Campain quality in ARMA

[almanzo 144]

I know I've written on the topic before, and each time a new ARMA DLC or game is released, I trick myself into believing that everything will be better now... But the fact is on the contrary. ARMA II campain had a few cool features, but I dislike the overall hero factor razor team has. OA gave us the ability to play as different roles, but the unbelievable opposition was introduced in this one. BAF wasn't much better either, as the challanges you are facing are out of proportion, and now finally we have PMC... where you are supposed to kill of > 10 tanks with an anti material rifle, fight of a horde of UAVs and fend of an entire batalion along with your mates, while at the same time having made the comment "we are nothing else than a form of taxi service, we are not an army"... It makes you wan't to cry!

And again, the same flaw in PMC as in all campains (exept EW wich was brilliant in so many ways!)... The characters... The most frequent word in PMC is fuck. It seems the guys have trouble defining their masculinity or something, becouse the though guy language is just silly. It might be something 14 year olds find cool, but the average ARMA player is not 14 years old! And again, the takistanis seems like monkeys in PMC. Especially the mission where you are to scare off those people. It just sounded stupid, when they screamed and ran around. A guy waving a gun around is about the same message as shooting in the air...

Please stop giving us missions where one squad is to fend of an entire army, or two people destroying a whole tank devision. ARMA is about realism, but the campains sometimes feel less realistic than the most arcade of shooters.

What made Cold War Crisis so intense and fantastic? How bout the fact that you for the most time faced a balanced threat. You were given believable missions and believable objectives. The game encouraged you to avoid fighting when possible, and the characters was normal people. They enjoyed their time off, they didn't like putting their lives on the line, they where confused, scared, but brave. Very few people knew exactly what was going on, and it left the player wondering why the russians attacked. Hell, remember that scene from red hammer where two russian soliders is talking about how cool it will be to finally see some action, where the russian officer reacts with telling them that war is nothing to cheer about, telling them that they are naive? And what about the resistance? The guys taking to arms to defend their families? The humble, calm people and the niceness of the characters.

We like ARMA because the engine allows for missions where to think is better than to run'n'gun. The ability to plan a mission out, try out different approaches when it doesn't work out how you thought, and doing what ever you can to keep all your men alive is what made OFP so fantastic. And yes, I often did that, restarted the game if one of my soliders died... The charm of OFP is long gone, and I really, really want it back! To state my point, on my shelf I have 4 copies of OFP game of the year edition, so that I can share this fantastic story with as many as I can. It is one of the best campains I've played, and I play through it at least once a year, and have done so since it first came out... That's ten years of OFP right there...

So, how could PMC been better? I can give a few thoughts:

The mission on the airfield is one of those who I enjoyed the most. But the ambush could have been made smaller, but better thought out, making use of cover and a different angle of approach, approaching from a cluster of buildings would have been better. The chopper should also have landed, and it would have been great to flee the area by car with the VIP inside.

The mission where you take out those tanks... Have us lie on a hill, taking out ONE or maybe TWO light armored vehicles from along distance, only to disappear only seconds later. In, boom, out! The laser designator mission at the beginning of ARMA2 campain is a good example. It's nice to have missions where you are safe as well.

In addition, bring back storytelling in missions. Have some missions go WELL. Like have one contract turn out without complications, to show off the day to day life of these people. Use the opportunity to get us to know the characters. Compare this with the mission in OFP where your lieutenant wants you to come with him to pick up a truck, and your character get a chance to ask him a few questions. Or the fantastic mission where you have a small patrol in the forest, with just some minor engagements, brilliant missions to drag the player into the scenario. These are just a few elements that work. Not an entire campain of course. But please, consider it.

Rehire the guys who made CWC campain, and if they don't shape up, get rid of your creative department. There is no doubt that they are the weakest link of BI studios.

You where among the best people considering believeable campains. There is no doubt that alot of people never would have gotten into OFP if it wasn't for the campains. I found the editor and used made content thanks to the amount of fun the campains gave me. How many of those who have made content to all the games would not have been around if it wasn't for the campains? Remember that the campains present the engine. Alot of people might have missed out on the engines fantastic capabilities if it wasn't for the campains in OFP. Therefore, I hope that you'll hear my plea. I want a good, believeable campain with characters we can relate to, and while you are at it, hire some new voice actors as well...

[jonstyle 49]

I totally agree with everything you're saying. The last campaigns are generally unrealistic. The OFP campaigns were the best ones. The voice acting does'nt really bother me. But the unrealistic number of opposition does, indeed bother me to such an extent that the official campaigns make me lose interest. Also, a thing that bothers me tremendously is that the DLC mission files are coded, so that we cannot edit them to our own pleasure.

Complaining aside, this is my all time favourite game. I have been playing since the OFP demo came out, and I have purchased every official additions since. And I really appreciate that you are still making DLC's and expanding the game, despite of the imo low quality campaigns.

