Operation Flashpoint 2 officially announced

[Dwarden 1124]

nice and what's point of handgrenade to be of 5k polys or more

when today You can do it fine with less apply proper texturing, normal/paralax mapping, shaders and w/e technology offered by hw

i mean ... imagine this situation

ultra HD supertrooper game pumping excess polygons on every possible object

let say 100fps if u do nothing just stare at sky

80 fps because u just look around

60 fps when you see ur hands

40 fps when You see vehicle or soldier

20 fps if your team takes out nades

10 fps if some of nades and weapons fly or lay around

and i forgot to mention effects to cause nice single fps effect

ok i was just 'bit overboard' but graphics or physics are nice but if You miss the game itself ...

it's just another fallen title

[rocket 9]

Its a rare and unusual studio that will let you discuss direct competition products on their forums... offtopic or not

---

From a modders perspective, I don't see the competition as a positive. This now means I need to decide whether to develop on ArmA, ArmA 2, OFP2, or a combination of them. The easiest solution is to develop on ArmA/ArmA2 because we already have a good idea what ArmA2 will involve.

From a defence/military perspective (I used to work for the NZDF). They don't care about publisher. They care about the ENGINE. BI (as I understand it) own the engine, Codemasters owned the rights. Hence, ArmA is OFP 1.5 as noted above. Also, Defence contractor's software cycles are around 3-5 years... NZ and Ausi aren't likely to license another title for the purpose that VBS2 is using.

From a customer perspective, I see it as potentially splitting the market, the likely result being both studio's having less money. No bucks, no buck rodgers. Do we really want studio's competing on price? If you want to drop price, you sacrifice features. Then quality.

Remember:

* Publishers aren't too concerned about patches, people have already bought the game. Modding tools don't really sell that many extra units, and they potentially take away from sales from expansions. Basically, a publisher would see pretty graphics = more sales rather than modding tools = more sales.

* Look at all the great studios (e.g. Blizzard aka "its done when its done!", Rockstar aka "we'll do what we want!"), you will see they often have two things in common:

1. Huge brand advantage (lack of "real" competition)

2. Buckets of Cash!

[Average Joe 0]

I think after the LOTR Online released Codies REALLY dont need to worry about money problems being that they have over 50 people currently working on OFP2.

Competition IS a goodthing, it raises expectations therefore game developers will push themselves further.

[Sennacherib 0]

5000 polys for a hand grenade is correct. if this model is used to create a normal map for a low poly model. that seems logic.

i doubt that a professional company like codemaster make useless stuff, just for the pleasure.

[Dwarden 1124]

btw. i read somewhere info about BattleField 3 ...

it seems it's another modern based battledfield with 64-128pl battles with tons of weapons, vehicles, huge maps, super graphics and so on ... (sounds familiar?

the market in 2008 gets crowded with arcade shooters or bit less arcade shooters ...

question remainds if there stays anything more 'tactical' FPS/RPG/RTS style ...

i really wish OFP2 to be good title but consider Codies were talking about it for years (yes even before the 'annoucement' theirs staff claimed on several places (incl theirs forums)

they develop the game in house already for quite some time ...

if it was true or just coverup story to hinder the soon break with BIS ... i can't say

also i got serious doubts considering experience with way how IGI and IGI2 projects were ran...

till some usable version (beta, demo or final) it's all just speculation

as time progress i look on ArmA more and more as on UT2003 ...

it wasn't bad game it was just evolution of UT with some mistakes (more or less similar to ArmA ones)

UT2004 was nearly as good hit as original UT so the chances are ArmA 2 is gunna be 'UT2004' ...

ofc i would love ArmA 2 to be UT2007 but that's so huge leap

so let's say maybe game after ArmA2

it takes time to develop product and as they gets more and more complex, eyecandy and customers 'demands' rise ...

this time grows faster than games are produced and to shorten it You need more people and tons of $

i'm now starting to catch more and more with the 'element' of IDEA Games on indie studios cooperation, resouce and staff sharing etc...

also BIS is 'linked' to theirs community more than some may admit lot of informations is shared already and more to come

[rocket 9]

I think after the LOTR Online released Codies REALLY dont need to worry about money problems being that they have over 50 people currently working on OFP2.

Competition IS a goodthing, it raises expectations therefore game developers will push themselves further.

