They better have female soldiers...

[scrim 1]

What does it matter what people in the infantry position think? Women ARE going to be in those positions now in the US Army as early as 2014. So it doesn't really matter what any specific person of a specific MOS thinks. Its going to happen. The real question at this point should be "Is it worth making other parts of the game suffer just to incorporate it"

See, this is the sort of thinking that illustrates why this is a bad move; What does it matter what the people who actually know something about this, and will take the hit when it goes avry think?

[nodunit 397]

It was reopened because of some news that was posted IIRC but I don't recall what that was anymore.

Perhaps then the thread should be closed, it's only repeated the same cycle a dozen times over, and the arguement between realists is never going to end.

If the thread has no sway over BI as you say then I perhaps it has long since outlived its purpose.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

What does it matter what people in the infantry position think? Women ARE going to be in those positions now in the US Army as early as 2014. So it doesn't really matter what any specific person of a specific MOS thinks. Its going to happen. The real question at this point should be "Is it worth making other parts of the game suffer just to incorporate it"

Not that your are actualy making it, but I dont entirely agree with the assumption that 'other parts of the game will suffer just to incorporate it'. At the end of the day adding females is something that only BIS can do, if they dont, I think the game as a platform will be poorer for the lost imersion and story/mission possibilities. Vehicles and weopons can be added at anytime by BIS or the community, there will be no shortage. But the question of resources as a whole is something only BIS can manage, in other words, what will be will be.

Perhaps then the thread should be closed, it's only repeated the same cycle a dozen times over, and the arguement between realists is never going to end.

If the thread has no sway over BI as you say then I perhaps it has long since outlived its purpose.

Your right, but does that risk spawning new threads? Maybe better to have just the one to be ignored, or read at your own peril.

[SWAT_BigBear 0]

Plus wasn't the reason they werent allowed to hold guns in ArmA 2 is because they were afraid of people doing horrible things to women in the game and drawing negative attention?

It would be abused.. yes!

Some off the replies in this thread are to silly.

It's kind of funny how some just want to fondle women in a game.

[TFM_Callas 1]

If women aren't made into the game, then I think that really isn't fair. Put them in or you are basically being biased to half the world.

[Harzach 2517]

At the end of the day adding females is something that only BIS can do, if they dont, I think the game as a platform will be poorer for the lost imersion and story/mission possibilities.

Absolutely this. Most of the people speaking against the inclusion of females in Arma are stuck on the notion that Arma is only for simulating organized military scenarios. This is short-sighted and in direct contradiction to Arma's stated nature as a sandbox.

There are plenty of females actively fighting in militia forces today. See: Syria.

[Dark6-6 10]

The question then is will they have lower stats to compensate for the smaller hitbox? Less speed carrying capacity and stamina seems reasonable.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[zimms 22]

Female soldiers are too much work (skeleton, animations, ...) for almost no gain. We will sooner see fully modeled tank interiors than female models.

[Ash712 1]

Female soldiers are too much work (skeleton, animations, ...) for almost no gain. We will sooner see fully modeled tank interiors than female models.

^Not really much work as you think, and the gain here is "equality" for all users/players...no matter if one is a minority...

Simply modify/use the existing "Female" civ model from ArmA 3, ArmA 2, or DayZ. :p

You can even see that BI has already made/teased a "Female" character with animations (notice her walk animation at the end looks different).

Female models already exist :

ArmA 3 female model as a civ here :

DayZ female :

ArmA 2 female soldier mod :

Edited June 25, 2013 by Ash712

[KorroBravin 1]

^Not really much work as you think, and the gain here is "equality" for all users/players...no matter if one is a minority...

Simply modify/use the existing "Female" civ model from ArmA 3, ArmA 2, or DayZ. :p

You can even see that BI has already made/teased a "Female" character with animations (notice her walk animation at the end looks different).

Female models already exist :

ArmA 3 female model as a civ here :

DayZ female :

ArmA 2 female soldier mod :

It looks like the running animation in the A3 female civ is nearly identical to the male, which means they may be on the same skeleton (male and female) all that would be required is remodeling all of the outfits and gear to match up with the female body. Now that might seem like a casual statement, but to do that and have it look good will take quite a bit of time to accomplish, then to add in all of the new config stuff to make sure male players don't appear with female clothes.

