Stealth Kills?

[hund 0]

They don't die that fast, it's quite messy. Mostly they bleed out or drown/suffocate. Takes a little while.

Anyway, we can sneak up on people in A2 and whack em with a pistol, that is fine by me. No need for a more elaborate sneaky system.

[-FinLynx- 10]

Somebody said that knives aren't used and maybe thats somewhat true nowadays. But in WW2 knife was very important weapon for soldier... specially those who operated behind enemy lines. I remember one document of volunteer medics who came cross the world to help finnish in our war efforts against russians. One medic told that they drove along a road and there he saw three russians standing beside the road all freezed on their feet. They went to look and found out that all three were dead because their throats were cut open. He also told that russians still had their weapons in their holsters so the death must have been quick.

So personally I think it could be nice thing to have, but I just don't see it in Arma because of character handling and environment. I mean in Splinter Cell and Assassin's Creed it worked nicely but those games are based on that kind of actions/weapons. So I don't quite see it working smoothly in Arma 3... but I'm happily wrong about this.

[BlackAlpha 10]

the capability to continuously attack the enemy with no reloading at point blank range where firearms become almost useless or better said useless or even LOST. or have you tried to aim and fire in such a struggle?

No, I haven't, but clearly you have. Please do share your magnificent story on how to beat a gun with a knife.

... you probably wont be able to use your rifle properly or pull your gun when a fully packed armoured warrior storms the room, pulls his knife and starts attacking you at a distance where firearms are becoming useless.

Oh my, I guess that's YOU who you are talking about, isn't it? Dressed in fully kitted military gear, you ran inside a room where another armed guy was waiting for you. You didn't even bother to check the room before entering because your superior melee tactics triumph in all situations... Anyway, so you ran inside the room and there he was, the other guy, and he was already aiming at you! How dare he?! But you kept your head cool and you knew there was only one thing left to do, you hurled your M16 at him. Yes, the other guy sure didn't expect that, as the M16 hit his head! This gave you enough time to close in and have a go at him with your knife and your BARE FISTS!

if you would need a kind of reference you pointing at, you could use your knifetip. once you get used to the animations and movement to hit properly... just a question of training. same like firing weapons.

i guess many guys would shit their pants if they also would have to learn melee combat in a game to be a pwner. they cant unrealistically shoot everbody from every situation anymore because there is a nice counter for cqb: melee.

Yes, I've played COD as well. I know exactly what you are talking about. But keep in mind that the other guys here haven't played COD and have no clue how knives work in real life.

the next point i want to bring in is, that most of the people neither here have an idea of what melee combat means or firefighting.

its nice to make suggestions but to sell them as 100% truth is kind of silly.

That's some pretty good advice you gave there!

[Masterfragg 10]

Holy hell...I had almost forgotten how elitist most of you people are here.

And I'm an Operation Flashpoint: CWC player I've been coming here years.

Just because a console game uses a certain idea doesn't mean you should bloody black list it.

If you wanted a REALISTIC game in true form then the possiblity for knife kills would be a must!

What sort of idiot starts screaming "OH NOES ITLL BE CODZ ALL OVERS"...

You must be a complete nitwit if you believe that knives are unused in warfare.

Years of solvent abuse...Takes away a lot of IQ points and I can see many here that have been sniffing the bostik...

If they implement a decent object destruction system are you all going to scream "OH NOES ITLL BE BFBC2 ALL OVERS"? No...You'll claim that it's fantastic...Which it would be as it's REALISTIC...

If you people really want a realistic simulation then yes, knife kills are a must. But they would have to be done properly.

No QTE bollocks and the animation would have to be interruptable if shot etc rather than just continue on the animation like most Arma animations happen.

Basically it would have to be done just right otherwise it would be very annoying. Plus it would need to be scripted purely for SP/Coop I think as it really would have no use within most MP scenarios.

Unless it's an Attack & Defend situ but that'd be sketchy.

Thinking about it, this is probably something the modding community could do for Arma 2/OA isn't it?

Maybe it's time to break out the tools again /wanders off on a random tangent

Edited July 9, 2011 by Masterfragg

[Tinker 10]

Stab under the chin, straight into the wind pipe. Hmm, what about from the rear.

Stab in the side and twist?

Lets just stab, fuck he has armour plates, turns and head-butts you, then shoots you.

It is mind boggling as to how many different animations it would take to implicate any kind of realistic knife attack in a simulator.

