Ragdolling players without killing them?

[madrussian 347]

Well we do already have full set of unarmed animations, so that shouldn't be a problem. But yeah I now see your point on AI in particular losing weapons (and the AI routines necessary to get them back). It would indeed open up a whole can of worms. :)

On the other hand if they get it right, losing weapons would add so much to the game! Anyhow, I think the ragdolling live units (from blast concussions, etc) is a good start. Hope we see that in Arma3.

--------------------------------

EDIT:

Some thoughts on related "live ragdolling" middleware itself. Graphics continue to progress in leaps and bounds, but not so with animations / character dynamics. Why? To the best of my reckoning, it's lack of competition in this middleware space.

The folks at Natural Motion have held a virtual monopoly for what, two or three years now? How many developers do they license their real time motion generating software Euphoria to? Let's see, a whopping two, Rockstar and LucasArts. (Just looked it up, GTA4 and The Force Unleashed came out way back in 2008.) Add in their in-house product, Backbreaker. Don't they see how much money they could make by licensing their tech to more game devs? Maybe part of the deal is that Rockstar and LucasArts get exclusive rights to Euphoria, and through negotiating, NM can charge an arm and a leg? [Not sure if it's related somehow, but anyone ever wonder why Red Dead Redemption was never even released on PC?]

As mentioned previously in this thread, things at Wolfire are heating up with advances in their Overgrowth tech. Will they begin licensing this amazing tech as middleware to game developers? Will this put pressure on Natural Motion to license on a (more) widespread basis?

In any event, I'm really hoping these lifelike motor dynamics make it into more games in the coming months. Here's hoping the "live ragdoll" competition heats up and separately, that our beloved Arma3 is not left behind. :cool:

Edited March 22, 2012 by MadRussian

[Whirly 1]

Afaik killed AI's in A2OA are loosing their rifles but it looks a bit too weird how those rifles spin around, imo those weapons just have to drop down without this extra spin

Like this -

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[NoRailgunner 0]

Well in the last two vids the soldier imo still looks a bit too ragdollish, hope that BIS can find a way to make it look more real/natural. :)

[dmarkwick 261]

Well in the last two vids the soldier imo still looks a bit too ragdollish, hope that BIS can find a way to make it look more real/natural. :)

I'm sure it's an easy task to change some basic values :) like making the dead unit heavier, and reducing conservation of energy (rebound, bounce etc). Hopefully they'll manifest as config properties so we can tweak them ourselves :)

[batto 17]

I think it deserves more than just tweaking parameters of ragdolling. I mean... when you're unfortunate and get 5.56x45 bullet to the stomach you're not immediately dead (although you'll probably die soon) so immediate ragdoll animation looks like a background character from action movie (they die instantly in humanistic way, you know?). I wonder how will BIS solve hits you survive. In close combat in A2 PvP when enemy survive hit from M4 he just stand still and returns bullet without problem.

[froggyluv 2130]

In close combat in A2 PvP when enemy survive hit from M4 he just stand still and returns bullet without problem.

Hopefully with a multitude of 'hit' animations as well as possibility for stun/stagger/clutch/panic and possibly drop. Variety here would be huge for immersive factor as nothing quite so oft-putting and gamey as a soldier getting hit with zero reaction then putting one between your eyes cool as a cucumber.

Of course there are instances in RL where people don't react or feel gunshot due to adreneline etc... but this should only happen sporadically. Best case scenario would be body location type dice role which determines if bullet hit organ, bone, or passed clean thru but probably pretty CPU expensive.

Edited March 23, 2012 by froggyluv

[slatts 1978]

nice idea!

reminded me of this

[wipman 1]

wipman optional weapons slings might create a problem when trying to take possession of a dead soldier's weapon. It would be kind of impossible to confiscate weapons from dead enemies if they are anchored by a sling.

Hi, i don't see why to take the weapon of a dead soldier should take "too much", it should take no long than 8secs together with the bend or go on your knee to remove the sling from arround the dead soldier's body, or to look for the sling's hook and open it to take the weapon with you; what should take more... should be to take ammo or equipment from the dead soldier's body i think. It'll require various anims, maybe even the roll the dead body anim, for search on it's gear and open the door to place explosive traps on 'em or their gear... so the next person that look into that body or equipment piece, should perform a 'Search For Traps' (with anim too) before even take a single dime from the corpse, delaying the process of resupply or forcing you to risk yourself to blow up or get seriously wounded... if you look blindly for ammo or any other thing on an NME advandoned corpse in the middle of the battlefield or in the remains of a busted conboy or whatever; and all those anims and actions with the specific body (yours and his/hers) weight, taking more time if the man/woman is fatter or have more gear/equipment on the vest, the uniform or clothes... or the backpack.

So when you move a corpse rested on the tracks of a busted APC... the body falls to the ground showing the absence of life on it and making you think "mmhhaa.. the war is a bitch..." and "this isn't the BF3..." giving you the true impression that the dead bodys give when there isn't life on 'em; in that way you'll also no need the dismemberfest because this will be rude enough without show you guts 'n blood. It'll be great!!. Let's C ya

[Whirly 1]

Hopefully with a multitude of 'hit' animations as well as possibility for stun/stagger/clutch/panic and possibly drop.

They showed several 'hit' animations at E3 2011 where the AI survived the first bullet impact.

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[MrR4PT0R 1]

Arma 3 will surely benefit from live ragdolling in terms of fun and realism if it is done correctly.For example imagine rolling down a stairwell if shot in the leg or sliding/falling on slippery inclined surfaces while damage is dealt on player and on fragile or sensitive equipment (optics,launchers,binoculars....)

