Will Bohemia finally improve ARMA's PVP to attract New Players?

[zoog 18]

Dint the DayZ mod attract a good portion of COD kids already?

PvP has nothing to do with COD or any other arcade game. Why do people keep putting COD in the equation. Do you realize there is also a crowd of gamers who played games like Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six, SWAT, SOCOM in adversarial modes. Arma is a perfect platform to use for non-coop gaming as well. Adversarial gaming does not equals arcade style COD gaming. It's all about the platform that is used, the underlying mechanics and gameplay. Arma is a realistic military/combined arms shooter and is perfectly suitable for tactical and realistic adversarial gaming, without degrading to kill streaks, frag fests or whatever people are scared of.

[iceman77 18]

Obviously some of these people weren't around during arma1 and early arma2, where there were BF type game modes such as C&H (known as conquest in bf). Sadly it has always been left ENTIRELY up to the community of map makers to design such maps/game modes. For those who never got the chance to check the "berzerk" maps out, back in Arma1 & 2, think BF on steroids. An enormous enviroment, plenty of weapons and vehicles, and you weren't confined to a tiny map like a rat in a cage (like in BF). Vehicles didnt have infinite ammo and didnt magically regen health.Those were some of the funnest gaming times for me. You could hop into a server with 50-80 people and have a blast, with a good balanced game mode that offered the best of both worlds in terms of a realism and fun.

If you like BF, then you would drool over the old berzerk maps. It offered everything that people want but cant obtain in BF...

The games always been like a box of chocolates.. you never know what you're gonna get.. since anything is possible with such an open source game.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Iceman77

[R0adki11 3949]

Obviously some of these people weren't around during arma1 and early arma2, where there were BF type game modes such as C&H (known as conquest in bf). Sadly it has always been left ENTIRELY up to the community of map makers to design such maps/game modes. For those who never got the chance to check the "berzerk" maps out, back in Arma1 & 2, think BF on steroids. An enormous enviroment, plenty of weapons and vehicles, and you weren't confined to a tiny map like a rat in a cage (like in BF). Vehicles didnt have infinite ammo and didnt magically regen health.Those were some of the funnest gaming times for me. You could hop into a server with 50-80 people and have a blast, with a good balanced game mode that offered the best of both worlds in terms of a realism and fun.

I agree that the map makers did have to design and make such modes. Such modes were avaliable in OFP too, such as Battlefield 1985 which was great for PvP. Alot of the old OFP/Arma1 Leagues had a great selection of C&H, CTF and Combi (CTF and Hold Middle Flag) Maps but these were all community developed. Made by leagues such as European Flashpoint League or European Combat League.

If BIS was to improve PvP perhaps including a few straight out of the box C&H,CTF and bigger scenarios maps would give a good basis to help attract new players and then let the community map makkers improve on them. At the end of the day Arma3 will be a big sandbox, use it how you want.

[iceman77 18]

I agree that the map makers did have to design and make such modes. Such modes were avaliable in OFP too, such as Battlefield 1985 which was great for PvP. Alot of the old OFP/Arma1 Leagues had a great selection of C&H, CTF and Combi (CTF and Hold Middle Flag) Maps but these were all community developed. Made by leagues such as European Flashpoint League or European Combat League.

If BIS was to improve PvP perhaps including a few straight out of the box C&H,CTF and bigger scenarios maps would give a good basis to help attract new players and then let the community map makkers improve on them. At the end of the day Arma3 will be a big sandbox, use it how you want.

yeah it would be nice to see some c&h / AAS game modes, with snazzy interfaces straight out of the box.

---------- Post added at 04:39 ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 ----------

Also ARMA2 have same amount of toys as all modern games together – newcomers are getting lost in all this stuff ….

No Arma2 has much more vehicles and variants of vehicles. Also, isn't "getting lost" in the amount of content, in a virtual world of freedom when you first try games like ofp/arma an awesome experience? I know it was for me.

[kraftknife 1]

Righto they better include some multi-player features that made the Cod and BF series successful for the good of genuine gamers who can appreciate and enjoy a rich gameplay , WHILE STILL MAINTAINING THE ESSENCE OF ARMA AS WHAT IT IS AND STAYING THE HELL FAR AWAY FROM anything that make up a or anything close to TDM game.

[blackmamb 2]

Try not to yell at people. Once again, I don't get your point. What is wrong with Team DeathMatch? Nothing. We certainly play some quick TDM between coop missions each week and have a lot of fun doing so.