:rolleyes:

[Masterfragg 10]

Stab under the chin, straight into the wind pipe. Hmm, what about from the rear.

Stab in the side and twist?

Lets just stab, fuck he has armour plates, turns and head-butts you, then shoots you.

It is mind boggling as to how many different animations it would take to implicate any kind of realistic knife attack in a simulator.

:rolleyes:

Even nowdays soldiers lack armor on the sides, a knife to the left side going upwards through the ribcage would actually kill quite swiftly.

Also militia tend to not have MASSIVE amounts of armor around.

Although you do hold a decent point.

I think you may have missed ours however. Wether it's viable or not in a certain situation is irrelevant. The option to use it in certain situations ISN'T irrelevant. If you all want realism then this is a decent start to some aspect of special operations or survival.

I mean don't get me wrong I wouldn't want a onetapkill Farcry 3 style or anything but knives are still a part of BASIC warfare wether people want to admit it or not.

Although I did chuckle at that what you said XD

[rye1 22]

1.No, I haven't, but clearly you have. Please do share your magnificent story on how to beat a gun with a knife.

2.Oh my, I guess that's YOU who you are talking about, isn't it? Dressed in fully kitted military gear, you ran inside a room where another armed guy was waiting for you. You didn't even bother to check the room before entering because your superior melee tactics triumph in all situations... Anyway, so you ran inside the room and there he was, the other guy, and he was already aiming at you! How dare he?! But you kept your head cool and you knew there was only one thing left to do, you hurled your M16 at him. Yes, the other guy sure didn't expect that, as the M16 hit his head! This gave you enough time to close in and have a go at him with your knife and your BARE FISTS!

3.Yes, I've played COD as well. I know exactly what you are talking about. But keep in mind that the other guys here haven't played COD and have no clue how knives work in real life.

1. Sorry, I didn't know we had to kill someone with a knife for this to be valid. Seriously if you want a story, read them. Open minded, not closed; I don't mind your input but I feel the only ones really trying are the ones that support it. The rest come in with negative attitudes that result in nothing but an arguement with no real pro's or con's and mention stupidity like COD; thanks again BlackAlpha. Even if the Arma community don't want it, it's good to have the discussion:- it may be able to be implemented in the future where it may work better or by a modder.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-knives-other-weapons/120006-somail-pirate-loses-knife-fight-us-navy-seal-today-dies.html

2. Basics of room clearing, closed door? How to check in the room? What do you even mean check in the room? No, there is no endoscopes or optical wands. Partner opens it, you rush in. Now what? Your weapon jams or malfunctions. You have to reload. Your weapon has been shot and considered inoperatable. You drop it. You trip on furniture. You realise it is a short room and you are face to face with the enemy when all this happens. You're doing it in the pitch black, in a cave or tunnel, sewer system or bunker.

This topic is not about knifes, it can be about anything. Can we move on... I hate replying to the same thing over and over, because people fail to read or understand. Stealth kills, yes or no or maybe because of too many factors? Poll please.

If you were in that room with me, I would hate to have you as a partner. To lose the will to live isn't a good trait especially over negative views of a weapon, you'd go for your back-up or second back-up, be it a pistol or knife; and whatever happens next because of that decision is all down to you and what the enemy does also. If you want to reply, do so with a list for me. Scenarios of which you would use a knife:- combat and non-combat, I don't care, just come up with a few and show me you at least think about it before replying just to stir it yet again with questions that have already been answered. I don't care if you do not want to see it or not but at least try think about it.

If you prefer a handgun over the knife or feel it will perform better in that scenario then your supporting hand would come up to push the enemy or keep them away from controlling the weapon and yourself. The handgun would come out the holster and turn straight onto the enemy and you would engage.

But when it comes to effective take-away techniques, the US army performed a little project conserning defense against knife attacks. The conclusion was that it was in almost every scenario near impossible to survive a massive knife attack from a crazed person at close range. You can try control the arms, control the weapon, anything but you'd normally get cut to pieces in the process.

Furthermore when looking at statistics, you will see that almost all victims from knife attacks have not been stabbed once but multiple times, some even 70 - 200 times. In combat, it would be go till the threat has gone:- leaving them no chance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV0F1q9BKME&feature=player_embedded ).

3. Please do not mention that retarded game. There is no one hit wonders or instant transition from primary or secondary to knife. If you have an imagination, use it and consider what Arma would be with it:- compare those thoughts to COD and realise it would be no where near the stupidity of that game. And if you have such a great idea of how a knife works, knife guru, then explain to us, why not? What are the negatives of this in a close combat situation and why would you personally not use one?

