Stealth Kills?

[Provac 0]

I have no clue how the vision for AI works as of A2 but I think the AI awareness needs to be tweaked a lot.

By taking examples from other games with heavy stealth elements put into it like Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid guards have a set viewing angle and can react to noise etc.

How about setting up proper viewing angles in A3. If you move silently around these viewing angles you are undetected. If you make to much sound you will be heard and the soldier will turn around to investigate the noise (how they do this should try to be original instead of just going to noise and look stupid, maybe make soldiers more suspicious when something actually happens around them that is not in their natural space.)

This way you have basically inserted stealth elements into your game without needing to think about it anymore (at least too much).

So in short add a better awareness system where soldiers have more realistic awareness. Make this awareness be affected by night, day, weather etc.

I know the Arma series has some kind of range system for awareness because if you do missions at night you can sneak around somewhat. During they day it is possible to a certain extent too. It just seems that range is a factor and what stance you are in that affects if they spot you or not. And not so much direction of facing.

I don't know though, but if I would implement a system for awareness I would go for tested methods that works in other games and just use that. No reason to try to reinvent the wheel when you have methods that already works really well in other franchises.

[metalcraze 290]

@Rye:

People want it hollywoodish. In that read it's clearly stated that bayonets were utilized during generic field war and only as a last resort weapon. You need a really special set of circumstances to get close to the enemy there. Not stealthy enough eh?

People here want hollywoodish stealth. I.e. imbecile AI that can't hear a heavy soldier approaching him from behind and die from a single knife stab without making any noise. And for that to happen with every soldier.

They don't want it realistic at all. Why? Read all those complaints - I fire from a silenced M4 why do enemies hear me from 30m?! Bawww. Silencers don't make rifles soundless.

Again if a bunch of specops could wipe out whole enemy bases silently that's how wars would've been fought.

By taking examples from other games with heavy stealth elements put into it like Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid guards have a set viewing angle and can react to noise etc.

You do realise that SC and MGS have nothing in common with reality which includes view angles and hearing?

How about setting up proper viewing angles in A3. If you move silently around these viewing angles you are undetected. If you make to much sound you will be heard and the soldier will turn around to investigate the noise (how they do this should try to be original instead of just going to noise and look stupid, maybe make soldiers more suspicious when something actually happens around them that is not in their natural space.)

And that's exactly how it happens in ArmA.

Edited October 21, 2011 by metalcraze

[rye1 22]

Then what would your definition of realistic be in order for melee kills to be implemented? And don't you ever consider one circumstance where it would happen in a stealth context?

[metalcraze 290]

If by some miracle you can get to the enemy without him noticing it (btw why do people always cry about AI? Human players will notice you even faster) and have no time to ready your gun to shoot him you can stab at him until he dies. Obviously stealth is not an option.

The chance of you getting so close is really small so BIS shouldn't bother.

And don't you ever consider one circumstance where it would happen in a stealth context?

If an enemy will be all by himself, not armed with a gun he can pull a trigger on then why not? Except what's the point? Just shoot him since there's nobody around anyway.

A headshot is much more effective than a knife stabbing which inflicts pain and makes fingers twitch on a trigger.

If someone wants to feel like a cool specop that can kill people with a single keypress - why did he pick ArmA instead of BF in the first place?

Edited October 21, 2011 by metalcraze

[Militant1006 11]

Melee makes sense to include into the game, not so much for stealthy takedowns, but it is a fundamental part of warfare, before they invented guns and other ranged weapons, melee was a decisive way to engage your enemy, and a milsim that does not include the very basics is missing something.

In CQC there are a couple of things that a knife does better than a gun:

- If you can move past the barrel without it firing into you, they cannot shoot you while you stab them.

- A knife is almost impossible to block, someone swinging a blade violently at close range cannot be fended off, whereas it is possible to push the barrel of a gun to the side or get past its barrel length.

Knives are definitely not the 1 stab kill weapons that people are taught to believe they are, but they can still be very effective, I don't know how stealthy they would be in combat, since I, like 99.99999999% of the Earth's population have never crept up on someone and stabbed them without knowing.

Besides this, there is also the bayonet, without going into too much detail, it is an incredible psychological weapon, and can be more decisive than using a firearm.

Although Melee weapons are not used too often in combat, they are still a fundamental, and deserve to exist, it is like sidearms, although they are incredibly rarely used instead of a full length firearm, they are still in the game, obviously they were much easier to add, but there is still a point there.

