How to improve the Close Quarter Combat experience in Arma 3?

[rye1 21]

Was shooting some ideas about it here http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?144196-Infantry-Combat-Boring-and-Unrealistic&p=2280681&viewfull=1#post2280681

For sure. Some good ideas.

[chortles 263]

The best we can hope for is animation that improves the type of body position they can use, i.e. leaning from a wall end would be the same as leaning from a doorway , large opening or window, we just need more variety of animation. The same goes for popping up to see what’s going on or to shoot. They do this now, well for many players they do, just needs to be animated with a variety of positions.

Now SMK gives us some great stances and positions, we don’t use it much as it conflicts with some SLX pbo’s we use, however if the SMK movement and stances could be incorporated into A3 for the ai, then that would be a great benefit to the game and to CQC.

Are you not aware that Smookie has been a BI dev for well over half a year, including performing the majority of the mo-cap acting as of April 2012? For players the animations are in for adjusting stances to conform to and shoot from cover without the use of or need for "sticky" cover -- in Arma 3 the animations already exist, so as froggyluv said it's a matter of whether or not the AI can use doorways and windows (or rather the areas surrounding the doorways and windows) as cover "effectively".

[wipman 1]

Examples?

I had in mind the first Ghost Recons waypoints/plans system as the CQB orders/actions system for the AI, the overwatch... the 'scan this sector' but have as active fire sector 'this one' etc, i don't remember wich GR it was, maybe it was even some other game... but with those waypoints system and the right anims and behave... we could improve without doubt the AI indoors.

[b00tsy 28]

The only real issue I have CQB is that AI won't stay inside houses (most of the time). If you have AI inside a house with a 'hold' order they will still move outside of the house after they are being alerted.

[chrisb 196]

Thats just too much footage for me to sift thru. And vanilla AI doesn't pop up and down from behind small walls -at least not in any sort of a realistic manner. They may go prone then stand and the like but that is hardley the same thing. Yes certain AI mods help with going to crouch but again, watch real infantry footage and it is far different. Snip...[/QUOTE]

The ai I use do this with small walls, run for the cover, then go prone, or crouch and generally swap between prone and crouch if they need to, rarely standing to fire from behind low walls. There are vid's showing them using small walls on rooftops using the same behaviour, plus a vid covering small wall use in there somewhere, I think, certainly have a few should have put some on there, added a few recently..

Yes, I should have mentioned that its ‘static’ vehicles they use for cover, not empty or used.. However with the right pbo mix they will use any vehicle that is useful, i.e. carry armaments, they will use this type of vehicle for cover as well..

Should take a look through some of the vids, that ‘happenchance’ happens every time, lots of building use vid’s.. 90% of them (ai) use the windows or doorways for positioning inside buildings, they will use crouch or stand in most cases for windows, go prone or crouch in doorways, again vid’s showing this..

Its not perfect, but without scripting, show me better for A2.

I have sifted through hundreds of video’s on youtube (testing vids) provided by other players, over the years, it’s the only way you’ll get better ai, watching then testing, adding or subtracting behaviour, testing the rear end off the ai, to obtain the best pos results.;).

I do want better for A3, but at the mo its all we have..

Edited January 27, 2013 by ChrisB
AI use of vehicle cover

[wipman 1]

Hi, the CQB waypoints system that i was thinking on was the Rainbow Six Ravenshield one or the previous game, something like that. Let's C ya

[chortles 263]

As far as controls, here's Jay Crowe weighing in with both a mention that "we're aiming to introduce a set of Controls Presets" and mentioning a keybind set he's got in Arma 3 where both prone and stand are on the Z key, crouch-toggle is on the X key*, C is used for tactical pace, with Shift now being sprint and the spacebar now "Spacebar executes context-sensitive actions, such as entering a vehicle as driver (which is probably the most 'controversial' choice of this personal set up). Other developers have different preferences and, at this point, I think it's still useful to keep an open mind."

* Z/X work as shown here; if standing then X is crouch and Z is prone, if crouching then X is stand and Z is prone, and if prone then X is crouch and Z is stand.

[accapella 1]

The AI has horrible reasoning, they will attempt to sprint around corners from behind which one of their squadmates just got shot, essentially running straight into the fire.

[Rytuklis 10]

I wonder why cant they just bring back the AI from original OFP? I recall it being a lot smarter in the first game than in ARMA or ARMA II

[ProfTournesol 956]

I wonder why cant they just bring back the AI from original OFP? I recall it being a lot smarter in the first game than in ARMA or ARMA II

Lol nope, you should try it again. I'm playing both everyday, and AI is more straightforward in OFP but certainly not more clever.

[-Coulum- 35]

I wonder why cant they just bring back the AI from original OFP? I recall it being a lot smarter in the first game than in ARMA or ARMA II

Although simplicity can be good, arma and especially OFP lack a lot in terms of ai. Just the fact that they use cover (albeit hesitantly), and can no longer see through tress and foliage is enough to make me prefer Arma 2 ai. And more on topic, flashpoint and a1 ai were very bad at using the few buildings that were enterable.