[RavoC 10]

Amen, I totally agree.. best campaign was OFP CWC for me and it's expansions. I hope BS can make the Single Player more attractive but I think they mainly focus is Single Player scenario with some new features, that can later be used on-line and since these are DLC I don't even buy them, just patch it. Now the quality of the skins and everything are awesome but the campaign an everything else is just a small package that's bullshit if you ask me, I still hope they release DLC's on DVD or something. I personally think this whole DLC is a bad idea, it's just deleted content, it took some months to get one done, the result is something nobody cares to even look at with a positive idea, simply because it's already a smaller DLC with "new features" like in PMC which in the end just becomes a bug..

I rather have old content, or new content as of skins, or new armies, with normal missions instead of hyper tech AA sniper riffles (:rolleyes:), a shotgun that's a freaking AT gun etc.:o I didn't say it's not cool.. but this game lacks a lot of things.. let's start there.. thank you.

I hope we get some old hardcore mission like in OFP which was hard at times, but not bugged or so overpowered you felt like ahh well.. maybe if I play it online with al my friends the game will be fixed enough to make this mission. The first mission was stupid in PMC, I didn't believe an AI leader could menage the team to victory, it did very well.. until.. all of them was KIA and I was left searching for an IED that I can't seem to trace..........:j: (shift+numpad-) ENDMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ye.. I guess this game was epic in OFP days to play alone, but if multilayer was excluded this would be a disaster.

Also I'm asking myself, if people like Bohemia can't get all the bugs out of there missions in the editor.. and when they do, it mostly lags because of all the content in the missions, which takes another 2 months to get the lag out.. who will ever be able to make this game run without bugs and without lag when something new is coming out. This engine and editor is a lot of work.. but I rather see Bohemia take 2 years for something big, on DVD with GOOD campaign and WORKING content for Multi-player as well as Single-Player then these DLC's, it was a good idea.. but this feels more like, get it done fast, get money.. so we can maybe someday work on a bigger project.. feels desperate seeing you guys work DLC's while mostly you made the best content (expansions) for a game possible..

Edited December 3, 2010 by RavoC

[Wolfrug 0]

Nostalgia goggles beware!

But, aside from that, you're right of course. CWC and Resistance are about the best-told war stories around, and it's hard to live up to that. Maybe it's because then BIS was giving us a piece of their own history: the end of the Cold War, the tension between NATO and the Soviet Union, the feeling of being a conscript pushed into a war you did not want to fight (the fear, no doubt, of every single person who's been in the military service during the Cold War: the idea that any moment now WW3 might begin). But, here's where the nostalgia kicks in: back then, just being able to DRIVE A FRECKING JEEP was something that made you all tingly inside; or the idea of getting taxied around by a Blackhawk helicopter! O-M-G, like! It didn't take very much to excite us then, and they capitalized on it beautifully.

However, times have changed, technology has moved on. I don't personally think BIS needs to feel they have to outdo themselves with every mission or campaign, but ever thought of the fact that maybe they want to? Every mission in the PMC campaign was basically a showcase of a new piece of technology (minigun-van, new helicopter, new UAV, automatic shotgun, new models, new area, new script functions etc). Resistance was basically one big showcase of a new function as well (persistent weapons/units in a campaign, new island, units and weapons). ArmA didn't really do anything new (except teamswitch, which also ruined the personalization of their campaign), but we all know it was an intermediate product before the REAL "Game 2", i.e. Arma 2. And once again, the Red Harvest campaign does a lot of new things, like several missions using the whole playable map, new RPG-like conversation system, new modules (first aid, ALICE, dynamic combat, secops, support options etc) aside from the regular showing off of new units and models (and the beautiful Chernarus). Operation Arrowhead did the same and so on and so on.

Basically, they have to push the envelope, since they're the developers. Unfortunately, this sometimes means storytelling takes second place. BUT, and here's the big but: I do -not- feel that BIS has really ever dropped the ball here! Yes: they haven't copied the emotions of the original CWC, or of Resistance, but I don't think they even want to. They've already told the "forced into war against superior odds but winning in the face of adversity" from the "grunt's point of view" story; BIS needed to move on from that. Maybe they haven't succeeded as well as they sometimes wanted to, but I still think their stories are a heck of a lot better than most. They're still spawning fan-fiction, after all ;) (=user missions using the same background, e.g. Operation Cobalt)

In ArmA, the real (original) ending of the campaign showed the RACS soldiers suddenly turn-coating on the US troops, as the player finds out the Kingdom of Sahrani is in fact responsible for the massacres in their own cities (and the SLA merely moved in as a peace-keeping relief force). The Kingdom of Sahrani could thus simultaneously 'purge' their ideological opponents, while also provoking the north into invading while the US still has a presence on the island - thus ensuring their eventual victory over the north and the 'unification' of the island with the US as their allies. Unfortunately this side of the story was not fully told, the ending for some odd reason turning into such a splintered mess (mainly, once again, because they wanted to show off their 'teamswitch' technology, which unfortunately meant there was no clear 'main' character for us to follow).