[Provac 0]

@Metalcraze

Of course, I would hope I am not a total retard. Considering human view angle is much wider than perceived in those games. But the way it is implemented is not stupid nor is it bad. Taking the example and tweaking it would create a more realistic awareness interface.

If one wants to be picky about every single realistic or real life counter part then you would never have a viable game to present, there are too many individual factors like some are more aware than others, some have better sight and hearing etc. if you want to account for every single little thing it wont be a game anymore. You are not playing a war simulator, you are playing a game, using methods that works well tweaking them to your preferences is better than implementing systems that don't work well. Your objective is to create well functioning representations that comes close to realistic but keeping it fun, engaging and interesting.

At least that is my personal opinion, and I don't necessarily drag 100% accuracy and reality into it every time because its just not viable. None of Bohemias games has never been a close to a perfect representation of reality even though its based on realism.

As I also stated I do not know how the current system in arma works 100% as I have not yet seen any proper documentation on how it is implemented. I'm basing my comments on experiences with the engine and its AI. And sneaking around is not that difficult if you are properly trained to do so. Spec ops can be right under your nose and you wouldn't even know, and I am talking from experience not just grabbing that from thin air. Its amazing what they learn when it comes to hiding their presence, how do you think special surveillance teams manage to go deep behind enemy lines and come back and as far as the enemy knows they were never there.

To put it into perspective, a special forces unit under training had a task for a certain period of time they had to stay within a certain meter radius of a house. The house contained soldiers that went out on patrols. The result was that the unit was never found, as if they were not there. But they had detailed reports about sleeping habits, what the officers ate and was even inside the house from time to time to report on various things. Battlefield ghosts is not unrealistic or Hollywood. And the reason you don't fight wars like that is because it takes several millions to train and develop one spec ops soldier. And they are designed to operate in small teams. Wars in themselves is a show of force, and you need big armies for that which makes use of special forces of today not very viable for these large scale operations. You can't occupy and take over a country with spec ops, that's not in their design. Although nowadays they have been put into more infantry based use.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Provac

[metalcraze 290]

Of course simulating reality in the game 100% is not possible. However giving a free pass to knife rambos is the extreme opposite.

if you want to account for every single little thing it wont be a game anymore.

Actually with ACE mod ArmA becomes more of a game than ever before. And ACE does nothing but making it even closer to reality.

[Provac 0]

Yes I agree, I don't want the ability to run around knifing everyone. I'm talking more about the element of being able to go around undetected even in close proximity. I know its somewhat possible already but nowhere near as well implemented as it can be.

When it comes to mods adding realism, yes they add more immersion to the game making it better for us that like more realism I agree again. But its far from making it real because its still limited somewhat by the foundation that the game is built upon. Buts its a big addition to the game making it better.

The odd knife kill of a single lone soldier I wouldn't mind having, but taking out a base just sneaking around doing knife kills is unrealistic because someone would eventually notice that there is a lot less guards around. But taking out 1 or 2 to make an opening to plant a bomb or something unnoticed shouldn't be to unrealistic.

[dragon01 903]

Awesome!

Indeed. As you can hear, the only sound is the "ding" of the bullet hitting the target. You don't hear that with normal guns. I've heard about Russian semi-auto silenced pistol, but in that one, you'd still hear the action cycling (which is why the Welrod is manually operated). There's also a silenced version of Sten SMG, on which the loudest sound was made by the action.

The odd knife kill of a single lone soldier I wouldn't mind having, but taking out a base just sneaking around doing knife kills is unrealistic because someone would eventually notice that there is a lot less guards around. But taking out 1 or 2 to make an opening to plant a bomb or something unnoticed shouldn't be to unrealistic.

Exactly what I was talking about. Regarding complaints about heavy gear making noise, a specop sneaking up to somebody wouldn't wear as much as an MG gunner, who shouldn't be able to sneak around as easily (carrying MG belts, in particular, should ruin stealth, since they make a lot of noise. Same thing with loose bullets). Quick, silent kill with a knife is possible: Sneak up to somebody from behind, cover his mouth with one hand and jab the knife into his neck at the side, then push it forward, rupturing the throat. If nobody else is close, this should dispose of a lone sentry and if you hide the body, it shouldn't alert the guards too quickly, or even send them away on a search for the sentry. It could be used for making an opening in order to climb the fence, plant a bomb or steal something. Or, if you're taking down a small camp, you could eliminate the only sentry and kill the rest in their sleep. (if you're good enough, that is, such sentry would be more difficult to sneak up to). You couldn't take out the base like that, you'd get easily spotted and shot after relatively short time.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Guards are in contact with each other to prevent such "left-alone" situations. Its more likely that soldiers are going to operate remote weapon systems (with sensors, cameras) to guard specific areas, places, vehicles etc. In return guarding will be left at the gates and in few other areas in company with dogs.

