Steam discussion

[mrcash2009 0]

you do realize they want to keep the PC open?

recent Valve talks about Linux and effort to make debugger worthy for developers got reason

while Windows, Android and similar are actually slowly turning into closed ecosystems ?

Its taken Steam for people to realise these things?

[Dwarden 1125]

unknown, time will tell ... in worst case nothing really change ;)

[down8 30]

you do realize they want to keep the PC open?

recent Valve talks about Linux and effort to make debugger worthy for developers got reason

while Windows, Android and similar are actually slowly turning into closed ecosystems ?

the shattered DirectX

Vista DX10.x need manual update to DX11.0,

Seven has only 11.0 because the 11.1 manual update is not true 11.1

W8 needs manual update to W8.1 to get DX11.2

was this cleverly orchestrated mess for desktop PC? while the XB1 console has , shockingly 11.2 out of box ...

as i can clearly remember the way too similar story about mess when XBOX360 was about to happen ...

and ... i do remember old XBOX too ;)

don't get me started about the 'apps stores' and limitations and rules enforced upon developers and even users ...

Interesting to have an informed developer perspective.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Holy centralised domination batman, letting this company move into hardware and the TV O/S arena as well as own all your game data. Wolves in sheep's clothing like the rest.

As much as I don't see myself using SteamOS past checking it out due to reasons I mentioned before, I have to agree with Dwarden here.

As if Microsoft "centralized domination" isn't what we're already at? :j:

Windows as the only real way to play majority of games, DirectX being used as a carrot to drive users to buy their newest OS, Xbox as the dominant living room media center with an always on camera, with this happening as we type and you have no problem with it. But you have a problem with another company taking a shot at making a free, built upon open source code (and potentially in large part open-source itself) OS with gaming focus with which you can build your own living room media center with whatever components you'd like, helping Linux gain more traction outside the niche groups and possibly breaking Microsofts monopoly on PC gaming?

Its taken Steam for people to realise these things?

No, but nobody with enough pull has ever taken an interest or made any effort in making an assault on the fortress that is Windows.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Sniperwolf572

[Dwarden 1125]

majority of 'significant' investments to linux in past were aimed on kernel, server related usage ...

not end-user usability or relevance ...

if Valve can deliver something what just works for Linux games

and as pure bonus it also runs my Windows games by single click w/o using Windows ... (or even Android ones)

then things start get quite interesting ;)

[mrcash2009 0]

As if Microsoft "centralized domination" isn't what we're already at?

The go to argument on any of this, what's to say a follow up will be any better going by the model of steam centralisation?

No, but nobody with enough pull has ever taken an interest or made any effort in making an assault on the fortress that is Windows.

So this is a battle on Windows now? I see it (my view) as a stepping stone in pulling in the PC users and talking their language in order to funnel them into another controlled environment, "Steam inside" so to speak, im all for bucking the trend and open source, but will this simply be a mirror of the same under a nicer more palatable badge? I just look at the steam/gaming model as an example. Platforms (them & us) to me are like political parties, all merge at the top. An information technologists playground.

[krycek 349]

MS aren't organized,they haven't been at least for a couple of years.The mess with Win 7&8 Phone,the Surface tablets,the 3 years OS policy and the Dx mess just shows that at this point they don't know wtf they're doing.The Win fortress is full of holes.Not even their Xbox division knows what it's doing,they took a beating with that lil' orwellian machine and wanted to please the tv networks instead of console gamers.Instead they got a shitstorm so big that even with the redesigned Xbone they might not recover fully.They still have more money than sense but it doesn't mean they have any sort of direction.

If the Steam OS would play win games I say go for it.Until I see it myself I can't say I would adopt it right away,but it's about time for some serious competition to Win platform.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

The go to argument on any of this, what's to say a follow up will be any better going by the model of steam centralisation?

Well, the situation currently as it stands is that you have one serious "go to" OS if you want to play on the PC, which is Windows. Which became so because of no or inadequate competition.

When SteamOS arrives, you will have potentially serious competition for Windows in the OS space which will either breed better products by both parties, or SteamOS will take over what Windows was. One of those is an improvement, the other is basically nothing changing. There is no going worse, because it's at the rock bottom already.

So this is a battle on Windows now? I see it (my view) as a stepping stone in pulling in the PC users and talking their language in order to funnel them into another controlled environment, "Steam inside" so to speak, im all for bucking the trend and open source, but will this simply be a mirror of the same under a nicer more palatable badge? I just look at the steam/gaming model as an example. Platforms (them & us) to me are like political parties, all merge at the top. An information technologists playground.

It's the dawn of a battle for the PC and continuation of the one going on for the TV, which currently is owned by Microsoft with Windows and Xbox mainly. At least in the US. There's PS4 and Wii as well competing for the TV. Google and Apple are itching to take over the TV too.

