Steam discussion

[Sealife 22]

No I don't. I doubt they will do that since Steam versions of A2 and TKOH are not built with Steam as a primary distribution platform.

It would only add more complexity/headaches for the devs that maintain those products, which at this point, probably isn't more than a few people, making the release channels even more messy than they are right now. Additionally they'd still have all other versions to deal with anyway so there would be no real benefit.

Good points , I hope they stick with Steam or similar going forward , I have to be honest and say my TKOH and A2 are not upto date because of the chasing patches , much prefer the Auto system .

[dmarkwick 261]

Why is it a different story?

Because. Upon release, it's no longer a development build it's a product. People still buy games in shops, and people will still not like Steam for whatever reason. I don't know the economics of looking after 3 distribution methods over one vs the benefit of hoovering up the players who will use these other methods, but I do believe it's a consideration for final release not development release.

I do acknowledge the difficulty of preparing patches for Steam vs patches for non-Steam. In my experience Steam patches seem to be more frequent (presumably because of a rather nifty development pipeline there) and the risk of having a two-tier gaming community (up-to-date Steam users vs weeks-delayed non-Steam users) is also to be considered.

[mrcash2009 0]

I also remember (in regards to Arma2 and the "nightmare" prior to steam) ... wasn't it steam users who had the "nightmare" with Arma2/OA for patch delays? I realise this is a differnt case that 3's direct usage, but it still shows that the nightmare was not so much at such a time, and was the other way around. This can also be put down to BI's approach at that time, but still shows that things were not always such a nightmare as its explained, just a nightmare if you simply compare it now with the key steam all-in trade off.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

I also remember (in regards to Arma2 and the "nightmare" prior to steam) ... wasn't it steam users who had the "nightmare" with Arma2/OA for patch delays? I realise this is a differnt case that 3's direct usage, but it still shows that the nightmare was not so much at such a time, and was the other way around. This can also be put down to BI's approach at that time, but still shows that things were not always such a nightmare as its explained, just a nightmare if you simply compare it now with the key steam all-in trade off.

My A2 and OA have been from Steam due to the fact that it was nowhere to be found here at the release, so I'll explain that a bit.

I'm assuming the delays were due to the multiple publishers and multiple copy protection methods used, which is one of the core reasons they opted for a single distribution method.

Other issues besides that were generally due to BI's own mishandling of the release itself (A2/OA/CO combining) and there were a few cases of Arma 2 being redownloaded completely because of at-the-time Steams retarded method of patching which was replaced ages ago by delta-patching. You'll also read on these forums that you couldn't use addons, there were problems with them, but that was never the case, they were always working perfectly.

At some point BI removed the copy protection from all releases so technically all versions ended up the same and if you opted out of Steam patches for the game, you could use the full patches that everyone else got.

[mrcash2009 0]

Thanks, I remember some of the issues but couldn't remember all about it.

But that does raise a point I mentioned before ref BI's handling, in terms of everyone's nightmare prior to steam, and that was (no offence BI just making the point) ... that we were at the mercy of BI's methods prior, and that gets used allot as full justifications of steam fixed now, I mentioned before when replying to DM that they could have done it better in which case things may have been different.

At some point BI removed the copy protection from all releases so technically all versions ended up the same and if you opted out of Steam patches for the game, you could use the full patches that everyone else got.

Here's hoping for round 3 as a "backup" mirror precaution (remember those days of backup logic) :)

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Thanks, I remember some of the issues but couldn't remember all about it.

But that does raise a point I mentioned before ref BI's handling, in terms of everyone's nightmare prior to steam, and that was (no offence BI just making the point) ... that we were at the mercy of BI's methods prior, and that gets used allot as full justifications of steam fixed now, I mentioned before when replying to DM that they could have done it better in which case things may have been different.

What I meant was Steam specific BI handling, the rest of it probably couldn't have be done any better. It's not a case of "If BI did things better, we wouldn't be forced to use Steam" which I'm assuming you mean by "in which case things may have been different". You can't have 10 different publishers for 10 different regions with 10 different requirements and expect for everything to go smoothly. Hence Steam, 1 "authoritative" delivery method, DRM and then the region specific publishers can take a snapshot and release the game with whatever kinda packaging and bow they want on the box.