You are raising your expectations based on the premise that competition is a good thing. Remember that a good game doesn't not necessarily mean a commercial success. Quite how BI pulled off the development of ArmA in a studio with around 30 people is beyond me, the studio I work at has 70 people and I still feel like it would be a big ask (and an awfully expensive one).

Quote[/b] ]game developers will push themselves further

You're missing the point, game development is much less about the developers themselves, as it is the publishers. This is something I think most consumers are completely clueless on. They wonder why developers do this, and didn't do this. The answer is nearly always that they couldn't, because the publisher wouldn't fund it and they couldn't find a way to fit it in.

Publishers are also highly risk averse (for good reason). Where two titles are competing for a relatively small market a competing title means one thing... less sales. Is the market big enough for two titles? I don't really think so. BI needs all the funds it can get, hence the expansion pack so soon and the announcement about ArmA 2.

There's pressure to be "first" with the sequel. I suspect BI, being very passionate about the genre, see ArmA 2 as what they really wanted to release in the first place, but they needed to secure future customers and the cash to fund development. Codemasters are funding the development of a completely new game, even with 50 people thats a huge ask in a relatively short timeframe.

I don't think "game developers will push themselves further" I think game publishers will push the development.

Assuming that the competition does result in increased quality of title(s), it has a negative for me in terms of modding and addon development. Two completely different engines, means split development of a relatively small community. There are enough complaints that addon developers are not making enough for ArmA - that is going to get much worse with two competing titles.

[ebud 18]

Your last thought would be a good one, but from everything I've read/heard, OFP2 won't be "open" for addons/mods like OFP/ARMA. Or I should say that in the interview they quickly skirted the issue of addons/mods/community and went straight to the info on mission editing.

[Average Joe 0]

Quote[/b] ]game developers will push themselves further

You're missing the point, game development is much less about the developers themselves, as it is the publishers. This is something I think most consumers are completely clueless on. They wonder why developers do this, and didn't do this. The answer is nearly always that they couldn't, because the publisher wouldn't fund it and they couldn't find a way to fit it in.

Publishers are also highly risk averse (for good reason). Where two titles are competing for a relatively small market a competing title means one thing... less sales. Is the market big enough for two titles? I don't really think so. BI needs all the funds it can get, hence the expansion pack so soon and the announcement about ArmA 2.

There's pressure to be "first" with the sequel. I suspect BI, being very passionate about the genre, see ArmA 2 as what they really wanted to release in the first place, but they needed to secure future customers and the cash to fund development. Codemasters are funding the development of a completely new game, even with 50 people thats a huge ask in a relatively short timeframe.

I don't think "game developers will push themselves further" I think game publishers will push the development.

Assuming that the competition does result in increased quality of title(s), it has a negative for me in terms of modding and addon development. Two completely different engines, means split development of a relatively small community. There are enough complaints that addon developers are not making enough for ArmA - that is going to get much worse with two competing titles.

Right I understand you fully, but doesnt codies publish their own games therefore releasing the kind of pressure BIS had over the whole find a publisher and rush the game fiasco?

[rocket 9]

Right I understand you fully, but doesnt codies publish their own games therefore releasing the kind of pressure BIS had over the whole find a publisher and rush the game fiasco?

Yes, you're technically right.  But as I understand it, they're going to be acting as a publisher in this case.  I mean, they don't have an established team to develop this kind of game.  It takes a long time to build that experience, so that means they will either:

* Outsource the work (either publicly or silently)

* Buy a studio with the experience (!!!

Whatever the beef, I think BI made the announcement early so that people will adopt a wait and see approach should OFP2 come out before ArmA2.  This was very smart, and Codies have a real problem on their hands.  Codies have to come up with a completely new game, from scratch, with resources and skills they don't have.  Money can't buy what doesn't exist.  Not many studios in the world have the kind of experience to produce this sort of game (hence, its use as VBS1 & 2 by militaries around the world).

There's a real dangerous amount of pressure on both BI and Codies in this situation, and that makes me nervous!  I just hope that BI have the support from their customer base to take their time with ArmA2.  My chief fear is that competition will result in a quicker development cycle, because ultimately, thats going to be the easiest way to reduce the other's sales.

