can AI still see through clutter grass in 1.03?

[Relemar 10]

So they don't see as well as in previous versions, but they still CAN see through it after your presence has been detected? Still sucks, then :(

why are you so bothered about this? its a little bug, dont get too angry or stressed over it.

its fine for me, i aint complaining

[Master gamawa 0]

Hi Master gamawa

I just tested this the AI did not spot me. So your experiment appears to be unrepeatable.

Well, squeeze my butt and call me Nancy, I just tried it again just now to post screenshots and show you HOW WRONG YOU ARE, but I couldn't repeat it!

Although I did repeat it a few times when I wrote my previous comment.. which was what made me post it in the first place!

I stand corrected, good sir! I am now trying to find what the hell happened and they detected me before. Maybe some part of me clipped through the wall or something.

Anyway.. Move along people, nothing to see here!

[Flightster 10]

AI doesn't see anything, they shoot at your last known location (eventhough the way they hit you is not very logical at times).

[kklownboy 43]

i have crawled upto a few AI undetected...in the grass,Have hidden behind walls while they walked right by..AND i have been chased off the map by AI i cant even see or take the time to turn around to see(running for my life)..lol Love that about this game. IMHO the AI should always be better than me. so its not a stupid kill fest.

I see fellow teammates(human,MP) with scopes and gillys get spotted, but thats because they had a scope and couldnt really see that it wasnt safe to move. Scopes are evil! And then the lame "how can they see me" Iam in the brush"... WELL your on the UP slope of a hill laying down, your whole body is in view duh. Funny how players think there safe when all thats between them and the AI is grass.. Most deaths are player error.

[froggyluv 2136]

I think the AI are actually a little too easy in the latest build. I used to fear being exposed at all, similar to an MP game but now I can shoot at a group of 5 AI 150 meters out and know I have a good chance of survival - a little too good.

[dmarkwick 261]

So they don't see as well as in previous versions, but they still CAN see through it after your presence has been detected? Still sucks, then :(

The more likely explanation is that once they know where you are, they continue to know where you were. It would be a poor AI system that spotted you, then once you lay down they immediately gave up :)

If you can possibly arrange this, try letting the AI know where you are, then moving off some way and hiding where they cannot see you. If they still hunt you down to your precise location, that would be wrong. However, if they move up to the last known location and look for you there (and even shooting at that spot) then it's working as it should.

[walker 0]

The more likely explanation is that once they know where you are, they continue to know where you were. It would be a poor AI system that spotted you, then once you lay down they immediately gave up :) ...

Hi all

Yes it amazes me that people can forget the peekaboo behind the blankie game, their parents/guardian taught them as a baby.

Kind Regards walker

[kremator 1065]

The more likely explanation is that once they know where you are, they continue to know where you were. It would be a poor AI system that spotted you, then once you lay down they immediately gave up :)

If you can possibly arrange this, try letting the AI know where you are, then moving off some way and hiding where they cannot see you. If they still hunt you down to your precise location, that would be wrong. However, if they move up to the last known location and look for you there (and even shooting at that spot) then it's working as it should.

I seem to remember there was a mission created that showed you what the AI saw and how they would engage and move to contact. You were able then to warp to a new position.

Haven't tried it with 1.03 but will now.

[InFireBaptize 0]

^

A simple, but important question, on which depends the likelihood of me purchasing Arma2.

i don't understand this grass myth! so enlighten me please, are you supposed to be 100% invisible behind grass? how many times you've seen enemy behind grass? i have shot many of them. BTW there is a very simple answer to your question, "the Demo". Have a nice day.

[max power 21]

Apparently, the AI have an approximation of clutter around each unit. In theory, this means they should not able to know where you are if you are lying down and you are not doing anything to make them hear you under most circumstances (in tall grass).

[NeMeSiS 11]

Hi all

Yes it amazes me that people can forget the peekaboo behind the blankie game, their parents/guardian taught them as a baby.

Kind Regards walker

Probably because it works in almost all other games, while the ArmA AI already had quite advanced ways to

when visual contact is lost.

