How to improve the Close Quarter Combat experience in Arma 3?

[Choki 10]

Also BIS needs to add an animation of soldier holding a grenade when you switch to it.

It's seriously annoying when in the middle of a tight combat you want to fire with your weapon but throw a grenade instead because you forgot to switch from it / didn't press F the right amount of times.

When you switch to a grenade the soldier should lower his weapon and take out a grenade. Simple and fast. Will also allow for that throwing angle aiming.

Yes I agree whit that :p

[PN11A 2]

Faster movement. Careful hurry helped out when my squad did some Raids in OA. We need an offcial version so that when shot you dont run and dive on the ground. My only problem with CQC was the speed the characters moved the rest could be worked around.

Shooting from ladders. Carry a ladder put it over a wall and shoot into compounds.

Jump fences and walls.(for thos saying you cannot jump in full gear im not sure what your physical condition is but ive deffinatly jumped walls in full kit.)

Dynamic entry tools. C4 for locked doors, shotguns for doors, door kick Hoolagan bar.

those would be nice additions. But mainly the speed. Fluid movements thats the key everything else is rubbish.

[mikelt006 10]

Make the soldier more human. In A2 they acy like robots and do everything very slowly and laggy, in actual life you can run quick, hide behind corners, throw a grenade fast and stuff like that.

[PuFu 4591]

sprinting in A2 is around 26-30kms/h IRC. You call that slow?

[antoineflemming 14]

Only movement I really think needs to be faster is the walking speed. And there probably will be a faster walk/jog/whatever with the tactical pace.

I think sprinting is fine. Yeah, that speed is a little ridiculous over a long distance. But, operationally, sprinting only occurs when sprinting between cover, so it wouldn't seem too fast if you could only sprint between cover (if, say, a cover system was implemented). Honestly, I'd say ArmA's sprinting isn't really realistic because you can sprint top speed with full gear on for quite a while before you get tired and slow down. But, I'm not asking that they only allow you to sprint for 5 secs. I'm fine with an unrealistic sprint lol. Point is that as far as sprinting is concerned, we've got it made. No need for BIS to make sprinting any faster.

[rye1 21]

Walking is good to catch up on stamina though haha. It's crazy if you compare it to reality, really fast.

Awesome!

Killed half the room! LOL.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 PM ----------

Shooting from ladders. Carry a ladder put it over a wall and shoot into compounds.

If true, how would we do this? Like the video before? Placing it, like sandbags in ACE. That would take a bit of time...

Bridge ladders would be awesome to see.

[galzohar 31]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/670743543/ground-branch

Check out the video for some ideas of how weapon handling can be done better...

[instagoat 133]

I think the AI needs to be completely re-written from the bottom up. Or not even that, it needs to be scrapped, and something brand new built instead. The core of this AI engine was built for the requirements of a 2001 game, 2001 era rigs and on 2001 era technological and knowledge requirements. I am pretty sure the AI technology out there has advanced by now, and Arma 3 would -seriously- benefit from a new AI that makes use of whatever new technology can be used.

As it is now, it is clunky, and it is so complex that apparently not even the devs know exactly why it is doing something, and why it is -not- doing something.

[nmdanny 22]

Movement needs to be fluid and faster, with faster and fluid animations

[Smurf 12]

That video, or the part where he does many micro corrections to place the charge on the door, is the perfect summary of why CQB in ARMA sucks.

The movement is not continuous or fluid, is somekind "binary".

[metalcraze 290]

I think the AI needs to be completely re-written from the bottom up. Or not even that, it needs to be scrapped, and something brand new built instead. The core of this AI engine was built for the requirements of a 2001 game, 2001 era rigs and on 2001 era technological and knowledge requirements. I am pretty sure the AI technology out there has advanced by now, and Arma 3 would -seriously- benefit from a new AI that makes use of whatever new technology can be used.

As it is now, it is clunky, and it is so complex that apparently not even the devs know exactly why it is doing something, and why it is -not- doing something.

Can you give me an example of this magical modern AI technology that is so much better than "2001" ArmA AI?

Just curios. I read posts about this legendary advanced AI that ArmA should reach for but nobody ever gives any examples.