Just think about securing a important area/place - would you send only 2 or 3 guards to protect it? Do you really think that your opponent isn't clever enough to figure out obvious attack and breeching points/routes aswell using special tactics or forces?? ;)

[Provac 0]

Guards are in contact with each other to prevent such "left-alone" situations. Its more likely that soldiers are going to operate remote weapon systems (with sensors, cameras) to guard specific areas, places, vehicles etc. In return guarding will be left at the gates and in few other areas in company with dogs.

Just think about securing a important area/place - would you send only 2 or 3 guards to protect it? Do you really think that your opponent isn't clever enough to figure out obvious attack and breeching points/routes aswell using special tactics or forces?? ;)

Ive been posted on guard duty before specifically for bases and base like areas and you would be surprised about this.

Each post is usually manned by one person so one being killed silently wouldn't alert the base for at least a little while. Normally you have roll calls so to say in certain intervals or there is a patrol going from section to section making sure everyone is where they should be. But time varies a lot.

Usually guard spots only have 1 person and the patrols going their rounds to each spot has 2. Its about how many people you have available, because soldiers have to sleep too so you can't have everyone guard 24/7.

That being said a breach would eventually always be discovered, but sometimes its just too late. If the enemy is proficient they are long gone by the time you find out, and good operators scout their targets for a long time before commencing their tasks to learn guard patterns etc.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Provac

[rye1 22]

single keypress

Give me another way of doing it then. You reload with one click, get in a vehicle with one click.

What would you rather have? A full on system? No. Too complex and too long to make. Just allowing someone to perform an action when that close without the use of firearms doesn't need to be 1,000 clicks minigame.

giving a free pass to knife rambos is the extreme opposite.

You said it would be used minimally, so how would it affect you?

It's not COD where you could pull a knife out of mid-air within a millisecond and hit your opponent in the shin to kill them.

I don't agree that it should be applicable most of the time nor work sometimes. So, what's your problem? Allow people to use it when applicable for them, you don't have to use it! Same with the enemy uniform feature.

[Beagle 684]

Give me another way of doing it then. You reload with one click, get in a vehicle with one click.

once upon a time there was a game called "Drakan" where you controlled different combos by pressing fast combinations of arrow and shift keys...worked well you simply speciallized in one or two.

[Darkguerilla 10]

When I think of stealth combat in relation to knives. I don't think of stabbing the throat or torso. I'm thinking back of the neck to separate the spinal cord from the brain. This eliminates the enemy's ability to pull on a trigger or move. A stab to the front of the throat to sever the carotid arteries and wind pipe would be not only a slow death, but also a very noisy one as the escaping air combined with the large amount of blood would make very ghastly bubbling whistling noises. Torso stabs would do about the same thing. Now back on track with a spinal column stab, in combination with a grab around the mouth area to keep the enemy's jaw shut as well as to hold onto him and ease him down to the ground where you can pull your knife out and go for a second blow or two to finish him off. This gives the opportunity to reduce the noise of such a brutal attack. Now say the player did succeed in taking down the enemy and stabbed him in the spinal column and disabled him, but just so happens another patrol comes by and spots him before he can finish his work, I would like to think this give the patrol two available options 1. Kill him immediately to keep him from finishing off their friend or 2. Tell him to back away, drop the knife, and surrender immediately where they can then torture him. Just the fact that the player has been spotted by one enemy and that enemy has started making noise will alert the whole base through chain reaction and thus draw attention to where the player is and thus more infantry will be coming down on his position to take him captive. This would require some smart AI. Also would require the player to play smart and watch for patrol patterns instead of just walking into the base and knifing everyone as there would be X% chance of being discovered.

[rye1 22]

but also a very noisy one as the escaping air combined with the large amount of blood would make very ghastly bubbling whistling noises.

?