What I'm saying is that Steam specific handling of the title when OA was released wasn't exactly stellar. BI went headfirst with the attitude that to have complete Combined Ops experience, you'd just install OA into your A2 directory and everything was fine, which is great. They seemed forgot about Steam and that you can't combine them as such so there were various workarounds until a few weeks later they made it work without having to do crazy command-line-fu.

The only really bad thing they really did in general is inventing a new name for every single package you could get the game as (Combined Ops, Reinforcements, Complete Collection, Anniversary Edition), which resulted in a ton of people being confused.

Here's hoping for round 3 as a "backup" mirror precaution (remember those days of backup logic) :)

Don't expect them to decouple it from Steam unless armageddon happens, as we've seen on the Beta stream, some integration with Steam specific features is going to happen so making another version without those features would just mean going back to the old clusterfuck.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Sniperwolf572

[mrcash2009 0]

"If BI did things better, we wouldn't be forced to use Steam"

Not really what i meant ...

I mentioned before when replying to DM that they could have done it better in which case things may have been different.

:)

Don't expect them to decouple it from Steam unless armageddon happens, as we've seen on the Beta stream, some integration with Steam specific features is going to happen so making another version without those features would just mean going back to the old clusterfuck.

For the sake of all going on this steam journey I just hope they have a backup and exit strategy, 100 percent isn't in my trust logs :) maybe no armageddon (was that a pun BTW :) ) .. but a centralised dominant single source can have its own mega clusterfuck more than a fragmented one, the trust in steam is strong, I hope that it works both ways.

[marcai 1]

...Are people still complaining that they need a tiny, free-to-use program which auto-updates your game and only takes about 100mgb of RAM whilst active? Also Steamworks integration and advertising the product to a wider audience. Ooh the evils of Steam, eh? How BIS has sold out and forsaken us...

[krycek 349]

The "patching is difficult without Steam" is really a pitiful excuse and I hear it very often.Most patches for non-Steam games these days are cumulative and easy to find.You simply google X,Y game patch(or update) and the big G will show you the latest version for that game.If that is difficult and time-consuming I assume consoles will be a better setup for those people.

True there are a few exceptions where I prefer the Steam version of some games because frankly the devs were friggin' insane and very lazy with the patching process.

For example Company Of Heroes and WH40k Dawn of War 1 where you had to do this to have an up-to-date game.http://cohpatch.relic.com/

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

...Are people still complaining that they need a tiny, free-to-use program which auto-updates your game and only takes about 100mgb of RAM whilst active? Also Steamworks integration and advertising the product to a wider audience. Ooh the evils of Steam, eh? How BIS has sold out and forsaken us...

Yes they are still complaining but will not give a convincing reason why. Also anyone seen the new 'publish to Steam Workshop' button in the beta mission editor? - excellent new feature!

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/

About - The Workshop

Ever dreamed of seeing your brilliant ideas come to life in games played by millions of people? Now you can, with the Steam Workshop. Here you can submit, find, rate, and download new content and modifications for your favorite Steam games.

Different games may use the Steam Workshop in different ways, but everything here is created by members of the Steam community, just like you.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[Mr. Charles 22]

The "patching is difficult without Steam" is really a pitiful excuse and I hear it very often.Most patches for non-Steam games these days are cumulative and easy to find.You simply google X,Y game patch(or update) and the big G will show you the latest version for that game.If that is difficult and time-consuming I assume consoles will be a better setup for those people.

True there are a few exceptions where I prefer the Steam version of some games because frankly the devs were friggin' insane and very lazy with the patching process.

Have you ever installed A2 and OA 1.00-1.61 and with all DLCs?

[nettrucker 142]

Have you ever installed A2 and OA 1.00-1.61 and with all DLCs?