[dragon01 902]

Try Crysis (the first one). Though not exactly the kind of AI we're discussing (being designed for jungle combat, which shows in the sequels), but they're smarter than AII AI in "their" environment. They use grenades, cover, flank and retreat to get backup when outmatched. ArmA AI can and should be improved.

[nodunit 397]

And it's all set up, nothing more than predefined parameters which tell the AI where they can walk, where cover points are and so on. If you open one of the Crysis levels in Sandbox 2, namely the first, you will see that all AI around the small village-ish areas are confined to a red box with spheres and lines connecting them. If you engage them in this zone, they will follow those parameters but if you simply ignore them and run past, they will stay put in that red box. In fact in the earlier levels save for the ones where you must clear out to proceed to the next objective, you can simply bypass all enemy AI without a fuss.

It's not that the AI was designed for 2001 era rigs, it was designed for wide scale open environments, not CQB. Sure there were a few missions of close quarters in OFP but compare that to the quarter clutter vs A2 or even Arrowhead. They walk, they lean, they flank but they are still using an open world method which simply does not follow the same parameters as close quarters.

Edited December 18, 2012 by NodUnit

[chortles 263]

Only movement I really think needs to be faster is the walking speed. And there probably will be a faster walk/jog/whatever with the tactical pace.

I think sprinting is fine. Yeah, that speed is a little ridiculous over a long distance. But, operationally, sprinting only occurs when sprinting between cover, so it wouldn't seem too fast if you could only sprint between cover (if, say, a cover system was implemented). Honestly, I'd say ArmA's sprinting isn't really realistic because you can sprint top speed with full gear on for quite a while before you get tired and slow down. But, I'm not asking that they only allow you to sprint for 5 secs. I'm fine with an unrealistic sprint lol. Point is that as far as sprinting is concerned, we've got it made. No need for BIS to make sprinting any faster.

I believe it was Vespa who posted this, but compared to Arma 2 and as of a certain Arma 3 build (Gamescom?) sprinting and running were actually slower than in Arma 2, while walking was about the same and tactical pace precisely at the halfway point between walk and run (Arma 3 version).

I wouldn't be surprised if the Firing Drills section of Camp Maxwell was used specifically to show off the changes in Arma 3 CQB "control and feel" compared to Arma 2.

It's not that the AI was designed for 2001 era rigs, it was designed for wide scale open environments, not CQB.

Replace "AI" with "Real Virtuality" and you've got the limitations of the series right there.

[-Coulum- 35]

Can you give me an example of this magical modern AI technology that is so much better than "2001" ArmA AI?

Just curios. I read posts about this legendary advanced AI that ArmA should reach for but nobody ever gives any examples.

I think what Insta is saying is that even in 2001 bis were able to make a very good ai. Now it looks like the limits of that ai are being reached. So maybe it is time to restart, utilizing the latest and greates tools available to make an ai that is not only smarter but also more performance friendly. Look what could be done with 2001 tech and now imagine what could be done with 2012 tech. Comparing with other games is pointless and irrelevant. Bis shouldn't strive to have ai as good as such and such game but rather should try to go above and beyond what other games have(if they already haven't), and lead in the department (at least that's what I would love them to do).

Bringing it back to somewhat on topic, I agree with InstaGoat - for ai to really be capable at CQB a large chunk of it, if not all of it, probably needs to be re-written using better tech and hindsight to overcome its current shortcomings. Of course I don't think/expect bis to actually do this for A3 but i do think that eventually they will have to bite the bullet, unless of course PVP become so dominant that ai is no longer a huge priority. Anyhow I think that sort of discussion is best taken to the ai thread.

Regarding movement speeds, I do hope the stamina system prevents you from sprinting for miles at world class pace. I am also curious - can you look down the sights when moving at tactical pace or do you automatically walk upon using the sights. My impression from the vids is the latter but I am not certain. I would prefer it this way as well considering, how steady your aim seems to be on the move now.