The difference between Arma and COD is not in the objective (a deathmatch can be played in both those games), it's the way it's done. You can't expect to see people ramboing around with a sniper rifle and headshotting 4 dudes in a matter of seconds, in CQB, in Arma.

That's it. The difference is here. Nothing else.

Now I understand some of you feel it's sad BIS doesn't give us such gamemodes right outta the box, but... I mean, that's kinda the point of a sandbox game, right? You do pretty much anything you want to. You want death match? Create a deathmatch.

You want overly realistic coop mission? Do so. The fact is, unlike any of those games, Arma can and will evolve as long as there is a community behind it. Playing Battlefield 3 today, you're basically playing the exact same game you were playing when Battlefield 1942 came out. Granted, the graphics are different, but the rules are the same.

What I mean is, I don't see the point Bohemia even taking a minute developing a PVP gamemode. We'll do that alright. Devs can have ideas and develop and share their stuff after that, as it is today.

I also am one of those that consider public servers to be horribly uninteresting. I'll play twice a week with the basic same group of people, and have tremendous fun doing so. We come up with quite a lot of original missions, be it PVP or coop, or mixed. Nobody hacks anything. Nobody's a pain in the ass. People come to play in an organized manner, even though we're not milsim at all. I guess that's why I don't see the point of this. I don't want to play a premade gamemode with people I know are gonna mess it up anyway, sooner or later.

[batto 17]

I also am one of those that consider public servers to be horribly uninteresting. I'll play twice a week with the basic same group of people, and have tremendous fun doing so. We come up with quite a lot of original missions, be it PVP or coop, or mixed. Nobody hacks anything. Nobody's a pain in the ass. People come to play in an organized manner, even though we're not milsim at all. I guess that's why I don't see the point of this. I don't want to play a premade gamemode with people I know are gonna mess it up anyway, sooner or later.

I play 3 other games on publics and nobody ruin it by hacks or childish behaviour. Public games are place where people/communities/clans meet, challenge each other and generally have fun together and I like it. If CoD publics are filled with screaming kids with hacks maybe it's because the CoD is targeted at this audience.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Now I understand some of you feel it's sad BIS doesn't give us such gamemodes right outta the box, but... I mean, that's kinda the point of a sandbox game, right? You do pretty much anything you want to. You want death match? Create a deathmatch.

You want overly realistic coop mission? Do so. The fact is, unlike any of those games, Arma can and will evolve as long as there is a community behind it. Playing Battlefield 3 today, you're basically playing the exact same game you were playing when Battlefield 1942 came out. Granted, the graphics are different, but the rules are the same.

What I mean is, I don't see the point Bohemia even taking a minute developing a PVP gamemode. We'll do that alright. Devs can have ideas and develop and share their stuff after that, as it is today.

True but you have placed the onus on the community. And yes the community can do this well but if BIS do it there would be something else to be gained, ie a larger more focused following in PvP and the game in general by those that may not be bothered to checkout the community at large, that, and it certainly wouldn't hurt.

Check posts 484 to 496 , to see this exact point already discussed.

[blackmamb 2]

Check posts 484 to 496 , to see this exact point already discussed.

On my way.

@batto: I'm sorry, I keep reading here people complaining about how much "hackers" and stupid kiddies there are on arma 2 public servers, not COD. I understand we have a pretty high opinion of "our" game, and there's some kind of pride being an arma 2 player and not a "COD kiddy", but let's not fool ourselves. Public gaming in arma 2 is no better, or not much.

Though once again, I was trying to explain my judgement, not present it as a fact. I, and it is my opinion, don't like public gaming. Doesn't mean that public gamming is bad. Means I don't like it.

[iceman77 18]

On my way.

@batto: I'm sorry, I keep reading here people complaining about how much "hackers" and stupid kiddies there are on arma 2 public servers, not COD. I understand we have a pretty high opinion of "our" game, and there's some kind of pride being an arma 2 player and not a "COD kiddy", but let's not fool ourselves. Public gaming in arma 2 is no better, or not much.

Though once again, I was trying to explain my judgement, not present it as a fact. I, and it is my opinion, don't like public gaming. Doesn't mean that public gamming is bad. Means I don't like it.