Yes very recently. No problems with that. I believe every old timer here on the forums did it a couple of times at least. If the IQ dropped to the center of earth and people are unable to cope with such an easy task maybe they shouldn't play PC games in a first place.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Can't wait to see the nextsupergen games with build-in "auto-buy" Steam features incl. some seasonal/special subscriptions (based on collected data about your likes + stats).... Don't think - just play! :D

[Mr. Charles 22]

Yes very recently. No problems with that. I believe every old timer here on the forums did it a couple of times at least. If the IQ dropped to the center of earth and people are unable to cope with such an easy task maybe they shouldn't play PC games in a first place.

No Problems?

Install ArmA2 1.00->Find scratched OA DVD->2 day email support via BIS->Get Download link for OA->try to install OA, error about missing data->install ArmA2 1.05 first, then 1.09-> install OA->Download and install BAF&PMC-> Download 1.60->download 1.62->install ACR

[nettrucker 142]

No Problems?

Install ArmA2 1.00->Find scratched OA DVD->2 day email support via BIS->Get Download link for OA->try to install OA, error about missing data->install ArmA2 1.05 first, then 1.09-> install OA->Download and install BAF&PMC-> Download 1.60->download 1.62->install ACR

Yes no problems took the DVD's from my shelf. Installed them and patched. This isn't rocket science. If your DVd's are scratched that means only that you don't take care of your stuff. I still got my original CWC DVD and I installed it without problems just a few weeks ago. In any case it doesn't matter.

cheers

[mrcash2009 0]

I do find it funny how all of a sudden everything prior was the biggest struggle and nightmare known to the Armaverse :)

To me this streamlined steam V "the nightmare" is a bit like PC v console debates, one is more controlled with far more limits and the other is more open, and yet now its all steam with no choice people are calling for the "console" aspect of the debate, simple and easy and spoon-fed has its controlled limits, so careful what you wish for :) At least you can externally own your patches and CD's to get annoyed with while installing, you might start to reminisce a little about that in time to come.

...Are people still complaining that they need a tiny, free-to-use program which auto-updates your game and only takes about 100mgb of RAM whilst active? Also Steamworks integration and advertising the product to a wider audience. Ooh the evils of Steam, eh? How BIS has sold out and forsaken us...

Are people still not reading fully each page to follow the conversations? :)

Edited June 3, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Sniperwolf572 758]

I do find it funny how all of a sudden everything prior was the biggest struggle and nightmare known to the Armaverse :)

To me this streamlined steam V "the nightmare" is a bit like PC v console debates, one is more controlled with far more limits and the other is more open, and yet now its all steam with no choice people are calling for the "console" aspect of the debate, simple and easy and spoon-fed has its controlled limits, so careful what you wish for :) At least you can externally own your patches and CD's to get annoyed with while installing, you might start to reminisce a little about that in time to come.

Folks didn't have a problem with "everything" before and it still would be a non issue in case Steam wasn't involved this time around. You have to see that the convenience that was the deciding factor here isn't for you or me, it's for BI. The added convenience (or inconvenience, depending on your Steam opinion) just comes along with their decision to use Steam to solve their own problems.

You can also reminisce about having 15 floppy disks to install a game back in the day, but it doesn't change the fact that it was inconvenient and now archaic that you have discs (which I haven't used in ages) and USB drives. If I want to back up any of my games, originated from a DVD or Steam, we've come to a point where I can literally plop them on my phones Micro SD card or keychain.

There's also the fact that N64 popularity was a sliver of PSOne's due to stubborn choice to use the outdated media for the console.

Equating Steam to consoles is a bad argument.

- Steam doesn't charge for or controls the patches

- It doesn't restrict mods

- It doesn't make every PC equal in specs

- It doesn't strip any potential from any game due to fixed specs

- It doesn't charge for multiplayer

- It doesn't force a controller on you

- It doesn't make shitty games good or good games shitty

- You don't have to go through PITA certification for your game

- You aren't forced to have a physical media to play a game

- The disc on consoles is not backup capable (unless you own a modded version of the console) while you can backup the data downloaded from Steam anywhere you want.

