How to improve the Close Quarter Combat experience in Arma 3?

[jonneymendoza 10]

You do know that there is no such thing as a 'CQC engine', right? Do you mean the system that controls the animations? A better and more responsive animation system would be nice, but just ripping it out of BF3 wouldn't work. The devs would have to jump through all sorts of legal loopholes and fork over some serious money and even then it's not certain.

yes i mean animations and responsiveness. you cannot deny that bf3 does have some nice realistic animations and response. implement anything near that and arma 3 will be perfect in my eyes

[Whirly 1]

to improve CQC it shoudl be as responsive as BF3 imo. basicaly use BF3 CQC engine and slap on the usual realistic weapon handling and physics.

Excellent idea.

s1MmkrYnG9I

[jonneymendoza 10]

Excellent idea.

s1MmkrYnG9I

BF3 not BF2

[rye1 21]

yes i mean animations and responsiveness. you cannot deny that bf3 does have some nice realistic animations and response. implement anything near that and arma 3 will be perfect in my eyes

On the odd occasion, but it is a game focused around CQC. Realistically focused? Another matter - quite the contrary. Post up a few pictures of videos and it may help your point.

[roberthammer 582]

- BF3 is super realistic /nope.avi

BF3 don't have anything realistic there - only good echo sounds that's all

[R0adki11 3945]

- BF3 is super realistic /nope.avi

BF3 don't have anything realistic there - only good echo sounds that's all

Agree with RobertHammer on that.

[froggyluv 2130]

Hahaha! "Bunny hop, like a Bo$$".

Did he really say it's not as hard todo as in Counterstrike? Think ima Bunny Hop to work today to beat traffic. Thats about as polar opposite as I can imagine to true CQB movement - watch Whirly's video (post 53).

[jonneymendoza 10]

Agree with RobertHammer on that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yPzt-QvEA

[Mr. Charles 22]

Well i could post the video where the LAV jumps over Kharg Island, touches the sea and gets propelled 200 meters in the air, but that isn't gonna prove anyone's point, now is it?

[jonneymendoza 10]

Well i could post the video where the LAV jumps over Kharg Island, touches the sea and gets propelled 200 meters in the air, but that isn't gonna prove anyone's point, now is it?

Thats my exact point. i can post many bugs from arma 2's animation just like u can on bf3 but when its "working" bf3's cqc animation and responsiveness is ALOT better then arma 2's. only dedicated fanboy will disagree on that.

why do you think this thread was even made if arma 2's cqc was good?

[Mr. Charles 22]

why do you think this thread was even made if arma 2's cqc was good?

Look, i am not saying that A2's CQC is any good. In fact the simulation only works realistically in long range engagements.

[spotter001 82]

well, for the start, they could get rid of that inaccurate pointing system which prevents me from sending my teammates where i want 'em. u know that annoying feel, u aim at the ground but the cursor won't change. it gets terribly frustrating when u try coordinating anything inside close quarters....they could solve that, for the start.

[rye1 21]

well, for the start, they could get rid of that inaccurate pointing system which prevents me from sending my teammates where i want 'em. u know that annoying feel, u aim at the ground but the cursor won't change. it gets terribly frustrating when u try coordinating anything inside close quarters....they could solve that, for the start.

By replacing it with what?

Problem -> suggestion.

[CameronMcDonald 146]

Thats my exact point. i can post many bugs from arma 2's animation just like u can on bf3 but when its "working" bf3's cqc animation and responsiveness is ALOT better then arma 2's. only dedicated fanboy will disagree on that.

why do you think this thread was even made if arma 2's cqc was good?

I'm one of the first to agree that the CQB in A2 is clunky as shite, but that doesn't mean that attaching castor wheels and giving everyone teflon pants a la 99.9% of shooters is the solution.

[Flash Thunder 10]

Just implement kinect BIS boom!

no more problems....

[Clarkey1 10]

@spotter: I think I know what you mean, and I think it's mostly an issue with AI path finding. Well maybe not an issue but the amount of points the AI can move to is lacking. Looking at the green line that represents building points an AI soldier can be ordered to really gives us a good example of this. I think better path finding for AI would go hand in hand with improving the way AI operate in urban environments. Having a small amount of positions for the AI to move to works fine out in the open but when we try to manage them in tight areas it really shows how limited they are. Things like moving around the other side of buildings in some sort of weird attempt to stay in formation. Maybe only ramping up the number of AI move positions in built up areas and leaving the open terrain as is would help keep the number down while improving urban path finding. After all we don't need thousands of positions out in the middle of a wheat field.

Another way to improve AI in CQB could be to make them more automated when ordered to certain positions. i.e. Instead of ordering units to go to a wall or building individually, being able to order multiple units to a single point and have them stack up at adjacent points would increase the speed of navigating urban environments with an AI team. Also the way formations are maintained could use improvement. I'm not so sure on how this would be achieved. But making the AI mirror the players movements while avoiding doing a lap around a building while moving down an alleyway or inside a house? Maybe having tight, loose, combat (default) formation options might help, and again having better path finding could improve formation 'tightness' and synchronicity in CQB/MOUT environments.