In Arma 2, well...the story is a complex and realistic one by all means, and left open for speculations. There's no clear-cut good guy-bad guy dichotomy here. The NAPA under Prizrak are no better than their terrorist brethren in the Chedaki; the mass graves and genocidal behaviour of the Chedaki condemns them, but remember that they're a minority in a majority-language Chernarus - there's without a doubt a history of mistreatment on BOTH sides. The US fails to intervene despite uncovering evidence of ethnic cleansing, but then protests when Russia DOES intervene - but there is never any real sense that the Russians are somehow 'bad guys' for doing so. They are merely looking out for their own interests - such as a republic falling into anarchy right next to their border (and that bombing was no joke, either). It's all very complicated, dangerous, international and very, very topical, almost prescient (game was developed before the whole Georgia thing, after all!). The search for evidence, for truth, is also an underlying theme: it shows exactly how complicated war and ideologies and politics can get, how hard it is to uncover any real 'truth' when a flashpoint like this occurs. The different endings also give us a wealth of options on where to go from there (atomic bomb, Chedaki win, CDF win, etc etc).

However, where I entirely agree with your criticism is when it comes to the whole Op: Arrowhead debacle. They did TRY to add a local touch to the campaign by allowing you to 'help' the locals, but I really do think it was far too heavy handed, and buried under all the high-tech blasting of stone age people back into...pre-historical times. Mleh. The power relations are all just wrong, there's no sense of anything but a "booyah!" attitude from the invading US troops, and the 'ultimate enemy' of Colonel Aziz is just a caricature when compared to Guba (why launch SCUD missiles while your enemy is already knocking down your palace door?). Talking to a few locals with crappy English accents about how much Uncle Sam can help them with their problems is...yeah. Missing the whole fucking point with the Middle East.

They DID try to comment a bit on this in PMC, which is basically the sequel to Op:Arrowhead and Op: Crimson Lance, showing a destroyed country devolved into chaos and anarchy as a result of the US/BAF invasion. BUT once again they completely and entirely failed to give the native people ANY kind of agency or voice, making them just pawns in the hands of the enemy or generic OPFOR with no say in matters.

This is not to say the storyline in PMC isn't bad per say, the whole moral quandary with the fissile material and so on is very classily told, and once again leaves the door open for interesting developments within the Armaverse (Arma 3: PLA vs the world?); likewise the devolution of the country as a result of the invasion and occupation was fairly well told (albeit leaving those who were actually harmed without a voice, once again). And, to return to Op: Arrowhead, the STORY in itself isn't exactly unlikely, I mean, duh, oil, but the way it was told was too heavy handed and one-sided. The whole Karzhegistan angle for instance seemed a little underdeveloped.

Nonetheless, and ultimately, I think that each of BIS' games have contained within them many kernels of truth, and showed us a piece of warfare and how it affects people much more keenly than any CoDs or MoHs. It's often hidden, mentioned in subtext only, or crammed in a corner somewhere. But I firmly believe a general, mature anti-war stance is at the heart of their every game, even if it's often hidden rather (too) well. Storytelling-wise, they haven't failed me yet, even though Op: Arrowhead got pretty close (perhaps due to an unfortunate decision on their part to get involved in a conflict they did not and do not still fully understand - not that I'm saying I do either). Either way, their worlds are always open for interpretation and rather complex, so I really think it's unfair to criticize them too roughly.

Whoa, long post.

tl;dr: BIS storylines are actually pretty good, and although CWC was awesome, BIS has to move on (which they have, with variable success). :)

Regards,

Wolfrug

[Tonci87 163]

Listen to the Thread Starter BIS!

[msy 22]

In OFP, the map is a little small, the units in a mission is not many. But almost everyone who has played CWC and Resistance will appreciate both the campaigns.

If they were unsurpassable to now? If they were so fresh to FPS at that period 10 years ago? Or if it's just so called first impression?

Indeed, in nowadays, PC games are weaken by net games and video games. Many PC games just regard SP missions or campaigns as a tool to be familiar with the control, and develop most in the mp mode.

I think in this point, the MP mode of ARMA2 is much more better than OFP's.

But, it's never to say ARMA2 can give up the SP section.

[Arksa 10]

PMC campaign is just ridiculous :P.

I was confused, scared and laughing on the floor at the same time when the regular voice actor started cursing in scottish accent. I think it sounded more like a robot, or alien I don't know I'm still confused.

Seriously, I've seen plenty user made missions which are 100 times better than the garbage they seem to put out :/.

[kdjac 19]

A brilliant campaign leveraged with decent reviews of it would double this games sales.

Its mad its the one thing thats left altho most on here got the game for the MP side of it, theres a lot of would buyers who would buy it for the SP side.

The engine is there and as seen by user made missions it can be done.