[BlackAlpha 10]

...

You are overanalysing my post, as my post wasn't overly serious. I was replying to someone who was stating "facts", backed up by what seemed to me as COD experience. Hence my post was not so serious.

Maybe I misunderstood, but it seems to me (what his post comes down to) that the guy clearly wants the COD stupitidy that you describe in point 3.

i guess many guys would shit their pants if they also would have to learn melee combat in a game to be a pwner. they cant unrealistically shoot everbody from every situation anymore because there is a nice counter for cqb: melee.

The knife as the ultimate weapon in CQB. That quote, combined with some other points he made, I can only imagine that as a quick one hit kill weapon from the game who's name you don't want me to mention.

Did I misunderstood him?

OK, and fair enough, I was being elitist. The guy did make some good points.

Edited July 9, 2011 by BlackAlpha

[onlyrazor 11]

How about we just ask BIS to use a (most likely clunky) CQC system that allows you to press a button and then mash keyboard keys to do hand-to-hand with enemy troops. Honestly, while it'd probably mess up the game, I'd actually like to see a module with those features. But only after everything else is patched up and worked out :p

[rye1 22]

@BlackAlpha.... MYBAD! I think it was a mix lol; I didn't understand some of the stuff he posted but some good points came up. You gotta be ready when dealing with close combat and room clearing on a daily basis, look at Iraq (urban areas like Fallujah) compared with Afghanistan:- kit, small additions, changed for role. But certainly not the ultimate weapon, I'd have to say rifle before anything; that's why it's your damn primary.

And look at Special Police units and civilian clothed units, undercover and dealing with CQB 99.9% of the time, there's always a knife at the ready. Very concealable and a last resort. But who cares, BIS won't add it so meh, and it would be buggy unless really worked on, but some games did good at it like GTA4, Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell. You can just hope that engine issues, features will be added and fixed so it could maybe be implemented easier. But, school of thought, I hope you all look at knife topics and don't jump to the conclusion of Rambo.

Image below of a set-up that would be a good use in CQB for having both secondary and back-up to it:

German SEK/MEK.

Same as above. They raided a murder suspects house.

US Navy Seals fighting in Ramadi. Close combat non-stop. Both guys to the left hand side have a back-up knife.

BIS modelled knives on the units like this. The Czech guys had it on their right hand side I think, facing down and the USMC had knives modelled. Definitely used in combat and non-combat roles.

How about we just ask BIS to use a (most likely clunky) CQC system that allows you to press a button and then mash keyboard keys to do hand-to-hand with enemy troops. Honestly, while it'd probably mess up the game, I'd actually like to see a module with those features. But only after everything else is patched up and worked out :p

I was thinking more punch the monitor... :rolleyes:.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Rye

[Slayer_SK 10]

allright, maybe i wasnt precise enough about what i meant.

no i didnt try that, but what else would you do when you get really close? i mean war is war, you never know what happens and how a situation develops. it is possible that you get into a fight where are no firearms used.

i suggested that it is clear that nobody is just cod like storming a room with a knife. but there are occasions where its possible to use the knife.

my point is, that melee is a quite complex topic in game development. i thought that from a game design point. its incredibly difficult to develop a smooth melee system. there is the question of realism, techniques, controls, damage system, physics and a lot more.

we also should imagine the possibilities with a nice melee system. the gameplay possibilities, funfactor etc.

it would strongly improve the engine capabilities.

i mean imagine a medieval arma in warfare. building a castle and slaughtering soldiers in warfare mode. or having huge siege scenarios with massive melee fighting on the walls and entrances. arrows are raining from the sky and siege towers are pushed towards the walls. ladders are climbed and the nasty mayhem begins.

all this with a nice, smooth melee simulation. i mean i would seriously die for that. i would play that game maybe more often than arma 2 with its modern warfare scenario.

by the way i am not a good fighter or anything like that but i did combat sports and i talked to many people, also read a lot in the german community for melee, combat sports, self defense, professional training and all kind of martial arts.

knifes are nasty and absolutely deadly. some people fear them even more than a gun. the reason is because many criminals use knifes and they also know how to use it.

but in a war scenario:

i mean imagine a struggle in a tight staircase like in medieval towers. i bet there are such places. imagine that you missed with your gun and the enemy is upon you with a knife or fists. the space is so tight that you are maximum 1m from an enemy when goin upwards...

in this scenario i would seriously use a knife. it would probably do it faster than pulling my pistol and trying to aim in a grabbling situation. i meant such nasty close quarter combat. this stuff happened and happens and probably will happen often again until humans become intelligent enough to live together in peace.

maybe you understand me now ;)

@ ryan

you are saying exactly that what i wanted to tell the people.