I think CQB, against ai, at least will really be lessened due to the lack of a 3d editor and the precise unit placement it brings. But maybe an alternative would be if when you click to give an unit a waypoint, or create a unit within a building the floor plan of the building would come up allowing you to place unit precisely. That way, even if the ai won't use buildings on their own accord we can still place them there easily. It would probably require more work than the 3d editor itself, but just a thought.

And I totally agree with the idea of a CQB behaviour. Ai using this behaviour would be sure to make wuick sprints from cover to cover, check their flanks and rear more, check corners before running out from them, move through buildings if they obstruct their path etc.etc. This in combination with a defend waypoint, that makes them automatically take up positions of cover (outside and if possible inside buildings) and actually hold that position would make for easily accessible CQB against the ai, even if they still suck at it.

[metalcraze 290]

All ArmA AI needs is fast reaction times. Because for some reason it takes AI a ridiculous amount of time just to turn around. And this isn't just a CQB problem, it's the general problem.

The most skilled AI should be better than most skilled player at reactions and speed. That way nobody will ever have such problems with it (you just turn down the slider as you see fit).

I wonder why cant they just bring back the AI from original OFP? I recall it being a lot smarter in the first game than in ARMA or ARMA II

You must be joking.

Unless of course by "smarter" you mean "aimbot" since inhuman precision is the only thing it has over ArmA2 AI.

Edited January 28, 2013 by metalcraze

[Kamov 1]

All ArmA AI needs is fast reaction times. Because for some reason it takes AI a ridiculous amount of time just to turn around. And this isn't just a CQB problem, it's the general problem.

The most skilled AI should be better than most skilled player at reactions and speed. That way nobody will ever have such problems with it (you just turn down the slider as you see fit).

You must be joking.

Unless of course by "smarter" you mean "aimbot" since inhuman precision is the only thing it has over ArmA2 AI.

I quite like the aimbot precision from OFP.

[Rytuklis 10]

It atleast acted like it was human. For example AI left with no waypoints would send single units to scout on player position, they come up with interesting flanking techniques and a lot of other stuff. They did simply act more naturally

[ProfTournesol 956]

It atleast acted like it was human. For example AI left with no waypoints would send single units to scout on player position, they come up with interesting flanking techniques and a lot of other stuff. They did simply act more naturally

Not in Vanilla OFP.

[instagoat 133]

It atleast acted like it was human. For example AI left with no waypoints would send single units to scout on player position, they come up with interesting flanking techniques and a lot of other stuff. They did simply act more naturally

Nope. If they had no waypoint, they would sit in the open until everybody was shot. They didn´t use cover, they sent Units singly to attack the enemy piecemeal, they didn´t flank unless given specific waypoints by the player (running randomly from left to right doesn´t count as flanking.). They didn´t suppress the enemy, and couldn´t be suppressed, and they all were snipers. (Hence the drive when JAM came out to add High Dispersion magazines to everything so you actually had firefights instead of sniper duels that lasted all of 10 seconds.)

People should take off their pink coloured glasses with regards to OFP. It was not as godly as people make it out to be. The AI in Arma 2 would eat the OFP AI alive, if they were to be pitched against each other.

[walker 0]

Hi all

On the matter of Jumping.

In reality you can jump about one and a half feet verticaly at most. That is center of mass. You lift your feet to aparently get higher incedentaly lowering you center of mass, Newton every action has an equal and oposite reaction, legs do not weigh as much as your body so less apparent down on center mass than up on legs.

I am not talking about an athlete in a vest and shorts performing a complex mass transfer in a technical method such as the fosbury flop in the athletic high jump to achieve an apparent height of 2.45 m (8.046 ft) current world record by Javier Sotomayor of Cuba.

In fact if you compare height he achieved to the height of the athlete

[2.45 m (8.046 ft)]- [Height 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in <6.417ft>)]= [0.5 m (1.629ft)

So once again you are talking around one and a half feet and that is if you are an olympic athlete using the most advanced high jumping technique on to a nice soft mat in your shorts and vest.

I am a climber and know how to move dynamicaly verticaly with both my hands and feet working together yet I can only manage around a foot and a half over vertical reach same as even the best dynamic climbers and free runners achieve the same. Using a higher holds I can gain a lot of height quickly and the untrained eye may think I have leaped to the top of a wall in one bound but in reality I have performed a sequence of chreographed moves on holds that they have not seen, NOT one jump. And to do those moves I will have practiced for hours on that particular squence.

And I would never attempt those dynamic moves while carrying things in my hands or on my back in a strange environment. Your brain prevents you. Even the stuff I practice to do requires muscle recruitment beyond the natural safety limits of the brain, that are used to stop you breaking bits.

So in reality a soldier in ful kit would perhaps jump 6 inches at most on flat ground.