[bangtail 0]

That's why I hardly ever bother with the included Campaigns or SP.

They were liveable in OFP but they are not to my taste in recent history.

I buy these games for the editor and I buy the DLC for the units/vehicles.

I suspect that if my sole reason for playing Arma 2, Arma or OFP had been the included SP/Campaign content, the boxes would be gathering dust in a closet.

I agree with several of the other posters, a campaign done right would be good for sales, but it will never factor into my purchasing decision.

Remove the editor, flexiblity and sandbox nature of the game that has been around since OFP and my support will leave with it ;)

Edited December 3, 2010 by BangTail

[kamikaziii 10]

I agree with all of you guys... but i don't think that "BIS" will read this thread, or try to make something that you guys are talking up there...

BUT WHO KNOWS!?!? LET'S TRY TO REACH THEM!

[royaltyinexile 175]

EDIT: @kamikaziii, I quite agree. :cool: It would be surely infantile to respond ;)

We have PMC... where you are supposed to kill of > 10 tanks with an anti material rifle, fight of a horde of UAVs and fend of an entire battalion along with your mates, while at the same time having made the comment "we are nothing else than a form of taxi service, we are not an army"

We've developed a game; we've developed a series of interesting gameplay challenges. We've put as much attention into tying to interweave fun, challenging gameplay and a modern context and aesthetic as possible, and we continue to support our content.

The quote you've mentioned is a perfect example: we're trying to reinforce some of the realities of the PMC context yet, as we've said over and over and over again, you're not going to be delivering cutlery to U.S. Bases.

Ultimately, we're a game; no-one forces you to buy the product - in fact, we've gone out our way to ensure compatibility for those who don't want to buy, and continue to support the community with upgrades and tools to make your own experiences just as you like.

The characters... The most frequent word in PMC is fuck. It seems the guys have trouble defining their masculinity or something, because the though guy language is just silly.

I disregard this point entirely. You ask for realism on one hand, and complain of swearing on another. It's contradictory and, at worse, a demonstration of double moral standards: Blow a soldier away with a grenade? "Fine, shame about the physics". Say that it's a fucking messy business? "Unacceptable". The moral duality of this position is reprehensible at best.

I have several contacts in the military, and they'll tell you, as will many other, that soldiers use foul language. That's a reality. While I don't believe that its the only way, or indeed most effective way, to communicate a point - subtle or otherwise - I do stand by the fact swearing is a perfectly legitimate tool to deploy.

If you'll also just take one second to actually look at which characters swear, you'll find that its only some of them, for certain reasons, when appropriate/in-character. Your entitled to your opinion - it just happens to be totally, and irrefutably wrong in this case.

What made Cold War Crisis so intense and fantastic? How bout the fact that you for the most time faced a balanced threat. You were given believable missions and believable objectives.

CWC was a great game; I've said so many times before. Yey if we made the exact same campaign now, we would be totally nailed. Rose tinted spectacles abound - I know - I wear them myself (but only on the weekend). This campaign is about PMCs not - and I can't stress this enough- not about the Cold War.

This is asymmetric combat from the point of view of military contractors. This campaign is not about large-scale combined-arms cold war combat - if you'd like that, and I do too, play CWC.

We like ARMA because the engine allows for missions where to think is better than to run'n'gun. The ability to plan a mission out, try out different approaches when it doesn't work out how you thought, and doing what ever you can to keep all your men alive is what made OFP so fantastic. [...] I play through it at least once a year, and have done so since it first came out... That's ten years of OFP right there...

We're not trying to replace CWC. The objective of this campaign is to offer a different set of experiences, perhaps appeal to players who have traditionally shied away from offline SP experiences, and ultimately offer a strong narrative progression. All of these things have been achieved. We've showcased some new ways to interact with the engine, and taken a perfectly legitimate angle, which you are, of course, allow to disagree with.

I am genuinely sorry that you have found this campaign was not to your style of gameplay. This is a DLC offering unique core gameplay, not rehashing CWC, but trying to recreate the idea of the individual in a combat zone, this cmapaign is not about factions as it is about individuals, which has been achieved by following our protagonist through an extended narrative, and offering choices to the player where possible and appropriate.

In addition, bring back storytelling in missions. Have some missions go WELL. Like have one contract turn out without complications, to show off the day to day life of these people.

Please see CP01: Reception, CP02: Vocation

Or the fantastic mission where you have a small patrol in the forest, with just some minor engagements, brilliant missions to drag the player into the scenario. These are just a few elements that work. Not an entire campain of course. But please, consider it.

One of my favourite missions too. But, I stress, this is a DLC, and we have contraints regarding development time and resources. I'm not excusing laziness or poor planning - that is not the point here: the point is rather that choices have to be made and missions weighed up on their merits. We're not tryingto replace CWC. Repeating gameplay that is already available is not our priority; Repeating Gameplay is lazy game design. However, I do take your point on board more broadly.