Though one way to reshape all of the bodies in a rather lazy way would be to set up some basic general shape system that deforms the meshes to match up with the general form (IE have a morph target from male to female shape in 3ds MAX and then basically use the general shape as a soft selection for the actual mesh, and apply the morph, if that makes sense) which basically automates the whole process. The animations arn't really that big of a deal, as the DayZ female char uses the male soldier animations from Arma2, and it looks just fine. (Actually, I should port the DayZ female to A3 with all in arma and see how it looks...)

But I agree that more variety in equipment, arsenal, and vehicles should be a bigger priority.

[dm 9]

^Not really much work as you think, and the gain here is "equality" for all users/players...no matter if one is a minority...

Simply modify/use the existing "Female" civ model from ArmA 3, ArmA 2, or DayZ. :p

You can even see that BI has already made/teased a "Female" character with animations (notice her walk animation at the end looks different).

This is just pure bullshit. It is VASTLY more work than you think it is.

Porting from DayZ is out of the question, because they use a completely different skeleton and animation set (as mentioned by Dean in one of his 54684646464 interviews.

Porting from A2 is pointless, as the female animations lack the relevant weapon/combat animations (which is why they are unable to hold weapons).

I would imagine the A3 female was exactly the same - just movement animations, no weapon/combat anims.

On top of that, you have to:

* develop systems to allow for the different skeletons/animation sets to be used in cargo anims for vehicles (you cant use the male anims for an altered female skeleton - as the A2 skeleton was - as it will cause treeple)

* develop systems to allow for the different skeletons/animation sets to be used for getin/out anims for vehicles (you cant use the male anims for an altered female skeleton - as the A2 skeleton was - as it will cause treeple)

* develop systems to allow for the different skeletons/animation sets to be used for the weapon IK/reloading animations (you cant use the male anims for an altered female skeleton - as the A2 skeleton was - as it will cause treeple)

* create duplicates of ALL trouser, shirt, vest equipment models - you cant use the male skinning, and even if you could, the smaller female model would not fit well with the larger male clothes.

* probably other things that I have not even thought about...

Adding females that are not simple female heads slapped on the male body is a fuckload more effort than any of you have even thought about. And this is why proper females are pretty much not going to happen in A3. You might, if you're lucky, get the the previously mentioned female heads on male bodytypes. But no doubt people will complain about that too...

[dmarkwick 261]

You might, if you're lucky, get the the previously mentioned female heads on male bodytypes.

Head is all any of us want. And yes we'll be lucky to get it.

[SWAT_BigBear 0]

Head is all any of us want. And yes we'll be lucky to get it.

lol, ^^ this is what I meant about being "abused"! :)

[motorizer 12]

This is just pure bullshit. It is VASTLY more work than you think it is.

Porting from DayZ is out of the question, because they use a completely different skeleton and animation set (as mentioned by Dean in one of his 54684646464 interviews.

Porting from A2 is pointless, as the female animations lack the relevant weapon/combat animations (which is why they are unable to hold weapons).

I would imagine the A3 female was exactly the same - just movement animations, no weapon/combat anims.

On top of that, you have to:

* develop systems to allow for the different skeletons/animation sets to be used in cargo anims for vehicles (you cant use the male anims for an altered female skeleton - as the A2 skeleton was - as it will cause treeple)

* develop systems to allow for the different skeletons/animation sets to be used for getin/out anims for vehicles (you cant use the male anims for an altered female skeleton - as the A2 skeleton was - as it will cause treeple)

* develop systems to allow for the different skeletons/animation sets to be used for the weapon IK/reloading animations (you cant use the male anims for an altered female skeleton - as the A2 skeleton was - as it will cause treeple)

* create duplicates of ALL trouser, shirt, vest equipment models - you cant use the male skinning, and even if you could, the smaller female model would not fit well with the larger male clothes.

* probably other things that I have not even thought about...

Adding females that are not simple female heads slapped on the male body is a fuckload more effort than any of you have even thought about. And this is why proper females are pretty much not going to happen in A3. You might, if you're lucky, get the the previously mentioned female heads on male bodytypes. But no doubt people will complain about that too...

Well it's a good thing they're skilled professionals then and, more than capable of doing it. My job is very different to 3d modelling (though with some similar elements) but I can make things quite quickly that would take less experienced people weeks, so I don't really buy peoples speculation about how hard it is. Especially as they have already done it once for males.