You are currently locked in for PC gaming, as I said above, there is no going "worse", you are going to get competition and alternative to Windows. It can either be better than Windows, which means switch is logical, it can be same as Windows, which means you can switch or stay if you don't like the alternative, or it can be worse than Windows, which means things stay the same.

To put it simply, if you were a prisoner, you currently have no choice but a barren prison cell with a scrappy bed and a toilet. Another company now is making another prison cell and you will get a choice if you wish to stay in your current one, or switch to the alternative. The alternative can turn out to be the same cell, cell with a toilet but no bed, or a luxury carpeted cell with electronics and air conditioning. If your alternatives are all cells, you pick the one that provides you with the most benefits. Simple as.

To put some perspective into this, here's a real world example.

Up until mid-2010 in Bosnia there was only one relevant "big" ISP, covering 90% of the country. The other few of the ISP's either had only very tiny coverage or bad service. They dictated the prices and provided minimal reasonable service for a premium. They decided what goes and how much it costs. Shit was expensive and abysmal compared to the rest of the world.

Come mid-2010, some foreign investors have bought out a few tiny ISP's and united them under one ISP, to compete with the big one. They had an awesome price and service but they only covered the capital city. The lines to get a connection from the new guys were insane. The big ISP reacted, but not much because the rest of the country still made up for all the losses they suffered in the capital.

Eventually the new guys started expanding the infrastructure across the country and taking customers for the big ISP to notice. Today, they compete, their prices almost match and are a fraction of what they were before and the service we get is amazing, similar to the rest of the world, if not better. It was all a result of some competition. Same thing is happening here.

[Colossus 2]

And as predicted Valve announce Steam Machines. The third announcements has to be Half-Life 3 or something similar.

[chortles 263]

An interesting perspective on the subject from Forbes:

The concept of a ‘console war’ is quickly becoming archaic. What we’re seeing now is more of a war for the living room, with devices ranging from our mobile phones to next-gen video game consoles, to the PC and beyond.

Combatants in this war aren’t working on one single device, either. Each player is attempting to create a living room ecosystem of connectivity and monetization. So it’s important to think of this as a war of cross-device platforms.

You can see how this war of ecosystems is playing out by taking in the full scope of Sony’s upcoming devices, the PS4 and the PS Vita TV and the way all their gadgets connect with one another; not to mention the fact that Sony essentially wants PlayStation on all their devices in the future.

Likewise, the cast of characters is more diverse than ever before. It’s not simply Microsoft MSFT +0.45% and Sony SNE -0.89% and Nintendo —it’s also nVidia, Samsung, Apple AAPL -1.1%, and any number of smaller players, like the Kickstarted Ouya, trying to get a foothold in the market. These players want you to fashion your entire entertainment ecosystem out of their products, from phones to set-top boxes, to tablets, to who knows what else.

Now Valve, the developer of Half-Life 2, Portal, and Left for Dead, and the company behind the wildly successful Steam platform, is entering this space, first with the advent of Big Picture Mode and now with SteamOS.

The question is: can a console-style PC make a dent in the ongoing war for couch domination?

It's no secret as well that frankly, the "low low price of free" factor is relevant too, especially depending on what else it can do besides gaming (such as "music, TV, movies" through media services as advertised on the SteamOS page)...

[Sniperwolf572 758]

My open source suspicion is now confirmed. Looks like they're being pretty transparent about the whole deal.

Will beta testers be allowed to share info about their experience and post pictures and opinions online?

Yes, that really is the whole point. The input from testers should come in many forms: bug reports, forum posts, concept art, 3D prints, haikus, and also very publicly stated opinions.

Will I be able to build my own box to run SteamOS?

Yes.

Can I hack this box? Run another OS? Change the hardware? Install my own software? Use it to build a robot?

Sure.

Can I download the OS to try it out?

You will be able to download it (including the source code, if you're into that) but not yet.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Sniperwolf572

[Smurf 12]

Now this: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/09/26/amd-announce-mantle-a-direct-access-graphics-api-that-will-debut-in-battlefield-4/?utm_source=tw&utm_medium=emp&utm_campaign=uk

And these slides: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=686393

It's a game changer?

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Now this: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/09/26/amd-announce-mantle-a-direct-access-graphics-api-that-will-debut-in-battlefield-4/?utm_source=tw&utm_medium=emp&utm_campaign=uk

And these slides: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=686393

It's a game changer?

It's interesting if anything. It seems like a clusterfuck for the developers and customers if all players don't play nice. We're delving into gaming becoming the political lobbying territory this year it seems.

If the developers only build applications with Mantle, and nothing besides AMD GPU's uses it, the developers will limit themselves to the AMD crowd.

If the devs want to cover all consumers, they'll have to do DirectX (Windows), OpenGL (Linux, SteamOS if it gains traction), Mantle implementations so more work for them.