Rehire the guys who made CWC campain, and if they don't shape up, get rid of your creative department. There is no doubt that they are the weakest link of BI studios.

We'll be sure to take your recruitment advice on board. Your entitlement precedes you.

This campaign was not to your taste, to your style of gameplay. I can accept that; however, many have enjoyed what has been offered, and understood the different type of core gameplay experience available.

Our design brief was not to rehash CWC, it was to work within the parameters of the PMC context, extend the story created so far by Operation Arrowhead and BAF, and offer a return to individuals in combat, as opposed to large-scale factional warfare.

I think Wolfrug has made a number of perfectly valid points, and offers a fair analysis, balancing his subjectivity with objective reason. I fear that other replies have not afforded such rationality, and I sincerely pity that fact.

Regards,

RiE

Edited December 3, 2010 by RoyaltyinExile

[EDcase 87]

I liked the campaign :p

I can't believe you are complaining because there is too much to do in a mission or its too long. :eek:

If you think its too hard then play on cadet mode...

I've played the Flashpoint series since 2001 and liked all the missions. (OK, Red Harvest had a few too many bugs but it was trying to do alot)

Am I a fanboy.... YES!!!

Edited December 3, 2010 by EDcase

[Dwarden 1124]

well we squashed many of the bugs in Harvest Red campaign and hopefully resolve some in future :)

[stun 5]

I have enjoyed the PMC campaign so far, but are the performance issues likely to be addressed?

I have a mid to high level machine (i7 @ghz and ati 5870) but on some of the missions - most notably the first - I have so much stutter and frame rate drops that it made the mission frustrating and unpleasant - it completely detracted from the quality of the mission?

If my machine is struggling I can only imagine what it is like on low to mid range machines.

I would be interested to hear how well the PMC campaign runs on the Dev's machines and what their machine specs are.

Arma normally runs really well on my machine - the exception is a few of the BI campaign (Harvest Red and Arrowhead) missions. I suspect it is due to the overuse of heavy scripts and the civilian module.

Edited December 3, 2010 by stun

[SPC.Spets 21]

Well, if you see some videos of real PMC they think they are so cool and so invencible, they think they are THE ELITE soldiers. Until one bullet hits their heads, too late to remember they are fragile mortal humans too.

Anyway, in my opinion this mission is different, I agree EW was a good campaign, too short maybe, HR was a great, hard campaign, but Im still barelly remember the campaign of the old OpF, but I remember well it was very very inmersive and compelling. Arma I campaign was good for me too.

About PMC campaign it looks more like an action movie, and as I said, it was different from normal arma series, and I like it. although I preffer the old style

[ProfTournesol 956]

I agree with all of you guys... but i don't think that "BIS" will read this thread, or try to make something that you guys are talking up there...

BUT WHO KNOWS!?!? LET'S TRY TO REACH THEM!

This is really uninformed and unecessary. You may like or dislike their work, but BI employees are very present on these forums, even their CEO is posting often here. You'd better inform yourself next time your posting nonsense like this

[almanzo 144]

EDIT: @kamikaziii, I quite agree. :cool: It would be surely infantile to respond ;)

you kind of beat me to it, and becouse of that, made a stronger point :P I would very much like to start with thanking you for taking your time to answer. The thing I like more than anything about BI is that they take their time to lissen to their fans. I would say that you are gifted with alot of knowlegeable and clever fans also, so that might explain some of it (of course not speaking of my self here).

We've developed a game; we've developed a series of interesting gameplay challenges. We've put as much attention into tying to interweave fun, challenging gameplay and a modern context and aesthetic as possible, and we continue to support our content.

The quote you've mentioned is a perfect example: we're trying to reinforce some of the realities of the PMC context yet, as we've said over and over and over again, you're not going to be delivering cutlery to U.S. Bases.

Ultimately, we're a game; no-one forces you to buy the product - in fact, we've gone out our way to ensure compatibility for those who don't want to buy, and continue to support the community with upgrades and tools to make your own experiences just as you like.

You might wonder why I bother to sound my opinion, first of all because I would have been glad to get criticism myself if I had participated in such a product. It's our way of saying what we wan't in the next release. For me, a real good sp experience is worth much more than 100s of new units... My main reason for voicing my opinion is, besides wanting more of the old bis magic, that I think a great campaign would recruit alot of new players, and reveal to them how insane ARMA really is. ARMA is so complex that it takes time to discover how much it really offers. I want a campain that reflects that fact, becouse the game deserves a campain that shows it hounor!

And just to add a small note on the end. I am, and will always support bis. I didn't expect to much out of the campaign, because of the earlier disappointments, but I had hope. But despite that, ARMA is giving me so much through playing online with MARSOC, I would like to cont ribute back. As many others have said, I almost view it as some kind of a donation.