I will accept that as a reason from the dev team themselves, or someone with genuine inside knowledge.

plus we don't know how much of what is already done can be used...hell they might even be finished.

Not every item necessarily needs to be re modelled either, just stuff women would realistically use, modders can do special forces gear if they want it, the game doesn't need morphing RPG clothing like fallout, there could be a simple "it doesn't fit" message, after all people don't generally wear the opposite sex's clothes in real life (well not in public anyway :p )

Edited June 25, 2013 by motorizer

[kocrachon 2]

In order for them to incorperate it, no matter what you think, would cause a significant delay in the game release. As is, we are now in the beta for months with stuff they are practically finished with, and just needs testing and touching up. If we were to make them add female soldiers with new skeletons, that would delay the game for over a month, because you would need new motion capping, new skeleton design, and a lot of testing. We already saw the male body do all sorts of weird shit in the beta. Such as heads twisting weird and arms bending the wrong way. If we add female soldier it will require a lot of testing and development time. Not to mention that would require testing everything all over again.

If would most likely add months to the current release date if we were to expect them to add it now. And considering the game was already a year delayed, I am not sure they want to delay it much longer.

Just wait for them to add it in a patch or as DLC later.

[Sneakson 1]

In order for them to incorperate it, no matter what you think, would cause a significant delay in the game release. As is, we are now in the beta for months with stuff they are practically finished with, and just needs testing and touching up. If we were to make them add female soldiers with new skeletons, that would delay the game for over a month, because you would need new motion capping, new skeleton design, and a lot of testing. We already saw the male body do all sorts of weird shit in the beta. Such as heads twisting weird and arms bending the wrong way. If we add female soldier it will require a lot of testing and development time. Not to mention that would require testing everything all over again.

If would most likely add months to the current release date if we were to expect them to add it now. And considering the game was already a year delayed, I am not sure they want to delay it much longer.

Just wait for them to add it in a patch or as DLC later.

I call bullshit. Obsessive amounts of weapons, ground vehicles, boats, underwater vehicles, submarines, helicopters and jets but the elusiveness of a woman's skeleton is what's going to delay this game into 2014?

I wouldn't care if the game only had two helicopters if they could get women into it because weapons, vehicles and other assets can all be added comfortably later in expansion packs while requiring people to pay to play women would be outrageous.

I most certainly think women are a bigger feature than... *gasp* yet ANOTHER new helicopter?

If they're not in retail I at least want to hear an official statement on it at the time of release. Adding them in after release wouldn’t be too bad but still awkward.

[motorizer 12]

Just wait for them to add it in a patch or as DLC later.

I'd be happy with that

[xyberviri 1]

i never understand why a male player wants to use a female characters in games. seeing all those 35kg, child faced, japanese anime girls with 20kg guns and warpaint makes me realy sick...

please no female soldiers in arma series!

Uhm, Because some men dont like to stare at other men all day even if it is a virtual one....

However in a game like arma i think it stupid because as a person that has developed software before thats just more crap that is going to have to be coded for gender specific equipment, this isn't a MMO and its not planet side where there is a F2P cash shop that supports the company.

I call bullshit. Obsessive amounts of weapons, ground vehicles, boats, underwater vehicles, submarines, helicopters and jets but the elusiveness of a woman's skeleton is what's going to delay this game into 2014?

I wouldn't care if the game only had two helicopters if they could get women into it because weapons, vehicles and other assets can all be added comfortably later in expansion packs while requiring people to pay to play women would be outrageous.

I most certainly think women are a bigger feature than... *gasp* yet ANOTHER new helicopter?

If they're not in retail I at least want to hear an official statement on it at the time of release. Adding them in after release wouldn’t be too bad but still awkward.

You see to have never looked at how a model is built, or the equipment that it "wears", everything that is worn on the chest/legs would end up getting redo or else you would end up with manly built women.

[kocrachon 2]

I call bullshit. Obsessive amounts of weapons, ground vehicles, boats, underwater vehicles, submarines, helicopters and jets but the elusiveness of a woman's skeleton is what's going to delay this game into 2014?