EDIT: I just remembered hearing in the GC presentation last year that AI path finding would be improved, just don't know how or to what extent yet.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Clarkey1

[spotter001 82]

By replacing it with what?

Problem -> suggestion.

Fair enough, from my point of view, i wouldn't actually replace it by anything else (i would replace the entire command menu with the radial menus to speed things up, but that's another topic). Instead, i only want it to be more precise, i.e. i want the cursor's context-sensitivity increased. U have certainly noticed that on many occasions cursor doesn't change when u aim at the ground near an AI character which makes it impossible to move ur teammate cause ur stuck with wrong commands (the game still thinks ur aiming at the AI character).

Things like moving around the other side of buildings in some sort of weird attempt to stay in formation.

Dead-on lock-on. That particular "maneuver" drives me so mad that i can't explain it. I almost crushed my keyboard on a few occasions cause the damn AI can't understand they should only follow me without wandering around the place like crazy morons. Naturally, during that stupid move they regularly get caught in enemy fire which destroys my original plan of stealthy approach.

Maybe having tight, loose, combat (default) formation options might help, and again having better path finding could improve formation 'tightness' and synchronicity in CQB/MOUT environments.

This was the first thing i thought about. I think the easiest way to solve it is through improvement of formation and making the squad's movement more synchronous (YES, even it that brings Arma's feel closer to the MW/BF/MOH spectrum). Indeed, in reality a single trooper never strays away from the squad on his own just to move around a building. Of course, i use the compact column (file) in the urban ares but the AI troops still wander around the buildings. The two possible ways to make functional MOUT/CQB are:

1. Copy-paste the system used in the best CQB game of all time: Rainbow Six Lockdown. This is probably very hard to do and i personally doubt if RV engine could provide such a smooth and synchronous control of so many factors. Lockdown used motion-captured CQB elements performed by the real SWAT or spec op operators, including the proper use of grenades.

2. Enforce the AI to follow player at all cost. I don't expect them to be so smart and automatically switch from, say, wedge to file when there isn't enough space to maintain wedge, however, they must be "smart" enough to maintain such a simple formation like file. If i already order them to use the formation appropriate to the terrain then it is unacceptable to watch individual troops break the formation and move on their own.

[-Coulum- 35]

I agree with those above that suggested a fall my exact movements formation. But I also think it would be great to have a close quarters formation as well, where soldier stick relatively close together, scan different individual sectors and do stuff like covering one another when crossing streets. While in this formation the ai would be more adequate ate clearing houses and would actively try to hide in, clear and fire from buildings. The "follow my exact movement" thing is great for player lead squads but it wouldn't help ai lead squads much. I think making this sort of urban combat formation would help ai and human squads a like.

[spotter001 82]

perhaps it's possible to make a sort of special modul. it can be turned on/off in-game when a squad enters/exits urban area respectively.

once activated the troops would switch to the more appropriate close packed order and more actively cover each others movement. in the best case scenario, they would also know what to do when entering/exiting a building.

[rye1 21]

That's a cool idea. I mentioned it ages ago but may apply here that it would be awesome to see internal house movements/formations. SWAT 4 did it right, which also links into how to command AI.

I remember the 'check the door' key - that was awesome too.

[maturin 12]

Of course, the SWAT AI wouldn't do ANYTHING without your constant micro-management. Not even follow you.

[spotter001 82]

we already micro-manage heavily but the results in urban areas are too often unsatisfactory.

[-Coulum- 35]

perhaps it's possible to make a sort of special modul. it can be turned on/off in-game when a squad enters/exits urban area respectively.

once activated the troops would switch to the more appropriate close packed order and more actively cover each others movement. in the best case scenario, they would also know what to do when entering/exiting a building.

Why a module? Why not make it a new formation. That way if your leading a squad and come to a village you can tell them to go into MOUT formation. Or if designing a mission, you can give an ai squad a waypoint in MOUT formation. or if BIS are really ambitious, They will make it so ai leaders can detect when they are near a built up area and change their formation to "MOUT". I think a module isn't quite flexible enough for this kind of thing because a squad may leave an enter urban environments throughout a mission.

[sparks50 0]

Of course, the SWAT AI wouldn't do ANYTHING without your constant micro-management. Not even follow you.

Not to mention the AI occasionally forgetting orders, "Sir, your in my spot", getting stuck, running past enemies, entering unchecked rooms to walk through them etc.

Edited April 6, 2012 by sparks50

[maturin 12]

Which isn't to say that the Swat 4 AI is bad, just that its strengths have little to no instructive value for BIS because of the diametrically opposed gameplay contexts.