I disregard this point entirely. You ask for realism on one hand, and complain of swearing on another. It's contradictory and, at worse, a demonstration of double moral standards: Blow a soldier away with a grenade? "Fine, shame about the physics". Say that it's a fucking messy business? "Unacceptable". The moral duality of this position is reprehensible at best.

I know that soliders swear, just look at dokumentaries like armadilla and so forth. But for all bis campains since OFP Red Hammer, characters have been more like action heroes. We don't get to know them as people, just as macho guys running around shooting. We get a glimpse of it in the ARMA 2 campain, but it dies out very fast. The thing is they don't sound like humans, they seem allmost untouched about the situation they are in, and are generally hard to believe. As such, swearing is overdone, and sounds stupid at times. Of course soliders swear, but they don't go around with egos bigger than their guns, thinking that they own the world. My point here is that it's simply a good idea to create characters that are easy to relate to, and if we are presented with characters who seem unnatural, or characters who are very hard to like, then it doesn't work that way.

Compare this with the critizism the "Kane and Lynch" franchise has recieved.

CWC was a great game; I've said so many times before. Yey if we made the exact same campaign now, we would be totally nailed. Rose tinted spectacles abound - I know - I wear them myself (but only on the weekend). This campaign is about PMCs not - and I can't stress this enough- not about the Cold War.

That might be true for some, for me it would not. But you still miss the whole point. I am not asking for a nother CWC campain, I just wan't to point out what made that campain work, so that those elements can be used in a totaly different enviroment.

Believeable characters, missions where the engagements are realistic, trying to provoke the "fight or flee" feeling and so forth. Watching stuff like Band of brothers, to get reference would also be smart. The point is that all campains for the original ofp, including BOTH addons, gave very good stories. Especially CWC and Red Hammer, I would have paid full price for both those addons, simply becouse they added more value than most full games did and still do.

"Our design brief was not to rehash CWC, it was to work within the parameters of the PMC context, extend the story created so far by Operation Arrowhead and BAF, and offer a return to individuals in combat, as opposed to large-scale factional warfare."

Even though you have a large scale scene, you can have the player feel in touch with the individual. Armstrong was very well presented, for instance. We experienced OFP through him and the other characters, we don't do that with the new ones. For that we need the story to feel believable. On the other hand, I love the idea of making a game around PMC's, because it has never been done, and if done right it could actually provoke a real debate around the use of PMCs. Thats the whole point here, really.

Books and movies tell stories that engages us, provokes us and that raises public debate. This because the authors wants to convey a message, they want to tell a story...

CWC was like that, it was more like a game built around a story, than a story trying to fit into a game. It felt like the devs wanted to tell us something, wanted us to reflect. This has not been the case since the last addon for OFP.

ARMA II has so much potential in it for telling great stories. BI has something other developers only can imagine... They got a strong, robust, brilliant stage to stand on that can do about anything they want it to do. But they are not using it...

The last campaigns have felt like it has been trying to hard. It's almost trying to be a game that it isn't, a run'n'gun shooter, a action game. It feels like the main focus is to try to be "cool", and because of that, it ends up rather silly. Make a campain that uses the full potential both technically and narratively the engine offers. I promise you, it will be remembered as the best game through history. I doubt that any other developer will ever develop an engine with the potential that the ARMA2 engine has. You can make a game that will never be forgotten. You have all the tools you need! If you'll need funding, ask us to donate. I would more than love to donate to BIS, and you KNOW that there are more of us.

But do not get me wrong... I love ARMA2, and I will most likely never stop playing it except when or if there is an arma3. I will also buy every BI product released, because I am so grateful for everything I have got from you in the past. But at the same time, BI was among the greatest digital storytellers in the world, and sadly this can't be said any more.

[W0lle 1048]

The ArmA2, BAF and PMC campaigns are great - if you guys would stop comparing them with CWC.

But I have to agree that some of the missions are a bit too fast paced for my taste too.

It's not possible to recreate the original campaign feeling anymore, simply because at its time it was unique.

And besides that, we all have the mission editor and a text editor. All tools needed to recreate such a campaign is free to do so. ;)

[sparks50 0]

The ArmA2, BAF and PMC campaigns are great - if you guys would stop comparing them with CWC.

You dont have to compare it to the OFP campaigns to see that much of the voice work, scripts and immersion has been a bit subpar lately.

Either way, I'm just glad BI is still supporting us closely with free patches and good communication.

Edited December 3, 2010 by sparks50

[almanzo 144]

The ArmA2, BAF and PMC campaigns are great - if you guys would stop comparing them with CWC.

But I have to agree that some of the missions are a bit too fast paced for my taste too.

It's not possible to recreate the original campaign feeling anymore, simply because at its time it was unique.