I wouldn't care if the game only had two helicopters if they could get women into it because weapons, vehicles and other assets can all be added comfortably later in expansion packs while requiring people to pay to play women would be outrageous.

I most certainly think women are a bigger feature than... *gasp* yet ANOTHER new helicopter?

If they're not in retail I at least want to hear an official statement on it at the time of release. Adding them in after release wouldn’t be too bad but still awkward.

What is this game like a Barbie doll house game to you? You seem to care more about a GENDER being added in a war game, rather than the weapons that are a real part of the war? Each vehicle and gun handles and does something different. Adding females to the game will not as much gameplay variance as these vehicles and guns do. Gender adds story and immersion, and is ALSO something that can be added later. And I would feel safe to say most ArmA 3 gamers would rather have more guns and vehicles with females added later, than vice versa.,

[fujix 11]

I call bullshit. Obsessive amounts of weapons, ground vehicles, boats, underwater vehicles, submarines, helicopters and jets but the elusiveness of a woman's skeleton is what's going to delay this game into 2014?

I wouldn't care if the game only had two helicopters if they could get women into it because weapons, vehicles and other assets can all be added comfortably later in expansion packs while requiring people to pay to play women would be outrageous.

I most certainly think women are a bigger feature than... *gasp* yet ANOTHER new helicopter?

If they're not in retail I at least want to hear an official statement on it at the time of release. Adding them in after release wouldn’t be too bad but still awkward.

So you want the devs to skip features so you we can have girls in Arma? Who are you trying to impress? Gf/wife not giving you enough love?

[Dark6-6 10]

Try to be civil. Mods are handing out infractions for comments that don't add to the discussion.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[pathetic_berserker 4]

What is this game like a Barbie doll house game to you? You seem to care more about a GENDER being added in a war game, rather than the weapons that are a real part of the war? Each vehicle and gun handles and does something different. Adding females to the game will not as much gameplay variance as these vehicles and guns do. Gender adds story and immersion, and is ALSO something that can be added later. And I would feel safe to say most ArmA 3 gamers would rather have more guns and vehicles with females added later, than vice versa.,

Your probably right , but that only bolsters the claim that the ArmA franchise is being dumbed down. I dont see that the guns and vehicles add much variance in gameplay at all. At least not enough to take overiding preecedence over functioning females. Adapting to the small differences in weapons isn't rocket science, as long as they kill its all good. And weapons and vehicles is something BIS doesn't even have to do. As whatever BIS adds will be declared not good enough and replicated half a dozen times by the community. What I do see the various weapons adding is a level of imersion. Same as functioning females would. But what the toys cant add is a reason or story to all the killing and destruction. While having females means you can build up pictures of communities, and connections to family, and motivations etc,etc. As it stands the ArmA franchise has gone backwards each iteration on story telling since OFP and maybe now in danger of trying too hard to be a tweak on Battlefield numero infinitum, minus the bling and spectacle of a cut scene driven SP campaign. Not a game I personaly want to play.

Also I dont buy the its too much work line that keeps springing up, sure its a lot of work and probably the most valid reason to not add females, but its certainly not so much work as to throw your hands it air as say it can't be done. Its not like BIS would be breaking new gaming world ground here. But like I've said before BIS are the only ones who know thier true resource levels so speculating on it is really at the fringes of the topic and adds very little. So sure add it later if they have to.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Pathetic_Berserker

[Sneakson 1]

What is this game like a Barbie doll house game to you? You seem to care more about a GENDER being added in a war game, rather than the weapons that are a real part of the war? Each vehicle and gun handles and does something different. Adding females to the game will not as much gameplay variance as these vehicles and guns do. Gender adds story and immersion, and is ALSO something that can be added later. And I would feel safe to say most ArmA 3 gamers would rather have more guns and vehicles with females added later, than vice versa.,

Won't even read your misogynic bullcrap, lost me at Barbie doll.

So you want the devs to skip features so you we can have girls in Arma? Who are you trying to impress? Gf/wife not giving you enough love?

Yes, I want them to skip other features so they can include the feature of women.

[gunso 10]

someone wanting a female skeleton model over other features?

you are planning something perverted aren't you

[max power 21]

Well, despite some quite thoughtful posts, I think this thread has contributed to everyone's unhappiness for long enough again.

Thank you to the people who kept their posts on topic and expressed themselves without malice.