What most soldiers do and are trained to do is vault walls of up to a 10 inches above reach height, after dropping most of their kit.

Other than that you will see soldiers in budy teams and as fire teams climbing walls using budy steppon assist and hoist techniques. A complicted coreographed procedure requiring training and time to perform, as well as dropping kit, so as to haul it up latter. If I want to look over a wall I take out a mirror or a camera, camera phones are great for taking a long careful recorded peak around corner.

On the matter of gettting AI to work indoors

I would have to give it a long and serious analysis of the kind and length that I would probably want paying for. I do not think most people realise how complicated that environment is.

Kind Regards walker

[Smurf 12]

What an overkill to talk about jumps.

IMO it's the horizontal vector that matters, to clear obstacles, takistani rocks (:j:) and, hopefully, trenches. Think in jumps as a larger step or something like that.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Smurf

[froggyluv 2136]

People should take off their pink coloured glasses with regards to OFP. It was not as godly as people make it out to be. The AI in Arma 2 would eat the OFP AI alive, if they were to be pitched against each other.

Nail. Meet Hammer. Just try running original Cleen Sweep mission via OFP VS. Arma 2's version. Mods or no mods -Arma2's AI is vastly superior on every level.

[rye1 21]

Why are we talking about jumping and dealing with obstacles?

So in reality a soldier in ful kit would perhaps jump 6 inches at most on flat ground.

What most soldiers do and are trained to do is vault walls of up to a 10 inches above reach height, after dropping most of their kit.

Other than that you will see soldiers in budy teams and as fire teams climbing walls using budy steppon assist and hoist techniques. A complicted coreographed procedure requiring training and time to perform, as well as dropping kit, so as to haul it up latter. If I want to look over a wall I take out a mirror or a camera, camera phones are great for taking a long careful recorded peak around corner.

[PuFu 4600]

Hi all

On the matter of Jumping.

In reality you can jump about one and a half feet verticaly at most. That is center of mass. You lift your feet to aparently get higher incedentaly lowering you center of mass, Newton every action has an equal and oposite reaction, legs do not weigh as much as your body so less apparent down on center mass than up on legs.

bla bla bla

Say what? In proper measurements that is 45 cms

I used to play basketball. A lot. In Junior Division. I am not tall by any standard. and although i was the shortest on my team, due to a lot of training, i was able to dunk, and not in training but in games(i still can 1/3). back then i was j jumping around 1m.

Case of point: spud webb

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about

I am a climber and know how to move dynamicaly verticaly with both my hands and feet working together yet I can only manage around a foot and a half over vertical reach same as even the best dynamic climbers and free runners achieve the same. Using a higher holds I can gain a lot of height quickly and the untrained eye may think I have leaped to the top of a wall in one bound but in reality I have performed a sequence of chreographed moves on holds that they have not seen, NOT one jump. And to do those moves I will have practiced for hours on that particular squence.

Work on calves and thighs then

So in reality a soldier in ful kit would perhaps jump 6 inches at most on flat ground.

What most soldiers do and are trained to do is vault walls of up to a 10 inches above reach height, after dropping most of their kit.

true.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Improving first person would make combat indoors a lot betterthan it is now !

[chortles 263]

Improving first person would make combat indoors a lot betterthan it is now !

I have to say that based on footage of the Gamescom 2012 build the infantry aspect for CQB definitely seemed "a lot betterthan it is now !" ;)

Tactical pace, "fps standard" mouse look/acceleration, adjustable stances and extremely low "weapon/optics bob"/"perceived recoil" -- heck, I believe that the Firing Drills "showcase" was implemented for the E3 and Gamescom builds specifically to demonstrate the extent of the change. The only change that we haven't really seen is dealing with weapon collision, but we have yet to actually see "indoors", though there were moments in some Firing Drills runs where one might think 'weapon collision'.

[sqb-sma 66]

Say what? In proper measurements that is 45 cms

I used to play basketball. A lot. In Junior Division. I am not tall by any standard. and although i was the shortest on my team, due to a lot of training, i was able to dunk, and not in training but in games(i still can 1/3). back then i was j jumping around 1m.

Case of point: spud webb

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about

Work on calves and thighs then

true.

Keep in mind he states that 45cm is "centre of mass", which is completely incorrect. Centre of mass on a person is ~120cm (assuming 6ft/180cm person). I'd say the average person can jump 60-90cm and a soldier/fit person could jump 90-120cm with extremes at either end.

Keep in mind that's VERTICAL, jumping forward from a standstill the average is probably 170cm-230cm and when running it's probably quite a bit higher, 3.3-4m.

I would love for jumping to be in the game, as it makes you feel more attached to the environment (when done right), though my greatest wish would be for stumbles if you jump and land wrong, adding an element of risk to it and discouraging jumping in combat. A more fluid player control system is my number 1 desire for Arma3.

[chortles 263]

A more fluid player control system is my number 1 desire for Arma3.

The E3/Gamescom 2012 footage makes it look like BI has already achieved this, though! :D