EDIT: It is still quite possible that OFP2 is vaporware at this stage... just an attempt by Codemasters to damage the sales of QG and ArmA2. Who knows? But whatever happens I remain to be convinced its a good thing, for me as a modder and customer anyway.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

OFP sold over a million copies, so there is definitely a big market for the style of game. Since OFP2 and ArmA2 are both coming out on consoles it's likely that even more people will "discover" the war simulation genre and become fans.

Quote[/b] ]from everything I've read/heard, OFP2 won't be "open" for addons/mods like OFP/ARMA.

Reread the article, and you'll see they do want to include all the things that the OFP community loved, including the moddability.

[Sennacherib 0]

yeah, i have read also that

[DVD 0]

EDIT: It is still quite possible that OFP2 is vaporware at this stage... just an attempt by Codemasters to damage the sales of QG and ArmA2.

Bohemia damaged their own reputation with ArmA 1 more than Codemaster could do in 1000 years.

[DBO_ 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, you're technically right. But as I understand it, they're going to be acting as a publisher in this case. I mean, they don't have an established team to develop this kind of game. It takes a long time to build that experience, so that means they will either:

Strange they should outsource , they advertised for staff ,for this game 18 month or so ago and the positions where filled iirc.

plus its there neon engine there using isn`t it and they have had all those people working on the game , it dosent add up that they would not publish it ?

I guess the world of gaming has always been a strange one

even stranger the jobs are still on the board for physics programmers etc lol.

click on developer here

[rocket 9]

Quote[/b] ]OFP sold over a million copies, so there is definitely a big market for the style of game. Since OFP2 and ArmA2 are both coming out on consoles it's likely that even more people will "discover" the war simulation genre and become fans.

Good point, well raised! In this situation I would be concerned with the impact of designing a title to be released on both Next-gen Consoles and the PC. Porting to console is very different from designing the title for both. I work at a console game developer myself, and developing PC titles is vastly different from console titles. I suspect, given timeframes, Codemasters would look at developing concurrently.

While MMO's have helped PC Game sales, the figures are decreasing such that PC game sales represent a quarter of that what console games sell (see article). I suppose my point is that I see this type of gaming as a niche market, and stiff competition can destroy (or water-down) niche markets in this industry (try finding a publisher to fund a Turn based strategy title that isn't Civilizations!. The antural choice would be to develop a title for the console primarily, but naturally this would see some serious comprimises.

Quote[/b] ]Reread the article, and you'll see they do want to include all the things that the OFP community loved, including the moddability.

I'm quite sure they do want to include everything, and then some more too. If OFP2 failed to be delivered on time or with the exactly what the publisher/developer wanted, it wouldn't exactly be the first time this has occured within the gaming industry. Making a good game requires: Talent, Time, and Money.

At the end of the day, this is all entirely my speculation. But I would say, buyer beware... imagine if EA Games was "competing" (aka buy-or-break) in the publishing of an OFP-esque title?

[Thunnder Bunny 0]

Hmmm.. guess I'm the only one that remembers how codemasters marketed OFP here in the states....A magazine add or 2 and thats about it.

But now that I'm reading the US PC GAMER interview where they take full credit for the success of OFP....is that what happens when you own the IP/ (intellectual property) but do none of the work?

And they still are extremely vague about MODS. And they admit the video is a target to shoot for, not the end product....Killzone2 flashbacks anyone?

[Average Joe 0]

Today as posted in the codies forum from RFT the pr guy

Quote[/b] ]Fans in the US should check out the new issue of Gameinformer for a new short preview.

Anybody had a looksee?

[Journeyman 0]

But now that I'm reading the US PC GAMER interview where they take full credit for the success of OFP....is that what happens when you own the IP/ (intellectual property) but do none of the work?  

Not quite so! Most of the campaign, cut-scenes, voice acting etc was Codies work. This was proved too by the pathetic attempt at a campaign by BIS in ArmA!

The idea that this sort of game is still revolutionary is just 'old thinking'. When OFP was first released the whole concept of being able to do so many things in a game like OFP was indeed revolutionary and BIS did a marvellous job at pulling it off. But technology has moved on since then, and there is now no reason on Earth why an established company like Codies could not do much better. They have the experience, they have the financial and technical resources and best of all they have one 'kick ass' of an engine! This new engine alone will be the selling point for me!

What sort of modding community it will have remains to be seen, but if the boxed game is well prepared this won’t matter that much to most.