@ Alpha

i dont like it to be treaten in such an aggressive and negative way. i also dislike hearing all the time whats not possible. i want to hear solutions. i can tell you 100000 reasons why it WONT work. but right now i may have only one in my head trying to write it down.

you are right that my comment was a bit difficult to understand but i think you are definitely not helping us in any way.

this behaviours is neither going to solve the problem nor answer any questions. i would like it if you could change that and help us in our need of a proper melee system.

its quite clear that many people want it. i would estimate about 50% right now. estimating a high quality melee combat system and i bet there would be 90% people totally convinced that it was a good choice.

the only problem is that so much of other stuff has to be fixed too and the question is WHO is going to do all this? the community or bohemia?

what will be done by who?

i have the feeling like we have to be the pioneers because bohemia seems to add only the most necessary features because of the high cost in developing this stuff. we have to imagine that just creating that engine is not easy, not mentioning a game.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Slayer_SK

[ghostnineone 10]

this argument doesnt make any sense to me

if its scripted its too arcadey, if its not scripted, its too hard to implement properly/buggy/not a one hit kill

why does it matter if its a gun or a rifle butt? its going to be the same argument for both of them (shouldnt be a one hit kill/shouldnt be scripted, etc)

i personally would like to be able to stealth kill someone, as silenced weapons are not actually silent in arma or real life, including the handguns,which almost never kill in one shot if i shoot them in the head, plus modern helmets can stop an assault rifle round, so a silenced 9mm (quieter than a silenced AR) round probably wont go through, leaving you to try and shoot him in an unarmored spot and probably losing any stealth you once had and alerting everyone in a six mile radius, a throat slit/neck snap/jason bourneing his ass or a sleeper hold is going to make noise, yes, but if done properly so the person you are killing doesnt fight back it would probably make less noise than a suppressed gunshot

i dont see how one action that is scripted is instantly going to make this game too arcadey, people are going to complain either way, kevlar and trauma plates dont stop knives, but they could stop a slash,a slash in the upper torso wont do anything because of all the armor, a slash in the face wont kill someone instantly IRL, so why should it in the game, etc.

i bet people will complain about the weapon and character customization too.

besides, arma seems to be moving towards cbq and open combat seeing as all the houses are enterable in a3, which is good since its always been geared towards skirmishing in big ass fields.

IMO, if theyre going to put in a knife, they might as well have a slashing animation or slashes for each click, and then have a stealth kill when in a certain position or make it an action menu option, best of both worlds, or include the knife only for stealth kill animations and no other time.

sometimes its nice to have other options besides gun and less loud gun.

[dmarkwick 261]

Until ArmA has a more fluid/appropriate ingame UI it's probably more trouble than it's worth in any case. I have enough trouble with the predictive contextual Action Menu just doing normal, non-time critical stuff :D

[Slayer_SK 10]

thats the point. its the question how to do it.

there are several ways and also concepts to create a nice melee system.

but in my opinion noone of them satisfied my expectations to the topic melee.

the problem are the different situations which may occure. and their amount. we see that when closing a gap in the simulation we open at least one more to fix or overwork to fit in the big picture of a virtual reality.

like this one:

an armoured enemy is attacked usually in a different way than a non armoured guys.

its known that the spartans used a lot of joint breaking locks and chokes to defeat their well armoured enemies.

same is known for judo and the user the samurai. these guys always fought to bring the enemy to the ground with throwing and leaver techniques and choked their opponents to death on ground or broke their joints, stabbed with dagger into throat etc...

this is just ONE point and its even without striking. (exept knife finisher)

to make strikes also realistic we have to count in the human anatomy again and the impact of these attacks also like the movement of the body and target. means distance.

distance is again something very important in this point. the reason is because not every melee attack is same effective or used at a certain distance to the target.

and this would be the worst discussion, worse than about knifes:

which melee techniques (strikes, chokes, etc) are seriously useful in combat scenarios? which shall be implemented, which shouldnt?

the next point is complexity. to win a fight in a complex melee system you need a lot of training. firefighting is taught fast because you are always doing the same thing with your weapon: lining up sight and firing.

its also the same weapon and has the same parameters or feeling.

but imagine melee combat. there is used almost everything as a weapon. from headbutts, picked up objects (like a stone) or elbows, fingers, fists.

every of these weapons has its own properties in use and also effekt maybe even animation.

from a technical point of view this is seriously a lot of stuff to think about.

to just begin with something we should determine whats seriously necessary to create the solid basis of a melee system. if we want one...