Could say that for when animals get their throat slit, but I haven't heard of this. Source? Choking on your own blood (suffocation) or bleeding out happens. One of two things.

[dragon01 903]

I don't think it'd be a problem. Cutting the arteries and wind pipe by stabbing a person in the neck, then pushing the knife out is (for what I've heard) a quite silent way to get rid of a guard (I've seen it referred to as a "Marine sentry removal technique").

[smookie 11]

Recent posts are really disturbing :). As per stealth kills, for the time being my best guess would be NGH.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Smookie

[Tom1 10]

A simple action to silently kill someone is fine, just like a simple action to place a satchel is fine.

Ofcourse placing a satchel in ACE is more fun with the improved UI, but end of the day it is the same feature.

Really, slitting someone's throat from behind is one animation, and all that has to be scripted is the death of the person infront getting stabbed. Not hard, and it will mean that close quater AI detection and behaviour will have to be reworked and be made more realistic, which is great.

Current AI are cheaters in CQB. I don't care how loud my machine gun belt is, when I am 20 metres away and there are guns going off all around, a soldier looking the other way shooting his weapon should not just stand up, turn around, and shoot me, after I have been quiet as a mouse and haven't fired my gun or spoken a word.

Improved AI to allow for stealth killing will also make MOUT firefights much more realistic and fun. I don't see the point of every builidng on lemnos being enterable if the CQB AI are going to be just as shit as they are in arma 2.

Don't get me wrong, the AI in arma games are 100 times better than any other game, I mean the AI only cheat in some situations, unlike games like OFP:DR where the AI are constabntly cheating, but are reeeeeeeaaaaally stupid to make it un obvious.

Please BIS, the AI is great, but the cheating (detecting really close units through walls and without hearing them) AI ruin the CQB, which is still a massive part of modern combat. I believe, after reading up on how the AI detect other units, that it would be possible to perfect the AI's realism in CQB with a few tweaks.

[dragon01 903]

Actually, ArmA AI is one of the weak points of the game for me. It could use a lot of improvement, especially regarding driving and flying. It also either cheats or acts stupidly. They have inhuman accuracy, recoil control, eyes around their heads and perfect hearing through walls or cannon fire. On the other hand, they can crash two attack helos into each other during an attack run or drive a tank off a cliff if ordered to go in the completely opposite direction. There's a lot of room for improvements, because I've seen better AIs, for example in Crysis. For example, they can throw grenades without killing half of their own squad, coordinate their actions with their teammates, can use mounted weapons even if the original gunner is killed and will leave the weapon if you attempt to flank it (this one is especially bad in ArmA, where you can walk up to an MG gunner from behind and he will just sit there, instead of getting up and fighting).

[HyperU2 11]

?

Could say that for when animals get their throat slit, but I haven't heard of this. Source? Choking on your own blood (suffocation) or bleeding out happens. One of two things.

One of the beheading videos from Iraq featured this well, I won't share. The windpipe was actually had spasms in and out of the neck wound and squealing. It was air, not blood.

[rye1 22]

Laryngospasm? Can happen. And enough to alert someone? And alert someone how far away? The head is normally tilted forward to control the escaping air and blood, and what noise it does make.

P.s. sorry if this conversation is over the top for anyone.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Rye

[dragon01 903]

It's a reasonable discussion about how to implement stealth killing. It might be a bit gross, but nobody says SpecOps are pretty.

Anyway, I think that an experienced SpecOp can make sure that laryngospasm doesn't alert the enemy, for example by covering the severed windpipe with his hand (as he won't need to cover the mouth anymore).

BTW, I wonder what a real SF member who was trained in that would have to say about this (I hope it's not classified).

[rye1 22]

BTW, I wonder what a real SF member who was trained in that would have to say about this (I hope it's not classified).

Depends on the individual.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33752049/Green-Beret-Combat-Course-Training-the-Elite-Fighter-for-War

:D

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Recent posts are really disturbing :)

As long as you can say it with a smiley, can't be that bad? :) Anyhow, I thought it was forbidden to post images of killing on these forums. These posts are worth more than a thousand images :p

[dragon01 903]

Depends on the individual.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33752049/Green-Beret-Combat-Course-Training-the-Elite-Fighter-for-War

:D

Good find.

It seems that the technique I described is used in real world, at least by the USMC and Green Berets. It's not unlikely that it's actually a basic "stealth kill with a knife" technique used by SF forces everywhere. I think that BIS should include it.