.

And that's why it is FUD. From the start of 2013 till now I have bought 105 games on sale from other retailers and activated in steam without any problem and somehow only ArmA 3 from BI store results in a banned steam account for some, because they claim the game was cheaper (which isn't, same prices in euro/dollars for both stores). Doesn't make any sense.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

And that's why it is FUD. From the start of 2013 till now I have bought 105 games on sale from other retailers and activated in steam without any problem and somehow only ArmA 3 from BI store results in a banned steam account for some, because they claim the game was cheaper (which isn't, same prices in euro/dollars for both stores). Doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make any sense because there is no sane or rational logic behind it. This is what I was talking about when I said how much uninformed and unconfirmed shit gets tossed at Steam around here.

BI store gives you the key, you give the key to Steam. Unless Steam can magically look at what you paid for that key, that can't happen. Either way, as you say, according to that insane logic, like you, I should have been banned 125 times for all the games I've reclaimed from getting them via Humble Bundles and Green Man Gaming. Let's not talk about physical Steam bound games that might be sold for whatever prices in stores.

[chortles 263]

Re: "physical Steam bound games that might be sold for whatever prices in stores": that's more or less exactly what I mean by "other sellers" who won't necessarily coordinate pricing with Valve beforehand. And this is all to say nothing of gifts... I was once gifted Humble Indie Bundle 4's bonus games (namely, all five Humble Indie Bundle 3 games except for its bonus game Steel Storm) at the price of... a promise to play them for at least a half hour. :D In fact, all five games were delivered in the form of a single Steam key that added all five, and the combined activation is in my Steam account history as "Humble Indie Bundle 4 Extra Bonus".

Disclosure: I also preordered XCOM: Enemy Unknown through Green Man Gaming specifically because a promotion at the time made it cheaper to do so through GMG than through the Steam Storefront.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Re: "physical Steam bound games that might be sold for whatever prices in stores": that's more or less exactly what I mean by "other sellers" who won't necessarily coordinate pricing with Valve beforehand.

Yeah, it would be insane. Can you imagine the hassle to Valve themselves trying to enforce and coordinate same pricing everywhere and then punishing the users because some distributor decided to go rogue as the chrispottsov1987's quote claims?

But there is a different side to this, the games on Steam that end up costing the same as their physical counterpart in the big-name retailers is due to the pressure of those retailers that have gotten so much pull on publishers/developers that they can go "Yeah bros, we won't stock your game if it's cheaper on Steam".

And as you say, trying to circumvent Steams own regional pricing is what can get you in trouble. Unrelated to this I know a guy that got banned from Steam with all of his 20-ish games. And guess what. He was abusing stolen credit cards to buy those.

Edit:

Found this as a possible reference to what the chrispottsov1987 was saying:

Hi, I brought arma3 from Bohemia store, but Steam disabled my account, so I can't play anymore, any solution?

Don't ask me why steam block my account, because I brought some games doesn't belong to my region.

He admits he got his account banned because he abused Steams regional pricing for some other games in the first post, then he quotes Steam support saying exactly that. Nothing to do with BI Store, except that one of the games he had in his library came from the BI Store and he'd like BI to give him another key or something because he fucked up and got banned. But what happens in that thread? People fail to read and boo-fucking-hoo Steam is to blame.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Sniperwolf572

[mrcash2009 0]

I haven't exactly posted batting for steam completely, but even I cant see how that can happen, just based on the logistics of it.

EDIT: Ah I see, it was "half the story" :)

[Sniperwolf572 758]

I haven't exactly posted batting for steam completely, but even I cant see how that can happen, just based on the logistics of it.

EDIT: Ah I see, it was "half the story" :)

Yep, the half that usually gets told when one doesn't want to admit their own wrongdoing, but instead shift the blame to the "Big bad".

It's what usually happens around here as well when people get banned. Big bad moderators restricting freedom of speech, I'm gonna call my lawyer to get me unbanned and whatnot. :p

The OP of the thread I linked actually didn't quite do this, as he did admit to fucking up, but apparently thought that he might be entitled to another key from BI. I'm just baffled how everyone there ignored the very obvious reason for his account getting disabled. The circumventing of regional prices on Steam isn't something you can accidentally do.

Either way, once again, getting games cheaper than listed with non-TOS-breaking means will never get you banned, as you can tell by Chortles' and my experience. If that was the case, I should be banned for 80% of my 250 games I own on Steam because I either got them for Humble Bundle's "Pay more than average" price (usually around $8), over insane discounts on GMG (i.e. around 20€ for Skyrim/Deus Ex close to launch), got them gifted by people digitally and physically, got a few keys off Reddit and various giveaways. People who I've gifted Steam games to have yet to be banned too. While I never used "super cheap cd-key sellers", I'm aware people who do, and guess what, they haven't been banned either.

Only "restrictive" thing I ever ran into is being blocked for a few hours from trying to redeem keys after I've entered around 50 of already redeemed keys in a very short time from a list of keys that someone was giving away on Reddit.