[ProfTournesol 956]

Nice monologue(s). What's the point precisely ?

[ghostnineone 10]

i dont understand why it cant just be simple for simplicity's sake, arma does not handle complex things like that well (look at the SMK anims pack, great anims but the engine isnt built for that, they would work better if the engine was designed to have a cover system), a stealth kill system doesnt require a full blown hand to hand simulator to serve its purpose, an animation would serve just fine, as would simple knife slashes or stabs, not everything in arma is realistic, such as how a civillian or rifleman can fly and operate any vehicle in the game, the ballistics arent completely realistic, and there is no realistic helicopter flight controls, nor do jets or halo jumps require oxygen at certain heights, and i doubt arma 3s scuba system is going to be in depth as the one feint is working on, those things have all been simplified for the sake of being accessible, i dont see why a knife cant be handles the same way. Things dont need to be ultra realistic as trying to make everything as realistic as possible is not only difficult, but it also makes for a frustrating game, am i going to be screwed in arma 3 because i forgot to bring my allen wrench to tighten the screws on my weapon sight?

[Slayer_SK 10]

of course you are not going to make it 100% like in real. but there is a lot of stuff that is important when you want a fun melee system that works fine.

it would be fine if there are a few basic attacks like slash, stab and block with a good animation and colision.

a senseful damage system would also improve the playability of such a feature.

if the there is a need, it would be possible to add another attacks or moves and features based on that one. i mean people are thinking of making full conversion mods but they need a melee system there. THAT is the point i want to say all the time.

in my opinion every advanced engine should have a melee feature. this one doesnt.

[Archosaurusrev 12]

The only meleeing anyone ever does in a warzone are bayonet stabs.

SF may slit some throats but it's not entirely effective and silent like in the movies, a shot to the head is better.

[ghostnineone 10]

The only meleeing anyone ever does in a warzone are bayonet stabs.

SF may slit some throats but it's not entirely effective and silent like in the movies, a shot to the head is better.

not really...they teach combatives and MCMAP for a reason, last i checked they were getting rid of bayonet training because we never use them

[katipo66 94]

Sure, if it can be done in a convincing way, I'm all for it...

[*LK1* 10]

problem is when people hear about stealth kills their minds goes there:

c8i5LKSeJno

ps:

good old times :bounce3:

[Baff1 0]

The only meleeing anyone ever does in a warzone are bayonet stabs.

SF may slit some throats but it's not entirely effective and silent like in the movies, a shot to the head is better.

I read a nice story about the USMC in Iraq.

An Iraqui was hiding in the marshes. The Marine in the article drew his knife went in there and killed him.

I don't know how truthful the Bravo Two Zero story was either, but he uses a knife in combat in that story too.

WW2 Commando training emphasised the use of a knife as the primary weapon. Guns were considered to be the last resort.

I would think that being equiped with silencers would greatly reduce the amount of times anyone would choose to use a knife as a first choice weapon.

Gurgling to death or even screaming, is still quiet compared to a gun shot. That sort of noise could travel for miles.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Baff1

[Baskis 0]

Lakota style! haha. (Photoshopped)

[rye1 22]

That is win. Post of the day.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

like this one:

an armoured enemy is attacked usually in a different way than a non armoured guys.

its known that the spartans used a lot of joint breaking locks and chokes to defeat their well armoured enemies.

same is known for judo and the user the samurai. these guys always fought to bring the enemy to the ground with throwing and leaver techniques and choked their opponents to death on ground or broke their joints, stabbed with dagger into throat etc...

this is just ONE point and its even without striking. (exept knife finisher)

...

hmmm... there are also German and Italian manuscripts from the middle ages showing that western armies were doing this stuff as well. After all we are mechanicaly the same, so naturaly, are the solutions. But the arrival of gun powder and other killing efficiencies meant that the techniques became largely redunant and training time for most soldiers was better spent on newer weoponary. I don't mean to sound negetive about the idea, but its' worthiness is questionable unless its done with one graceful application. ie. the engine can detect that your behind the oponent and a suitable animation plays out on both combatants.