[chortles 263]

Bringing it back to somewhat on topic, I agree with InstaGoat - for ai to really be capable at CQB a large chunk of it, if not all of it, probably needs to be re-written using better tech and hindsight to overcome its current shortcomings. Of course I don't think/expect bis to actually do this for A3 but i do think that eventually they will have to bite the bullet, unless of course PVP become so dominant that ai is no longer a huge priority. Anyhow I think that sort of discussion is best taken to the ai thread.

The reason I don't see it happening is simply because of InstaGoat's own report on Gamescom (i.e. talking with Gaia) about BI's plans for AI being much, much less ambitious and "new features" than some community members were imagining.

Regarding movement speeds, I do hope the stamina system prevents you from sprinting for miles at world class pace. I am also curious - can you look down the sights when moving at tactical pace or do you automatically walk upon using the sights. My impression from the vids is the latter but I am not certain. I would prefer it this way as well considering, how steady your aim seems to be on the move now.

If you see my post above... sprinting for miles may require little to no encumbrance, but it won't be at "world class pace" anymore :D and here's the quote from Vespa himself from back around E3:

Actually both running and sprinting in Arma3 are slower than in Arma2. Walk is about the same speed, and tactical pace is precisely inbetween walk and run.

All movement animations are mocap, just cleaned up, but not artificially stretched or sped up in any way.

I have seen no mention from any dev that this had changed as of the Gamescom build or afterward. Also, I asked Smookie after Gamescom about the question of aiming and I got a "no" which suggests that using the sights forces walking speed while using regular first-person or third-person view allows tactical pace, run and sprint.

For my personally the addition of tactical pace and the change in mouse look/aim as of Gamescom, plus the seeming "steady aim on the move" at extremely close distances* are already the biggest improvements in the Close Quarters Combat experience and made me optimistic and interested in buying and playing Arma 3, though we have had yet to see any change on weapon collision, i.e. we haven't seen "low ready" or if they've simply taken the st_movement concept and made it vanilla Arma 3.

EDIT: One thing I've noticed about the change in crosshairs is that now you actually need to aim down the sight to have a central point of aim (the front sight post or the optic's reticle) since the "broken circle"/"expanding ring" crosshairs lacks one, and the "steady aim on the move" is seemingly only at walk speed, while to my knowledge tactical pace and hipfire (both first-person and third-person) have only been used at extremely close-range targets, using that "expanding ring" or no crosshair...

* As exemplified by the Firing Drills videos and a few of the "town clearing" instances in some videos (i.e. the "Deterrence" campaign mission) as opposed to videos of machine gun and sniper rifle long-range shots at the Shooting Range where the aim and recoil seem more "difficult".

Edited December 19, 2012 by Chortles

[instagoat 133]

Can you give me an example of this magical modern AI technology that is so much better than "2001" ArmA AI?

Just curios. I read posts about this legendary advanced AI that ArmA should reach for but nobody ever gives any examples.

Not really talking about magic. The problem with the AI is that it cannot do certain things flat. For example, Devs already confirmed that while all buildings will be enterable, the AI by default will not be able to fight trough them and use them for cover, outside of scripted solutions (which are already available from the community, and none of them solve the problem of AI being unable to do CQB in a completely satisfactory fashion.). The AI still will not automatically rearm itself, it cannot use backpacks on its own, and it is a performance hog. Placing 40 Units on the map and having them fight inside a town will chop my fps from 60 down to 20. Even Arma 3 had this problem at Gamescom. Granted, the PCs were overheating, but when many AI units were on the map, FPS drops were marked compared to scenes where AI were not actively moving around and fighting.

The development overhead the AI has seems to be limited, especially considering that things like underground buildings and AI using buildings in CQB were mentioned when Arma 3 was announced as maybe being planned, but then explicitly denied as being implemented because the AI doesn´t do it well (or at all.). Starting from scratch, you can make a list of new requirements, what you want to do within the framework of the game, and how to achieve your goals. You can´t bend a piano into a guitar just because somebody wants you to have it sound like a guitar. Modders can tack gadgets on the piano to make it sound -something- like a guitar, but it won´t be a guitar. If you want a guitar, don´t take an old piano, you build a new guitar.