ArmA was a big let down for many including myself. … True it was never supposed to be OFP 2 but it never even made OFP 1.5! Too much effort was put into making it more than it should have been and thus acquiring too many new bugs. Not enough effort was put into it to make it a good successor to OFP. What OFP needed was a completely new engine to give it a completely new feel without ruining the ambitious virtual military simulation package. That ‘something new’ was NOT in ArmA it 'might' be in ArmA 2, but it will definitely be in OFP2!  

[suma 8]

Not quite so! Most of the campaign, cut-scenes, voice acting etc was Codies work. This was proved too by the pathetic attempt at a campaign by BIS in ArmA!

This is really not true. The campaigns and all missions for both CWC and Resistance were our work. Codemasters provided voice recording for them.

Another addon campaign, Red Hammer, was developed by Codemasters, but the two campaigns I have already mentions were done by us.

[JdB 151]

Not quite so! Most of the campaign, cut-scenes, voice acting etc was Codies work. This was proved too by the pathetic attempt at a campaign by BIS in ArmA!

This is really not true. The campaigns and all missions for both CWC and Resistance were our work. Codemasters provided voice recording for them.

True, Red kite was only partially correct, however that voice acting by Codemasters that you mentioned was one of the reasons I liked CWC and RES so much

Alot of mods have done great missions and campaigns, but only a few have given proper voice acting to go with them, and that sets them apart from the rest, just like a game's campaign with poor voice acting has trouble sucking the player into the story for any development team, whether it is a free mod, or a paid team like BIS.

[rocket 9]

Alot of mods have done great missions and campaigns, but only a few have given proper voice acting to go with them, and that sets them apart from the rest

I totally agree about voice acting in mods! Its something I want to develop when I get to a point I'm happy making complete mods. The key I think is to start small, finish complete. I think mod development (and commercial development too) should be less ambitious than most aim for.

Small steps, and do them well. For this reason I am exceptionally happy with ArmA. It is a small and solid step in the right direction, at a complex time for PC Games (Vista/DX10).

I always try and think things through to the "end game" when it comes to publisher/studio development of titles, asking myself who is doing what and why. Game development is more cut-throat and difficult than any other industry I have worked in... studios live and die by the seat of their pants!

[sputnik monroe 102]

In the end I hate to say it but mods are over rated. 99% of all OFP mods were failures and a waste of time. To be honest FDF and WGL were really the only two successes I can think of. Some mod team's tank, island, or soldier pack that has no missions is a waste of every ones time and effort and never helped this game continue on.

In short 1. any addon that's file size was larger than the total file size of all missions made for it combined was a failure and 2. Addons in my opinion really didn't help the life span of this game (the screenshot thread doesn't count).

Mods can be cool but they are over rated, I'm much more interested in a solid base game than I am in a pile of crap that needs improved with addons.

[Dwarden 1124]

fail? CSLA ECP BAS CoC SebNam etc ...

[Thunnder Bunny 0]

And how old is OFP? If it was just another disposable game that relied only on the main game story, would any of us still even be here? Don't get me wrong OFP's stories were great, but are people still playing it for the story after 5 or more years?

My answer , no.

Addons and mods are peoples way of contributing to a game they (like / love)....not just trying to improve it.

Oblivion for the PC would be an excellent candidate for pro mods and addons. On the 360 it's all but forgotten , but the PC still has people buying it ,and modding for it.

My copy of (Bioshlock...not misspelled ) will end up in the trash if some mods or a really good expansion don't come out soon. But OFP and ARMA will always have a place in my collection, and hard drive.

If OFP2 and ARMA2 have modability, and are good games, so will they.

But it all comes down to the eye of the beholder, and different opinions I guess.....plus I'm drunk right now

[DBO_ 0]

Quote[/b] ]In the end I hate to say it but mods are over rated. 99% of all OFP mods were failures and a waste of time.

Lmao thats the most subdued list to prove a point i ever saw.

what aout the animation mods(GRA) the effects mods(ecp) the themed mods (ffur) etc etc.

i kinda very loosely see your pont but i would say 10% of mods failed not 99% . and i guess of the 10% that failed 99.9% of those addon makers went on to better things like joining bigger mods.

[maxqubit 1]

I prefer PES2008 over an 'soccer mod'