-

It's in no way even similar to console environment from my point of view. For that matter, if you look at consoles, they're trying to implement a flawed version of Steams license driven approach to games.

So, what's so console-ish about Steam? Please don't say, optional achievements, optional friends, optional notifications of new releases, optional big picture mode.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Sniperwolf572

[chortles 263]

Folks didn't have a problem with "everything" before and it still would be a non issue in case Steam wasn't involved this time around. You have to see that the convenience that was the deciding factor here isn't for you or me, it's for BI. The added convenience (or inconvenience, depending on your Steam opinion) just comes along with their decision to use Steam to solve their own problems.

More specifically, they made a decision that the convenience to developers trumped any inconvenience to "I don't want Steam" users.

[Mr. Charles 22]

Yes no problems took the DVD's from my shelf. Installed them and patched. This isn't rocket science. If your DVd's are scratched that means only that you don't take care of your stuff. I still got my original CWC DVD and I installed it without problems just a few weeks ago. In any case it doesn't matter.

cheers

By scratched I mean micro scratches, where you have to tilt the DVD into the light to see them. Not scratches made by unproper use.

[Alwarren 2767]

Yes very recently. No problems with that. I believe every old timer here on the forums did it a couple of times at least. If the IQ dropped to the center of earth and people are unable to cope with such an easy task maybe they shouldn't play PC games in a first place.

Didn't want to get involved into this stupid debate but I have to say something about this.

This doesn't have anything to do with IQ. I installed Arma 2 for a friend of mine that isn't very good with computers, and didn't want to bother with downloading X amount of patches for Y amount of games/DLC just to have a complete installation. On Steam, you click "Install game" and that's it.

This is the typical elitism of "we don't want the XBox kiddies here, we're the PC master race" kind.

One of the reasons for piracy is actually accessibility because it is more convenient to download a game than go through the hassle of obtaining it legally. It is one of the reasons why Steam is so successful, and plainly, everyone denying that Steam is successful should make a reality check.

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

I do find it funny how all of a sudden everything prior was the biggest struggle and nightmare known to the Armaverse :)

For the record, the first computer system I used was a Phillips P410 mainframe with a 16 character input display and 16 character output, and two built-in printers (one for protocol). At the time I thought it was incredibly powerful. That was, until I got my ZX Spectrum and started to work with TASWORD II and Beta Basic. Felt like heaven. Until I got my Amiga.

You see, yesteyear's state of the art is today's museum piece. They call it progress, and sometimes, it even is. Whether it is in this case is debatable, but one ting is for sure - clicking "Install Game" on Steam is much simpler than the process required to install Arma 2 from CD. Even back in 1980, text processing was possible on the P410. It was possible on the Spectrum, and it certainly was possible on the Amiga. But I do prefer LibreOffice these days, which requires more memory than all of the systems I used before combined. Just because something worked or was possible before doesn't mean that improvement is a bad idea, and whatever you might think about Steam, a single button click IS an improvement over half a dozen patches and installs.

[mrcash2009 0]

Folks didn't have a problem with "everything" before and it still would be a non issue in case Steam wasn't involved this time around. You have to see that the convenience that was the deciding factor here isn't for you or me, it's for BI. The added convenience (or inconvenience, depending on your Steam opinion) just comes along with their decision to use Steam to solve their own problems.

Couldnt put it better myself.

Equating Steam to consoles is a bad argument.

I wasn't, I was talking about the pre steam situation vs post steam situation in terms of post distribution contained (console) and open options (PC), not steam in its entirety.

You see, yesteyear's state of the art is today's museum piece. They call it progress, and sometimes, it even is. Whether it is in this case is debatable, but one ting is for sure - clicking "Install Game" on Steam is much simpler than the process required to install Arma 2 from CD.

I would agree, I never have actually disagreed, but it comes with another cost ... your choices and centralised source without much options or backup plan external from it. As regards progress, all tech is progress for sure, until you hit a very fine line of control within it and trust to a single source.

Edited June 4, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Sniperwolf572 758]

I wasn't, I was talking about the pre steam situation vs post steam situation in terms of post distribution contained (console) and open options (PC), not steam in its entirety.