In ArmA2 it is either the same as in ArmA1, or better. But since i thought that it worked very well in ArmA2 i couldnt be arsed to check if there is a difference. :rolleyes:

[InFireBaptize 0]

Apparently, the AI have an approximation of clutter around each unit. In theory, this means they should not able to know where you are if you are lying down and you are not doing anything to make them hear you under most circumstances (in tall grass).

wait a second, so you're hiding behind the grass not moving and "assuming" that you can't be seen! how smart :rolleyes:

[Grizzle 0]

Ok, help me understand the problem. If you spot an enemy that jumps behind a tree or fades into the foliage... do you or do you not fire in that general direction even though you can't see them anymore?

I'm guessing all of you fire, so I don't know why anyone would expect the AI to think we just suddenly disappeared because we laid down in a clump of grass...

[walker 0]

Ok, help me understand the problem. If you spot an enemy that jumps behind a tree or fades into the foliage... do you or do you not fire in that general direction even though you can't see them anymore?

I'm guessing all of you fire, so I don't know why anyone would expect the AI to think we just suddenly disappeared because we laid down in a clump of grass...

Hi Grizzle

Yes that is the essence of the peekaboo behind the blankie game, your parents/guardian taught you as a baby.

The problem is that all FPS games other than ArmA negatively train their players that they have become invisible, when they hide behind the blankie. It is one of the major reasons the military chose VBS over every other simulation engine.

Of course it is a terrible fright to all those COD players it takes them about 2 to 4 weeks to get over the shock, but they do learn hence the decrease in my score in PvP :( :D

The first few weeks of ArmA II I was racking up top 3 scores now I am moving back to my usual slot of sub top 10. :o

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 7, 2009 by walker

[Raznor09 10]

AI doesnt seem to respond to silenced weapons as well or at all now, which is good since theres there point. i was playing a night mission, had silenced m4 there was about 8 guys maybe 80 or so meters away got them all and not one looked in my direction, there was a tank there as well, which also didnt look over at me. so i concluded that was fixed.

[kozzy420 21]

why are you so bothered about this? its a little bug, dont get too angry or stressed over it.

its fine for me, i aint complaining

I agree, its such a small thing in overall such an awesome, ambitious game :D

[Seaweed 10]

Oh, never mind :-)

Edited August 8, 2009 by Seaweed

[armored_sheep 56]

The problem that objects in distance are not hidden by grass is only matter of drawing scene on monitor. This issue for players will be hopefully fixed in some next patch, too. Now, fortunately in this case, AI does not look on the scene same way as player does.

All objects have modeled simple components that represent visibility occlusion. If you are partialy hidden behind object your visibility for AI is reduced. Grass concealement is aproximated too. Plus each moving character visibility calculation is affrected by his speed and stance used in movement.

Just remark - AI "senses" in our game are not just visual but also by sound. Each stance and speed of character movement is also represented by different values. After 1.03 it is much easier to sneak closer to your enemies until the firefight starts.

[alef 0]

AI does not look on the scene same way as player does.

All objects have modeled simple components that represent visibility occlusion. If you are partialy hidden behind object your visibility for AI is reduced. Grass concealement is aproximated too.

The grass in A2 has higher plants that seems to player's eye like the view-blocked bushes. In A1 the grass was more even.

The aproximation should take into account this uneven distribution. A thing is instancing grass pieces on the videocard, another thing is doing at CPU level for the AI.

That's grass clutter is procedural but it's not constant in time, because grass can be removed or temporarily lowered ingame. I hope you will come out with a model that's closer to what players see and the way they think are being seen by AI.

[Alex72 1]

About grass and AI shooting at you:

If they/some AI saw you in the grass - ofcourse the AI's mates will also lay down a shower of bullets at your position. That would happen in real life as well. You would tell your fellow soldiers that you saw some bastards lying exactlly "THERE". You would explain and point and your mates would start shooting at the location pointed out by the one seeing you. So thats not at all weird to me.

And what Armored Sheep is saying now is very nice. Move slow and you can manage to sneak up on AI's real close (tested - check). Faster movement speed and "mocking about" will make them either see you or hear you. Have grass between you and AI, and move real slow (crawl slowest speed) will keep you undetected.

It may not work perfectly yet, but its damn good. And official statement here that its being worked on further. :)

Alex

[galzohar 31]

The main problem is tweaking. I can WALK up to an AI on the Utes airfield all the way to 175m before he sees me when we're right in front of eachother (he's facing me and I'm facing him). That is absurd as I could see him already from 300m (and much more with adjusted FOV settings or optics). The when playing short-range battles with grass, the AI will be pretty impossible to beat due to his ability to see through grass, even if it's a reduced ability to see - it's definitely much better than my ability to see him through grass. Me and my buddies found it significantly easier to complete missions with grass turned off, since with grass on we would consistently get shot down by AI we can't see.