And besides that, we all have the mission editor and a text editor. All tools needed to recreate such a campaign is free to do so. ;)

I honestly think that this is not true, not compared to CWC, or not compared to alot of other games out now. But it IS possible to recreate the feeling the original CWC game gave. We've seen attempts from the community. But the underlying idea of both ARMA2s campain, OA, BAF and PMC are good. The potential of a great story is present in them all. But it lacks credibility. They are too hero focused, especially in ARMA2 campain and PMC. The voice actors are bad, the dialogue is terrible, the characters are underdeveloped and lacks a human side. The missions are over powered, and not thought through. And again, information on what goes around elsewhere. A story where we follow one company, troop, whatever, while at the same time are informed about what the others are doing (whom are our friends)...

A quick idea. Make a map, put alot of enemies in it, put in strongholds and bases, think up a conflict and where the opposition is positioned, who they are and why they are fighting, as is done very good in ARMA2 main campain. Then have a general or two lay out a plan on how they would approach the situation given the resources they have.

[NoRailgunner 0]

You can't please everyone.

One has to admit that not all missions were that great in OFP. Even the story felt partly a bit constructed and pressed into the "underdog vs big bad evil" scheme. Time is changing and so do people and their thinking of what is great and what should be "retired" into the fog of nostalgia.

Sure you can create a great PMC story/campaign but I highly doubt that this will be successful without any type of heroes. Most people playing a campaign like to identify themselves with some type of good/heroic character(s).

Question is: why do people like to play or keep on playing campaigns?

Imho there should be still a big difference with campaigns between sp and mp - sp for great storytelling, background informations and cutscenes and mp with focus on playing together incl. JIP.

[orbit101 10]

I never played the ofp campaign, but agree 100% with op's point. The missions in the Arma series are ridiculous. To often a 5 man squad is sent out against an entire army. Just once I would like to complete a mission with all of my ai teammates alive. The US military isn't as stupid as people like to think. A 5 man squad of special forces soldiers is mainly used for recon and capturing HVTs. They would never be sent out deep into enemy territory with just a Humvee and standard combat load. Standard operating procedures in Iraq is that no less than 3 fully loaded Humvees leave the FOB at a time. Then you factor in the air support, artillery support, and available reinforcements. This one squad against the world mentality has got to stop. No rational military force operates like they do in Arma. This is the reason why I couldn't even play through the campaigns. Once my badly damaged Abrams was ordered to destroy the 10th armored patrol, I just quit.

Edited December 3, 2010 by orbit101

[That guy 10]

the reason you have such ridiculous odd is simple. reality isnt fun (for most people) in a game. if the engagements in arma were realistic (in the iraq/ afghan war context) you would have a platoon or two worth of men shooting sparatically for 5 hours to get 10 baddies wile taking only a single WIA. and the baddies manage to escape with any WIA or KIA

i guess it comes down to the AIs. BIS could make a more timid, life preserving AI that runs and hides more than shoots, but then people would bitch that's its not fun. i dont like the man vrs whole fucking world missions either, but be real here.

regarding character development:

lets face some uncomfortable facts here: most combat arms dudes are utterly devoid of character. their whole existence can be summed up with the "3 Bs" (booze, boobs, and balls [either their testis, or sport balls/sporting]). other wise known as the "stereotypical soldier guy" (asshole).

and any real life "character development" that does occur surly does not happen on the front lines, or wile riding in a chopper to an LZ. it all happens at the chow hall, or in the bay, or in the many hours of mind numbing waiting around for something to happen. all things that we never see in game, simply because they stupendously boring.

Do you want to play a mission were you have to go from the tent you are living in to the chow hall, and have a chat with a couple of the guys in your squad about which actresses boobs are the best? or about how much the food you are eating sucks? of about how much you hate your squad leader because he makes you do work?

of course not! because its boring!

and if they did all you all would just blast it "ZOMG, REAL SOLDIER DONT TALK LEIK THAT LOL" or "TERRIBLE VOCIE ACKTING" or "BOOORRRING".

BIS i like what you do. but i do not envy your position :p

the one thing i have noticed about BIS campaigns is they seems to be centered around a new tech "gimmick"

for example, arma 1. its gimmick was team switch. that campaign suffered because of it

arma 2, warfare. the end suffered because of it

OA. it appeared to be a technological show case with missions and story added in (showing of the FLIR, the new UAVs etc).

EW. well, i would say its very gimmiky, but it uses them to enhance the experience. it was not focused on some new tech or trick, just the story of some poor bastard and the end of the world :)

i have not played the BAF or PMC campaigns yet, so i cant accurately assess them, but here are my impressions:

it seems people liked the BAF game. there seems to be no major technological gimmick. with no un-needed stuff or technology BIS was able to souly focus on just the story and setting. they could make it flow on its own

PMC the gimmick is the new in game video. its aimed directly at delivering story elements and seems to work because of it... so ... yeah. EW like?

i would say in the future just avoid centering a whole campaign on a new tech gimmick and just focus on the story, mission progression or what ever.

[victim913 10]

I'll try to keep this short.