Well, hacks are certainly more prevalent in COD/BF than in Arma, even though its an open source (or w/e) game. Through the years, I've noticed one big difference; People usually hack Arma to cause havoc and destruction, basically to troll.Dropping bombs from the sky, spawning large amounts of objects to crash the server etc While in games like COD/BF, "cheating" type hacks are more common. Meaning, people hack to enhance their score / KvD by shooting through walls, aimbots etc. Not saying these types aren't used in Arma, just not so much.

[xeno 234]

I guess now that Celery seems to be no BIS developer anymore it's time for some of you here to look at this, apply and with a little bit luck you can create the scenarios you are looking for... :)

Xeno

[Tonci87 163]

Celery is not a BIS Dev anymore?

[iceman77 18]

I guess now that Celery seems to be no BIS developer anymore it's time for some of you here to look at this, apply and with a little bit luck you can create the scenarios you are looking for... :)

Xeno

Stop trolling Xeno. You have to know and be good at SP/MP scripting as well as programming in general. Why don't you go work for BI and make us some six pvp maps?

Edited November 4, 2012 by Iceman77

[KurtG85 10]

ArmA doesn't truly shine until it can integrate all of its aspects of realism and necessity for organization and communication into an accessible PvP mode. I've only ever seen one server that came close to doing this in arma2 with some user made map and custom gear purchasing system to keep things relatively balanced. It wasn't a laughably oversized play area like that common mode that uses the whole map. It had a series of zones within maybe 10 square miles of the map or so that both teams competed to capture which allowed you to spawn there, reminiscent of battlefield (which works great). Unfortunately I couldn't stay long because it had a ping limit and the server was overseas. The potential for the nuanced teamwork, tactics, and communication that would need to be practiced and developed when one group of intelligent humans competes against another in such a tactically complex game is mind boggling and if this mode were made easily accessible ArmA would instantly become a one of a kind experience.

Some things keeping this from happening might be the difficult task of keeping things balanced and exploit-free in such a complex game. That really shouldn't be that hard though. The game would also become unbelievably unfriendly to new players. I also imagine the devs would face some major 'national security' flak given the hardcore personalities that would inevitably flock to such an intensely realistic 'training aid'.

Honestly that one game where I experienced the adrenaline of a relatively balanced 50 vs 50 or so pvp session in a reasonably sized map with some appropriate tactical 'steering' of the combat into strategic areas (like in battlefield) opened my eyes to just how little of the games potential fun is on display in the co-op mindless AI zombie slaughters. I had put many many 100s of hours into the game before that and I lost most of my interest after seeing all the potential fun and tactics I was missing out on.

[chipper 0]

Anyone remember PvP in the OFP days? Hexenkessel anyone? Just search youtube for "operation flashpoint CTF"

Some Examples:

- PvP worked in OFP and was great fun

I do, I was in a few clans that would be playing PvP most nights vs other clans. It was a ton of fun. CTF/TDM/DM/C&H/ and especially CTI were all great to play in OFP and there were a large chunk of the MP community playing those game modes.

Then ArmA came around, and introduced ridiculously clunky player animations that make any quick reaction PvP pointless and frustrating, PvP never really took off in ArmA because of this. It literally took about 5 seconds just to get a hand grenade off, I'm not saying BIS needs to make the game handle like CS but shit...we don't need long drawn out animations for chucking a frag.

ArmA III could potentially have amazing PvP action bringing back the OFP glory days.

But in my opinion it all rides on BIS making the controls less clunky and animations more streamlined/efficient and responsive, as long as they do that PvP should thrive on it's own.

And of course the community making good PvP maps helps alot too.

[=jps=sgtrock 4]

Anyone remember PvP in the OFP days? Hexenkessel anyone? Just search youtube for "operation flashpoint CTF"

Some Examples:

- PvP worked in OFP and was great fun

I do, I was in a few clans that would be playing PvP most nights vs other clans. It was a ton of fun. CTF/TDM/DM/C&H/ and especially CTI were all great to play in OFP and there were a large chunk of the MP community playing those game modes.

Then ArmA came around, and introduced ridiculously clunky player animations that make any quick reaction PvP pointless and frustrating, PvP never really took off in ArmA because of this. It literally took about 5 seconds just to get a hand grenade off, I'm not saying BIS needs to make the game handle like CS but shit...we don't need long drawn out animations for chucking a frag.

ArmA III could potentially have amazing PvP action bringing back the OFP glory days.

But in my opinion it all rides on BIS making the controls less clunky and animations more streamlined/efficient and responsive, as long as they do that PvP should thrive on it's own.