This combined with rope physics can result in very realistic fast roping while smashing on a nearby building wall is a possibility . A little of topic... ragdoll effects shouldnt end when the body stops moving and rests on the ground after death but still function when it is hit again from a grenade or α passing vehicle for example.

Nice thread btw... best suggetion/idea i ve seen so far :)

[Gerwazy 10]

I think any person should get ragdolled in case of every injury and bis should use their new blast wave simulation to knock down player or ai.

[Scoggs 1]

Amazing idea!

[pd3 25]

Its called inverse kinematics or IK for short, and while it is quite neat, its dynamic nature will impose much higher system requirements, so be careful what you wish for.

You can't have large scale battles (a cornerstone of the franchise) and good performance without some serious hardware if you have all these fancy dynamic physics for players and AI.

I will admit its a really cool feature, and one of the most prominent and impressive renditions of it was in a game in the arcades quite a few years back called "Crisis Zone".

It was a light gun game, and you basically had a UMP/MP5 looking hybrid, which did about as much damage as a .17 caliber bullet, and thus you basically had to lead-hose your enemies to death.

This resulted in enemies dynamically stumbling and wobbling all over the place as they ran, ducked, and dodged their way about the screen as you sprayed them with bullets.

At 0:23 you can see a good example of this (video quality is crap, but all other HQ vids of this game are of the console version which seems to not have IK at all, which is extremely disappointing).

Edited July 21, 2012 by Pd3

[PuFu 4598]

have a read on what ik is please. there is no relation between it and performance

[pd3 25]

Inverse Kinematics (IK) reconstructs 3D human full-body movements in real time, and you're telling me that's somehow not going to be more cycle intensive than simple motion capture?

Say what?

[kilroy the nerd 14]

Agreed. need ragdolls for not getting killed.

Indeed like GTA, but the way they get up seems a little too unrealistic.

You just got hit by a speeding car, that's gotta hurt. In GTA: lolololol cars, well that was funny time to get up and steal some cars.

Other examples would be: surviving a grenade blast, getting shoved (y u no melee combat in Arma), HE explosions (artillery like how the guys are getting rocked around by animations during PMC campaign of Arma 2, tanks firing HE or HEAT, etc), a bullet that doesn't penetrate your protective vest (not too heavy though, just knocking down), bounding mines (provided you survive them)...

So yes, please ragdolls and surviving. It's ridiculous in Arma 2, you might as well have crawled up onto the car's hood and rid on it like in BF1942 given the way you are pushed by a moving vehicle. Even a plane.

EDIT: Oh, and not forgetting flashbangs. Not any kind of blast, just so blinding and surprising it knocks you down.

[ArchAngelAlien 1]

If ragdoll affects are only tied to death animations I am going to be extremely sad. It's 2012 and on the brink of 2013. It's the future, and we as gamers expect our games to better their technology as time progresses with future releases.

If your goal is to make the most realistic war simulator you can, then one would assume ragdoll physics would apply to all scenarios and situations.

[Gerwazy 10]

I think bohemia interactive games are at least 2 years in the future anyway.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

From what I've seen there's ragdoll on units when they get struck by vehicles but don't die. Seeing as how you can use script to have units enter death states without dying in ArmA 2, I'd imagine you'd be able to switch units into ragdoll at any time in ArmA 3 (or maybe I'm just hoping) as well. What it would look like when they get back up though is more concerning to me. It might just be an instant transition to prone or something, though it would be cool if there were some kind of interpolation.

[Timnos 1]

What it would look like when they get back up though is more concerning to me. It might just be an instant transition to prone or something, though it would be cool if there were some kind of interpolation.

I agree this would be totally awesome but it would be almost impossible for BIS to impliment. One troublesome issue is that the ragdolled units always drop their weapons, another problem is that there's a almost infinite amount of positions ragdolled units could end up in, for example at E3 2011 one ragdolled unit ended up with it's upper body dangling over the side of a rooftop, another unit that was standing on a roof was shot and fell onto a balcony fence, then rolled off the fence into a awkward position in a corner of the balcony fence.

[maddogx 13]

I agree this would be totally awesome but it would be almost impossible for BIS to impliment. One troublesome issue is that the ragdolled units always drop their weapons, another problem is that there's a almost infinite amount of positions ragdolled units could end up in, for example at E3 2011 one ragdolled unit ended up with it's upper body dangling over the side of a rooftop, another unit that was standing on a roof was shot and fell onto a balcony fence, then rolled off the fence into a awkward position in a corner of the balcony fence.

Getting out of those positions in a realistic looking way would probably require some pretty nifty procedurally generated animations. Would be awesome if they could pull it off, but if anything I expect there will be some kind of simple (and usually weird looking) interpolation to a prone anim.

[Madeon 6]

I am posting a video the Bohemia Interactive developers can use for reference, it shows the concussive effects a hand grenade has on the human body. Thankfully nobody was seriously injured in this incident, it happened during the filming of a movie scene in Russia. The grenade was supposed to detonate below the waters surface.

MepwKAIrEiI

[TheMike 1]

This is a fantastic idea! I was actually hoping for this since I've heard of the implementation of ragdoll physics, really hope BI can pull it off correctly to still look realistic :) Great suggestion though my friend. :)

[Cookieeater 10]

It doesn't seem that hard, a lot of games involving ragdolled characters have two animations for getting up. One of them is when the back is facing the floor, and when the front is facing the floor. BIS can just mocap two animations, front and back, and then check which one to activate by determining the angle the torso is at when the body is at rest. Afterwards the ragdoll can interpolate it's bones to the animation.

[Smurf 12]

Can´t be THAT hard to do. Ever played this?

96kb, quite funny to play with another person. http://sumotori-dreams.en.softonic.com/