Devs! Please return the control of the tank from the commander, as it was before!

[mickeymen 324]

52 minutes ago, lexx said:

Your argument would only be valid if we could tell the driver to rotate X° to direction Y, but we can't and if we could, we probably had yet another cluttered interface menu that would slow down the player.

The reality with the old system was: Move left, left, left, right, right, STOP. Backwards, backwards, STOP. Forward, STOP.... and then you probably still weren't standing in the right spot.

 

In general, my problem is not in the steppes of reality!

The main conclusion that I have is that  - player-commander lost the feeling that the tank is drives by means another person (realy driver)

Can you understand this!?

In reality, it is the other person drives the tank, but not the commander do it,  I hope with this nobody will not argue...

 

 

1 hour ago, oukej said:

The feedback for the new control has been positive so far.

 

 

@oukej there is no point arguing with you and others. If everyone likes the arcade control then - enjoy!  

 

Just one question - Can the player by any means return the old control of the tank. Is it technically possible or not?

 

Is this possible? I will be happy to return it for myself

[lex__1 422]

1 hour ago, mickeymen said:

You were unhappy before, waiting for the commander to say his command and you prefer that in the new version the commander can send an instant telepathic signal to the driver !? Do you want the driver to understand the commander for 0.001 seconds!?  LOL!  LOL! LOL! What are we talking about? Then play in Unreal Games. Such solution not for sim-game!

The most part of time, the commander of the tank carries out a role of the driver of the tank, and it has bothered me long ago. The driver couldn't execute correctly any commands of movement, for any period. It created more problems, than positive results.

Unfortunately, such behavior of AI couldn't create feeling of realism.
Who aspires to realism can't experience difficulties with a new control system where in the tank there will be no AI, the driver of the tank always the player in a game.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

40 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

 

I did not even dream about  100% realism! Give at least 50%! The new driving system does not even have 5%!

 

 

Why not employ another player to drive? AI are not able to provide accurate communication & coordination. If you are after realism you can only really get that with other players as crew.

[mickeymen 324]

21 minutes ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

Why not employ another player to drive? 

 

Only for multiplayer

 

21 minutes ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

AI are not able to provide accurate communication & coordination.

 

I already said how it can be explained for player.Please  Look above!

I'm sure that in real life a human driver would also be not able to provide jewelry accuracy, since we are dealing with a rough vehicle, but not with light sport car!

It is a tank and it can not have jewelry accuracy in its movements!

The main reason for me - is limited visibility for the driver and lack of an engine from the Mercedes SL class ;)

[Strike_NOR 898]

@mickeymen

 

It is very clear to us that you are personally very invested in the idea of delay, but in all honesty, you are still restricted to tapping buttons to communicate with the AI. The result is a synthetic "human delay" which is very wonky. Standing in 3rd person, watching a tank being commanded by player and driven by AI, looks like someone learning to drive a tank for the first time. Mostly.

 

Oh, and try switching about. If you are the driver, with AI commander. He doesnt say "Forward, stop, left, right forward, stop". He says "All, move to. "House" 200m, two o clock". And you figure out how to get there.

 

If you want the best possible setup for a tank (hull down, angled armor, etc) you HAVE to either : Have amazing AI that know what is the best tactical solution - OR - do it yourself.

 

Before, you had to switch to driver, do it yourself, switch back to gunner/commander and PRAY that the AI driver didn't move, causing your tank to backflip due to explosive collision contact with objects.

 

Now? You can just go there yourself.

 

Play with human crew for maximum realism.

 

 

 

Lastly, try to see this from not only your personal taste perspective, but think that ARMA III is trying to sell to large masses of people. Do you think the majority of the arma players would share your view?

[mickeymen 324]

@Strike_NOR Thanks for friendly tone, despite the fact that I am in opposition here

 

20 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

 

Lastly, try to see this from not only your personal taste perspective, but think that ARMA III is trying to sell to large masses of people. Do you think the majority of the arma players would share your view?