That's why I find it really hard to believe that you will get banned for no legitimate reason.

[chortles 263]

The main reason for suspicion is that if Valve really did hold tightly to maximizing per-unit revenue to treat "getting it anywhere else for less" as a bannable offense, then there's no reason for Valve to allow anyone else but their own Steam Storefront to sell Steam products in the first place!

I would also add that at least twice Valve outright gave away Portal for free: if you merely logged in and then "pushed the big red button", a Web page with an image link consisting of said big red button... you'd have Portal added to your Steam Library.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Per-unit revenue seems to be a foreign concept for Valve, just like number 3 is. Constant discounts, multiple annual thematic sales, 4-packs that cut down the per-unit price by a large margin, bundles which are considerably cheaper than sums of their parts, etc. They seem to prefer to sell more for less than less for more. I'm pretty convinced if the pressure from the "big fish" physical distributors and their ultimatums, we'd get cheaper games overall.

[orcinus 121]

To start, I should say that I have never used Steam as I prefer to have boxed copies of all software. I do not "hate" Steam, I simply have no experience of it nor, prior to moving from a house with an ADSL connection in 2008 to my present home, never felt a need to use Steam. I do not own many games; most FPS simply bore the hell out of me - flashy grpahics and crap gameplay.

I would love to have been helping to test first the alpha & now the beta, but in economic terms alone Steam is not an option. Like the majority of the world's population, I am limited to mobile BB (>2km of mostly 1930's overhead copper to the nearest junction box; ADSL2+ test speed ~45 kbps). I use most of my 3GB/month for work & general stuff including ArmA. Overuse b/w costs GBP 15 per GB plus VAT (some other providers charge up to GBP 0.2 per MB - GBP 200 per GB).

Downloading a 7 GB beta would cost me around GBP 100; the full game, projected to be >20 GB, would cost me > GBP 300 for b/w in addition to the cost of the game. And then there is the issue of patches. In such circumstances, no-one in their right mind would give control of bandwidth use to Steam.

I shall buy the full game solely if the eventual (?) DVD release requires only activation via Steam, and only activation. If patches are going to be released via Steam alone, with Steam controlling the timing and requiring a direct download & install - which AFAICT from other posts in this thread will be the case - I shall not buy the game.

I can understand why developers/publishers see Steam as attractive, & BIS has posted its own reasons. However, Steam distribution excludes the overwhelming majority of the global population; and a potentially huge market is being completely ignored. I confidently predict that there are millions of potential customers who will not be buying A3 for the same reasons as mine.

Why am I confident of that? I am a consultant/analyst in telecoms & digital media; I have been doing this for over a decade initially for a global consultancy and for the last few years as an independent.

Mobile BB subs exceeded fixed in developed markets in 2008, and in developing markets early last year. Mobile BB growth is accelerating, especially due to the roll-out ofLTE, while fixed is mostly flat. In many developing markets, especially in large countries with a predominantly rural population, fixed BB growth is zero outside the main population centres.

There are lots of PC users (albeit most MBB subscribers have tablets/smartphones) whose access is solely via mobile BB. In APAC for example, >30% of households have computers, and while fixed BB is growing penetration is still only < 8%. MBB penetration, however, is approaching 90%; an order of magnitude higher. The proportion of people in the 15-30 age group varies somewhat between countries, but it is significantly higher than in the EU or N. America - around 50% in some countries. From my own travels in that region (TH, VN, MY, KH, LA, SG), young people there are as keen on gaming as in the West, even in those rural areas where there is no fixed BB whatsoever.

There are excellent stats available from the ITU, UNESCAP, WHO, etc., on ICT, demographics, and economic factors. Games publishers (amongst many other content producers/distributors) do not give the impression that they have ever looked at the statistics, and thought about the present - and especially, the future - implications. Mobile-only BB users are regarded by all too many Western content producers (and I have discussed this with some of the largest) as a niche market - very wrong.

While LTE will result in many millions of potential new online gamers, b/w charges will preclude the use of systems such as Steam. Digital downloads might be made via Internet cafes, etc., for installation on home PCs when DVDs are unavailable, but not if patches and other large files like required mods are only available via Steam for installation direct to the user's PC. Cost issues are even more prohibitive in developing markets; median incomes are so much lower.

Games that are only released via Steam will fail to sell to this increasingly large segment, and not only in poorer countries. For example, many young people in Ireland use only mobile for voice & data (poor roll-out of xDSL by the failing incumbent Eircom, difficulty in getting bank accounts and especially credit or debit cards, etc.). This is true even in Dublin, which has the highest xDSL penetration in the country, and was so even before the bankers screwed us all in 2008. And the roll-out of fixed BB to rural areas of the UK is abysmally slow - grrr!

Sadly, it looks like I shall not be buying A3 for the foreseeable future. I shall be moving to SEA in 1-2 years but even the country, let alone the location, isn't decided yet. It seems that only if I can get a decent fixed BB shall I ever be able to buy A3.