If AMD makes it open so everyone can contribute, nVidia might make use of it, but that would mean they'd have to put down the war axes which seems unlikely.

If nVidia decides to make their own thing, clusterfuck for the consumers and developers again.

There's also considerations regarding performance, compatibility, drivers, etc. but continuing this would warrant it's own thread in my opinion.

[Smurf 12]

Well any change of this magnitude will cause some clusterfuck, so better sooner than later. Mantle appears to be open so nvidia will be able to put its cents on it. Wouldn't make much sense to keep this locked to a brand because it wouldn't use its full potential (spending time coding for different things).

And as this Mantle thing will be patched into BF4 still this year, it is Windows compatible and doesn't seems to need any other type of change.

Exciting times! Will wait and see... Can't do anything else anyway :P

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Well any change of this magnitude will cause some clusterfuck, so better sooner than later. Mantle appears to be open so nvidia will be able to put its cents on it. Wouldn't make much sense to keep this locked to a brand because it wouldn't use its full potential (spending time coding for different things).

And as this Mantle thing will be patched into BF4 still this year, it is Windows compatible and doesn't seems to need any other type of change.

Exciting times! Will wait and see... Can't do anything else anyway :P

It needs to be supported by the drivers and cards. It's platform independent from what I can tell. Currently, you'd only be able to use it in BF4 if you have an AMD card and only if that AMD card has the GNC architecture.

The problem with nVidia will be, even if it is open, how will nVidia react to supporting their only competitors solutions. I really can't see nVidia having advertisements such as "nVidia GTX 999, supports AMD Mantle!".

[Smurf 12]

Someone had to do it; Nothing better than one of the two major GPU companies out there to do it. AMD now has the foot on PS4 and Xbone so make sense to go "full circle" and create a solution that also servers the PCs => Devs and users have something to gain here. nVidia is better to join this efforts or things will get bad both for them and users (less competition).

Drivers and cards, sure, matter of time just like the Dx 9-11 transition.

All I know is that is good to have some movement on this front after decades of same things.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Someone had to do it; Nothing better than one of the two major GPU companies out there to do it. AMD now has the foot on PS4 and Xbone so make sense to go "full circle" and create a solution that also servers the PCs => Devs and users have something to gain here. nVidia is better to join this efforts or things will get bad both for them and users (less competition).

Drivers and cards, sure, matter of time just like the Dx 9-11 transition.

All I know is that is good to have some movement on this front after decades of same things.

Agreed, I'm just saying that corporate politics are most likely mess this up for everyone involved instead of it working out for everyones benefit. AMD making it open might be an olive branch.

[gammadust 12]

Engineers from Valve and NVIDIA have spent a lot of time collaborating on a common goal for SteamOS: to deliver an open-platform gaming experience with superior performance and uncompromising visuals directly on the big screen.

NVIDIA engineers embedded at Valve collaborated on improving driver performance for OpenGL; optimizing performance on NVIDIA GPUs; and helping to port Valve’s award-winning content library to SteamOS; and tuning SteamOS to lower latency, or lag, between the controller and onscreen action.

this blog, via RockPaperShotgun

I don't really think AMD's Mantle is related. If indeed purports to serve an alternative to DirectX, there is OpenGL to consider still, which is already used for Mac compatible Steam titles. I don't think OpenGL is to be let go anytime soon, and rightly so imo. I would prefer seeing AMD and NVIDIA joining Steam's efforts to dethrone the exclusivity of DirectX.

Edit: i also think of how steep would be the learning curve of the new API. For how long is Frostbite engine being adjusted to support it from next december?

Edited September 26, 2013 by gammadust

[Colossus 2]

Now to finish the circle with a Steam Controller - http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamController/

Sorry, no Half-Life 3 this time. :)

[chortles 263]

First guy who I showed the controller concept off to was really positively intrigued despite not being a stereotypical PC gamer, that's a positive sign right off the gate for Valve...

[mrcash2009 0]

First guy who I showed the controller concept off to was really positively intrigued despite not being a stereotypical PC gamer, that's a positive sign right off the gate for Valve...

It might not be from how I see it.

As I say and I hate to be opposite for the sake of it (seems cool, but ...), console mindset for PC crowed is the trojan in this utopia. I just hope that this "open" aspect stays that way, but something tells me later down the line this may not stay this way once people flock or they get more market share and dominance.

[Smurf 12]

I barely saw it and already want one!

[aoshi 1]

Why the workshop just don't save in the scenarios, I was unable to play the scenarios because my internet don't worked...

also every time we have to wait that list load...

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Well, that's an unexpected controller design, reviews on it are going to be interesting to read. Doubt I'll ever get to try it out myself.

[chortles 263]

According to Kotaku, some companies have already had a try, with Ichiro Lambe being quoted on his reported experience with using it for a FPS.