The problem is that this is a massive development effort, especially seeing how extensive the abillities of the RV AI are at this point. Any new development will, at the start, probably fall way short of the old system, and will have to endure long and lasting criticism before being polished to the point where it can begin to shine. And I think the current AI has reached its development overhead limit, and anything done to it will make it only more complicated and difficult to work with. So, I think we will not see a new AI prior to either a big addon package for Arma 3, or even Arma 4.

Not magic, just about building a new AI for a new Decade.

Cheers

Insta

[rangerpl 13]

Also BIS needs to add an animation of soldier holding a grenade when you switch to it.

It's seriously annoying when in the middle of a tight combat you want to fire with your weapon but throw a grenade instead because you forgot to switch from it / didn't press F the right amount of times.

When you switch to a grenade the soldier should lower his weapon and take out a grenade. Simple and fast. Will also allow for that throwing angle aiming.

Ahem.

aGt8QbK61aE

HylAK_biGfk

As for close quarters, just because the AI won't be able to take advantage of it, doesn't mean it's not worth fixing. Not everyone plays co-op you know.

Edited December 21, 2012 by RangerPL

[maturin 12]

And the AI won't be able to use grenades in a maze of open world buildings in any case.

However, the biggest unmentioned missed opportunity with ArmA is designing every object with AI-cover path nodes around it, plus hints pointing out doors and windows, etc.

[froggyluv 2130]

However, the biggest unmentioned missed opportunity with ArmA is designing every object with AI-cover path nodes around it, plus hints pointing out doors and windows, etc.

This! Would be an absolute game changer and might add the ability for AI vertical "lean up/down" as similar to their quite capable lateral wall leans would pretty much settle the whole deal.

[zaksle75 1]

Doubt Ai will use buildings v.v

[maturin 12]

We can always dream. It seems like such a feature would eliminate a good portion of what we accept as the limitations of a 3D world. And wouldn't it also cut down on processing power? At the moment the AI is incapable of realizing when it is actually covered from a threat because of all the expensive ray-tracing, or interpreting the complex interior space of a building.

But they could just make its movement decisions node-based. Mark the nodes based on which side of a building they are on, and have the AI choose the one on the far side from the enemies. Or have AI in interior always face the door or window node nearest to their currently-tracked target, rather than aiming at its footsteps through an impenetrable wall to get shot in the back.

It's the sort of thing that can only be accomplished before a game is released with all its assets, and won't be added during ArmA 3's 4-odd year lifespan.

And don't forget how the new LOS commands and headless client has pushed the AI's reaction time competency in CQB. Now they just need some helpful tools to understand their environments.

[Don Camillo 10]

I brought the following idea a view month in the past already and i think i'ts time to throw it in again:

Freelook should work different than it does actually:

State now:

Now we "snap" our head back to the center as soon we release the freeLook-Btn.

This forces us to reaquire a target we already spottet. Compared to what we're familiar with

in RL, this behaviour is completly unorthodx. Watch yoursef: Before you turn your body, you turn

our head - and than the body turns after it. Our eyes never loose track of a POI.

Never saw any lifeform with forward-looking eyes spotting something, than turning the head to

a miracolous Center to turn the whole body into the desired direction after it.

How it shoul be (imo)

We're spotting a target with freelook pressed, once we release it, the Body turns into that direction.

Maybe different behaviour in different stances woul'd helpful, or an option to toggle that behaviour.

Just an Idea, ...

of course something to discuss.

cheers

fREAk

[maddogx 13]

an option to toggle that behaviour.

^^ If such a thing was implemented, it should definitely be optional.

Of course, this feature wouldn't affect headtracking users anyway, since freelook is never "released". ;)

[jinxswe 1]

Over all the game shouldent be so clunky as the other arma games is...

Iv never feelt that the arma games and flashpoint have made the gun animation and fireing animations good. It just dosent feel like real life.

No it shouldent be like COD dont want freaking bunnyhoppers and spray and prayers... No not like BF3 neither... how ever bf3 have made the gun movment so it feels more "real" and not as clunky.

And this is a as i see it a problem with arma and CQ game play... becuse the guns feel clunky... a bit heavy its hard to do it good.

For me the recoil is to big to... with a 5.56 weapon in CQ the spread isent that big. We did CQ all the time in the army and im sorry to say it but then BF3 is much closer to the "real" life.