Arma2(OA, BAF, pMC, etc) is only a foundation for a game. i would go so far as to say it's like a monopoly game board. Only the board. The community is the money, the cards, the pieces, etc.

I bet if mods like ACE and BWmod were allowed to charge money for what they produce, alot fewer people would pay for your stuff. You don't even finish some. BAF, CZ, Germany,.all incomplete.

BIS have found a way to make a game that is made by the community. They release the game with the engine, but after playing the game for about a week, the game is useless. there is no replayabiliy in the missions or campaigns. Harvest Red almost does. But after that, all campaigns, became a collection of random missions that focus on one "feature" of the game. In fact, isn't that what "bootcamp" is? a chance to use one specific feature, learn how to use it? BAF is a very clear example of that. All the missions are all the same. Fly a merlin for 5 minutes, Fly a wildcat for 5 minutes, clear some mines for 5 minutes, etc. There is very little challenge, no need for decisions, or even options. it's straight up. It's like playing DOOM all over again. I just got done playing a mission where i walked around throwing smoke grenades at civilians for 5 minutes with no purpose. Or standing on an airstrip waiting for attackers that we knew were coming. And after 5 minutes, that was it. At least Harvest read you had me ride a mountain bike to fill some time but this PMC shows the laziness.

You guys don't even take the time to show a helicopter take off or land. Or when we cleared the street of snipers for the covoy, the convoy didn't even move. At least use some energy to show us what we were doing it for.

You made this huge world for us with all kinds of stuff we can do with it, but the create missions that pretty much follow a hallway or corridor, with no real change. Sometimes you move the objecitive or location of spawning ofpor. But NO one plays your missions more than once. Moslty at least.

I say that it is the community that is filling your pockets. They shold be the ones getting paid. They make the stuff that people play with. You guys got it easy. You sit back and watch money come in from the popularity of the game takes off because of what all these mods have created for you. I heard about the game from a mod that i came across. If not for that mod, i would never have even known about the game.

I love the game and i will pay for anything more that you release. Do you know why? it's because people like A.C.E. and BWMOD and all the users that are out their creating addonss. If these people didn't exist, you would be out of business.

For example, I just bought this PMC download. Why? I will almost never use the PMC faction. I love the proving grounds map, but even then you make it so small it will rarely be used in missions. But I buy it bcause someone might make a mission that requires something from it. or because i want to use the helicoptor in my mission.

But the rest of the time, i will be usig a majority of user created content. I challenge you to find user created missions that only use BIS stuff. You will get a handful, and those people probably have slow connections and don't have the time to wait for downloads.

You have created a drug, You gave us just enough to get hooked, then you rely on us to keep supplying more of the drug. You drug pushers:eek:

And you know what happens when people can't have the original drug they start making their own, and they get cheaper and lower in quality.

Step up. You made the game, stick with it and finish it. At least if you won't give us good quality campaigns or missions, at least finish what you started.

BAF has no warfare/military buildings or even a tank or any support. So no one can make a good warfare mission usig BAF.

Germany has nothing. only a couple troops

CZ has next to nothing. Dont even have a medic.

Don't get me started on the OPFOR. how does Takistan have better cars than Russia? Why no Chinese or north korean?

Just clean it up finsih up on these before moving on to PMC stuff.

Make good Campaigns. missions that make sense, and give us options. I like flying the Merlin, but if its just to pick up people in random locations for 5 minutes then don't bother making that mission. make me get shot down or something and have to find a way out or rescue.

And no more Corridor/hallway missions. I don't want more missions where i have a specific path to follow to meet enemies in predictable locations with a big boss fight at the end.

And no more Rambo. No one will send 2 jerks out in the proving grounds with a sniper rifle to take on 15 tanks while they all stay in their spot while their buddies are burning in the tank a a few meters away, black smoke going all the way up to be seen for miles around while all the soldiers go about their business picking their nose etc.

And one last thing. Keep them coming. Make campaigns and release them every month or so. make them interesting. Give them purpose, and create a real time type of situation that you can keep track of keeping the storyline going every time you release them.

Thanks. I love this drug. Armaholic is my drug dealer. But seriously you gotta start making better drugs, cause Armaholic has to keep mixing in extras to make it worth the dough. If you give some quality then no need to mix. :bounce3:

[bangtail 0]

Well, that's the point really. I rarely use any of the included content. I've been waiting for VTE and the Unsung and that is what makes the game worth playing for me as I create my own content.

I'm happy to pay for the editor which affords me 1000s of hours of gameplay, and that to me, is worth every dime several times over.

If BIS didn't have the community they have, it would have been over a long time ago as far as I am concerned.

BIS supplies the canvas and the easel, you create, and the possibilities are endless :D

The community makes this game what it is, it is unique in that respect, and it has been that way since the heady days of OFP.

In their defense, I don't think BIS have ever lost sight of that.

The DLC is optional and it is infinitely better than any of the DLC that is available as far as other games are concerned.

Edited December 4, 2010 by BangTail