And of course the community making good PvP maps helps alot too.

You're absolutely correct. The one thing that OFP lacked for really good PvP was a decent JIP system. We get that with ArmA but seem to have traded away the smooth play that made the original MP gametypes so much fun. :(

[rulie-JDF- 10]

Mods like JSRS, ACE, blastcore FX .... makes ARMA2 superb. But there comes the problem - when you looking on server list there tons of server with all possible variations of addons what makes joining to some sever almost impossible.

Thats one of the probs ive been having. ArmA 2 = which mod, installing them right is a mission in it's self.

[metalcraze 290]

PvP in OFP was great fun but anims in it were clunky-incarnate. Not only that but there always was a slight delay in between you hitting a key and soldier beginning to move. Which affected things badly way past a mere PvP

So saying that ArmA/ArmA2 somehow made it worse is simply not true.

[LeeManatee 4]

arma is not a competatve pvp game to begin with. if devs will focus more on communication tools, and stuff that may help to organize the gameplay like ACRE, some ACE features and so on, it will be great. arma is not bf or cod, where rambostyle is rewarded, but tactical team fps.

[rye1 21]

Actually, Rambo style is rewarded in ARMA - they get all the kills because they can exploit being a lone wolf.

[Smurf 12]

Don't find regarding playing as lone wolf in PR. Sure, you score some kills at some unadvised troops but as soon they know where you are, you probably ain't going home.

[Trebor 10]

Hello people of ARMA. I should start by saying that i don't play ARMA at the moment (need new PC). Not sure if that makes me posting here a problem so if someone could let me know then i will leave you all in peace. I originally registered because like an idiot i brought ARMA 2: BAF and PMC version without considering the PC requirements, and yes, i did slap myself. I won't be an inconvenience to the forum by making stupid threads or adding my opinion where it's not needed. That seems like i'm begging to be let in, lol, just want to explain though.

If people aren't attracted to this game as it is, then you don't them playing the game or the devs putting their attention to attracting them. I think alot of people would regret that. From what i've seen in videos, ARMA and it's mods appeals to me alot, infact it's the sort of game i've been wanting for a long time but never knew existed, now i do. And as someone who wants to make the transition from console to PC, with ARMA being the main reason for getting a PC that can play games. The last thing i want to see is this game ruined for ARMA players, and myself when i get it. Like someone else said, "the reason games like COD and BF3 are so popular is because anyone can play them". I understand ARMA has it's own problems, but what doesn't, you take the good with the bad right.

I hope that has been somewhat helpfull, and i hope to speak to more of you either here or on the virtual battlefield in the near future. Oh and apologies for any grammar mistakes, i'm not great at it.

[dragon01 902]

Try ArmA I if you don't have a good computer. It's less advanced, but mods are still plentiful.

I agree that BI shouldn't try too hard to appeal to mainstream market, but there are some things that even the vets are complaining about (in some cases, since OFP). Especially the non-gameplay stuff needs an overhaul, the process of customizing certain things is downright arcane. ArmA will, hopefully, never be for "everyone" (unless real military equipment advances to the point VBS will play much like the first Crysis, which isn't as impossible as seems), but it should be because of deep, tactical gameplay, not clunky user interface.

[steele6 0]

look, make small DM or TDM maps, (stick a could of crates around half a village, make the rest of the island unplayable(like BF3) add one bmp or vehicle perhaps to each side, and viola, you have decent PVP map. but make it ARMA unique, add a fireteam mechanic, in TDM, or the ability to call in an airstrike or something. then for the fireteam mechanic (coz in arma work as a team and its better right? ) make it rewarding from a gameplay point to be able to work in a team. the whole PVP thing is dependant on the mapmakers. choose decent, balanced terrain, give any weapon choice and you have a decent TDM/DM new players paradise, then when they have been weaned off other games, arma 3 will be more appealing.

the main problem I would say about some arma 3 games in terms of the mainstream players, is that it takes a long time to get into the action. so make the combat closer to the player spawns and cut the long car rides in MP. the unforgiving nature of arma combat is still awesome, so that should not be changed.

[LeeManatee 4]

look, make small DM or TDM maps,

one of the main arma features is scale. the only flaw is organization. i'm pretty sure any so called mainstream playr would love to jump into arma if gameplay will be more organized and less chaotic.

c/p bf/cod formula is useless, since arma is all about lare scale combat afterall. just make it more understandable and organized.