Remember AI is effectively playing with HUD markers that show the exact last known position of all enemies even if they did not personally see them (it's enough that one of their buddies heard a sufficient amount of shots fired). This, in many situations, give the AI a major advantage in combat scenarios that involve large amounts of grass.

IMO the top priority stuff to fix when it comes to AI detection are:

- Increase how hard it is for AI to see through grass.

- Make AI hearing detection not be sufficient to pinpoint the player's location, no matter how much noise he's making. To pinpoint a noise-maker's location there needs to be a LOS requirement as well, and the only thing noise should do is make it easier for the AI to see stuff he's already able to see without hearing but doesn't "because the numbers are too low" (factors from movement, distance, grass etc).

Then again I don't know if currently there's any way to handle an estimated area, or if the AI simply gets a position but doesn't consider that as totally up to date.

Unrelated to AI, I don't understand why Chernarus and Utes were made with so much grass. There are very few places in those islands where you can go prone without going blind, which is really hurting gameplay. I don't know what area of the world it's "based" on, but I hadn't been to many places in the world where no matter where almost no matter where you went prone you'd be blind. While I hadn't traveled the entire world, I've been to enough places to say that the foliage volume in Chernarussia is quite extreme.

Edited August 13, 2009 by galzohar

[focher 15]

Unrelated to AI, I don't understand why Chernarus and Utes were made with so much grass. There are very few places in those islands where you can go prone without going blind, which is really hurting gameplay.

I think this is the root cause of misunderstanding about why "grass" is an issue for so many players. First, you need to distinguish between the foliage that is built into the map versus the grass which is a dynamically added visual element. Second, people tend to confuse the issue around ability for bullets to penetrate (and kill) you in foliage versus the real issue which is visibility. I don't see people arguing that, once detected, it's unreasonable for the AI to shoot at a player in the grass ... nor for the bullets to penetrate grass and kill the player. It's whether the grass has effected the AI's ability to see the player in the first place.

Grass, in regards to the issue of visibility, is frustrating because it's an entirely human visual feature in the game. It is dynamically rendered (or not) based entirely on the player's software settings or GPU's capabilities. The rendering of grass effectively blocks a human player's visibility but is not calculated into the visibility for the AI. So while you may have your grass rendering turned on and be under the impression you are hidden based on the visual characteristics you are looking it, the engine itself is not giving you any lower visibility than if there was no grass and you were laying on open ground.

I fail to understand why people argue that this is not 1) an issue that effects playability and/or 2) an issue which effects the realism in the game.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Focher

[dogz 10]

I am noob at this game...

BUT I fully expect to be shot at times that I think I am hidden. To be hidden from one is not to be hidden from all.

My RL experience with Paintball, IR LaserTag and real weapons proves this again and again.

It aint perfect but its great....

[ActionMan 10]

To everyone who doesn't get this issue - its about AI acting the same as players -- or about players on low-detail acting the same as players with high-detail.

If a high-detail human player can't see something, then it should be hidden for low-detail players and the AI also. In other words, everyone should be playing by the same rules.

Yes that is the essence of the peekaboo behind the blankie game, your parents/guardian taught you as a baby.

The problem is that all FPS games other than ArmA negatively train their players that they have become invisible, when they hide behind the blankie.

Of course it is a terrible fright to all those COD players

You obviously don't play PvP COD :p

I play both OFP and COD games, and the difference between cover/concealment is very important in hard-core COD4 too (i.e. the "realism mode"). Most of Dyslexis guide is applicable to CoD as well ;)

Guns like the M60 have a lot of penetration in CoD, so even brick walls are really only concealment when up against smart players.

[kremator 1065]

Hmmmm perhaps we need something like this ......

Player A is playing on HIGH detail and has tall grass. AI has a MUCH reduced visibility and therefore does not see him easily. Likewise the AI sitting in tall grass will have a much lower profile and will be difficult to see.

Player B is playing on LOW detail and has no grass. AI now has a much higher chance of seeing him.

Yes this scenario DOES force you to play with grass on ... but so what ? It was what the game was designed around! This is a local problem for your machine and servers can just force the grass on/off anyway.

Comments ?