I would agree, I never have actually disagreed, but it comes with another cost ... your choices and centralised source without much options or backup plan external from it. As regards progress, all tech is progress for sure, until you hit a very fine line of control within it and trust to a single source.

You are trying to paint a wrong picture here. The go-to argument is "they're reducing the options where we can get the game from". That also assumes something horrible, you take that the product will be developed for granted and that the only thing anyone cares for is the distribution method. The development process is irrelevant, the part where you enjoy the game for 4-5 years is irrelevant in that argument the only thing that's relevant is "Where will I get my game from" as if the game appeared on the store shelf magically and after you've bought it you never touch it again.

And really, yes, it's a bad comparison. You can compare PC's to consoles as platforms, and you can compare Steam to Xbox Marketplace or GameStop. I tried to illustrate that with my last list, but it apparently didn't come across. Can Steam gimp your game if you change your GPU? Nope. Can Microsoft block you from the entire Live service if you mod your console? They sure as hell can.

It's a store, not a platform. If SteamBox ever becomes a reality, you can then compare THAT to consoles.

How are consoles contained? Saying that console disc distribution is closed is saying that you can only get a game for your console from GameStop. You can get games them from any outlet and are in large cases handled by regional publishers, that's why (regional) publishers exist, to handle publishing to stores. that's where they earn their money. It's obviously not closed, otherwise the publishers would be extinct. Only thing so far for "closed" that we've seen is Microsoft wanting to introduce licensing into the entire deal so it's more like Steams per-license approach.

Just because Steam is the distributor of choice at this moment for BI it doesn't mean if Steam GOES DOWN RIGHT NOW everything is lost and you'll never play Arma 3 again. Those are worst case scenarios which have plans of action on how to handle them.

If you want to fear for something, it would be much more likely that all of servers that host BI's source code get set on fire at the exact same time, than it is that all of Steam CDNs stop working suddenly.

Until that point, I suggest enjoying the game, it's what matters.

[mrcash2009 0]

The go-to argument is "they're reducing the options where we can get the game from". That also assumes something horrible, you take that the product will be developed for granted and that the only thing anyone cares for is the distribution method.

In a thread debate about steam, then, well ... yes.

The development process is irrelevant, the part where you enjoy the game for 4-5 years is irrelevant in that argument the only thing that's relevant is "Where will I get my game from" as if the game appeared on the store shelf magically and after you've bought it you never touch it again.

Long term is a key point about the distribution method and to do with any future changes to said company you put your central trust in, its not like a distribution method in physical terms, it has an umbilical chord back to the distributor in this case, so its not irrelevant its important.

Can Steam gimp your game if you change your GPU? Nope. Can Microsoft block you from the entire Live service if you mod your console? They sure as hell can.

You missed my point, I was using the console analogy in terms of people wanting "simpler" options compared to the so say "complex" argument, not about steam itself and DRM, just the notion of before/after. Then again, you could get blocked from your games and steam its been shown by bans and many examples, although that wasn't my point.

How are consoles contained?

Compared to a PC I thought that was clear.

Just because Steam is the distributor of choice at this moment for BI it doesn't mean if Steam GOES DOWN RIGHT NOW everything is lost and you'll never play Arma 3 again. Those are worst case scenarios which have plans of action on how to handle them.

Again, I am not talking about BI/Steam ... I'm talking about steam and your trust with entire game collection with steam if this becomes top choice in the future, I was actually talking about your own future tech issues and slow change EULA changes but anyway, other things surrounding it.

If you want to fear for something, it would be much more likely that all of servers that host BI's source code get set on fire at the exact same time, than it is that all of Steam CDNs stop working suddenly.

I dont fear anything, its actually quite a logic concern that centralising options isnt always the best thing in terms of companies getting bigger, shareholders, business decision, tech aspect, and many things between you and the data as I said before.

Until that point, I suggest enjoying the game, it's what matters.

Its a discussion about steam, so fine, does not change the point though :)

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Just because something is clear to you, doesn't mean it makes sense or is seen by everyone else the same way as you do. Plenty of issues around the world today revolve around that outside the tech world. Which brings us to following:

Long term is a key point about the distribution method and to do with any future changes to said company you put your central trust in, its not like a distribution method in physical terms, it has an umbilical chord back to the distributor in this case, so its not irrelevant its important.

Again, I am not talking about BI/Steam ... I'm talking about steam and your trust with entire game collection with steam if this becomes top choice in the future, I was actually talking about your own future tech issues and slow change EULA changes but anyway, other things surrounding it.

I dont fear anything, its actually quite a logic concern that centralising options isnt always the best thing in terms of companies getting bigger, shareholders, business decision, tech aspect, and many things between you and the data as I said before.

I don't think anyone goes "Oh, I've made a Steam account, I'll buy all my games there now". I certainly didn't. A2 was sat as the only game in my Steam library for quite a long time until I got the "trust" you mention for the method.

For many people, A3 is going to be that first step. If they try it out and it turns out shit for them, fair enough, if they like it, good for them. The key part is try, it costs you nothing if you try it with a F2P game like TF2 and to get full features you can get something that costs less than a beer.

The problem here is that many people on the forums here have got the impression that Steam eats children due to the shitty things said about it by a few. Those people in turn take that as "that's how it really is" and then spread the same thing around without checking and where we ended up with people saying "Well, now that I tried Steam, it isn't horrible as my opinion was" recently.

I'll give you that, yes if something horrible happens, I could lose all my games if nobody does anything to untie them from Steam. But that if and might is pretty slim compared to the convenience provided. It's like not flying in planes because if the pilot fucks up or something breaks you could die. Statistically it's very unlikely you'll die in a plane crash and statistically not many people have had games taken away by Steam. I also don't see myself getting banned as I don't plan to do anything that might earn me one. It's a paranoid line of thinking.

Either way, the above is your personal opinion, and I'm fine with it, I've no intentions on trying to change it. But I will argue the uninformed facts that masquerade around here as absolute truths.

[mrcash2009 0]

I don't think anyone goes "Oh, I've made a Steam account, I'll buy all my games there now". I certainly didn't.

I would like to see the data of people who have and those that got 1 game and didn't. There's more chance they would with a shop tied to it and the all important convenient carrot on that stick im sure you would agree on that. That is one point I made quite a few times, that big advert dominates over many for those that want the convenience so its not something to be sniffed at, think of all those potentials once valve client is on those single item purchases.

The problem here is that many people on the forums here have got the impression that Steam eats children due to the shitty things said about it by a few. Those people in turn take that as "that's how it really is" and then spread the same thing around without checking and where we ended up with people saying "Well, now that I tried Steam, it isn't horrible as my opinion was" recently.

You do know that early in the thread I posted (or maybe the steam one in Arma2 section not sure now) that due to Skrim (and mis read on purchase from game uk) I used steam to play it? And I see the benefits, but, I will say it again, there always should be an air of caution with trusting single sources than more options. As regards people saying bad things about steam and people taking word for it, they should have a mind of their own, try it and see, ive never said anything like that, who gives a rats ass about my view to buy a game they like? Or anyone elses for that matter, but ... keep in mind where this may lead in terms of options.

It's like not flying in planes because if the pilot fucks up or something breaks you could die. Statistically it's very unlikely you'll die in a plane crash and statistically not many people have had games taken away by Steam. I also don't see myself getting banned as I don't plan to do anything that might earn me one. It's a paranoid line of thinking.

Being mindful of pitfalls is logical. Telling people it will happen so dont use it is another. Also I only hit on that briefly it wasn't the point I was raising in my reply.

Either way, the above is your personal opinion, and I'm fine with it, I've no intentions on trying to change it. But I will argue the uninformed facts that masquerade around here as absolute truths.

Ive only ever stuck to the points about choice (it all started with my reply recently to DM), centralised one source control, consumer choice, and so uninformed things I would hope didn't come from me, but I might slip up some times.

Edited June 5, 2013 by mrcash2009