 

Above, No one supported me probably that means - all is happy,  but I do not impose my point of view on anyone, I already said this:

 

57 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

 

@oukej there is no point arguing with you and others. If everyone likes the arcade control then - enjoy!  

 

Just one question - Can the player by any means return the old control of the tank. Is it technically possible or not?

 

 

All I need- return it to yourself. I would be happy to enjoy it myself, because I mostly create missions. As for the game in multiplayer, for me it's almost impossible task for users of several mods! I use several specific mods (some are used in part) and find a adequate server with a good ping, which would use these all part of modes  - it's not possible. Also I tried to play ARMA without mods, but this does not represent for me any interest

 

 

 

[semiconductor 309]

Wait a second, wasn't that feature supposed to be optional? I remember reading something about "you'll have to check the checkbox on unit's screen to allow commander to drive", is it forced now?

[mickeymen 324]

7 hours ago, semiconductor said:

Wait a second, wasn't that feature supposed to be optional? I remember reading something about "you'll have to check the checkbox on unit's screen to allow commander to drive", is it forced now?

 

I want to believe, that still there is some kind of solution. Anybody can give a hint?

[lex__1 422]

1 hour ago, mickeymen said:

 

I want to believe, that still there is some kind of solution. Anybody can give a hint?

I reminded you, earlier
 

Quote

 

ENGINE 

Added: Vehicle commanders can now control their vehicles directly by the WASD keys without AI responsibility delays (there should be no difference between driving from driver or commander positions, though AI crew still needs to be present) 

Added: Using the hasDriver = -1 parameter will now create a vehicle without a driver and with a commander who can drive the vehicle directly by the WASD keys 

 

 

[mickeymen 324]

Quote

there should be no difference between driving from driver or commander positions

 

This is the crux problem of the new control system! 

 

Quote

 

ENGINE 

Added: Vehicle commanders can now control their vehicles directly by the WASD keys without AI responsibility delays (there should be no difference between driving from driver or commander positions, though AI crew still needs to be present) 

Added: Using the hasDriver = -1 parameter will now create a vehicle without a driver and with a commander who can drive the vehicle directly by the WASD keys 

 

 

@lex_1 what's your link to? This can not restore the old driving system in any way/

 

 

[lex__1 422]

31 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

 

This is the crux problem of the new control system! 

 

 

@lex_1 what's your link to? This can not restore the old driving system in any way/

 

 

It was reported here. Perhaps another parameter value disables driving from other vehicle crews.

 

 

[kerozen 187]

No, hell no. Commanding an AI vehicles is cancerous as hell. Unresponsive and extremely annoying.

[mickeymen 324]

7 hours ago, lex__1 said:

It was reported here. Perhaps another parameter value disables driving from other vehicle crews.

 

 

Lex_1 I do not see anything there to restore the old control system. Player can only remove the driver and operate the tank without him. 

[lex__1 422]

14 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

I do not see anything there to restore the old control system. Player can only remove the driver and operate the tank without him. 

I guess it's not for settings in the game, wherever either. This is for the manufacturer of the mission. It can set the value of this parameter, which will determine the control of the machines in the mission.

[semiconductor 309]

Yeah, it seems that there's no way to get the old system back. Well, to be honest, I find the new system way much more enjoyable and while I understand that you want an option to get the old one back and I'm not disagreeing with it, I don't think that old approach to commanding should be enabled by default.

[andersson 285]

I don't want the old system back, I want the ancient system back. In OFP commanding a tank was good. 

My hope is that BI make the driver AI more stupid when I command him and do excatly what I tell him to. But I can dream and remember right....?

[mickeymen 324]

Lol! lovers of arcade upgrade more and more. I did not even suspect that you had so many!

Everyone likes the same thing! You all say the same thing - Blah-blah-blah

Nobody thinks that by supporting this update - you push the @BIS to the simplest and most primitive solution to the problem of AI-driving!

My God, you all support the most primitive solution!  Why is this necessary for the sim-game?  Instead of returning the old control-system and trying to improve it and  improve the AI-drivers,  you all turn Arma3 into an arcade.

 

The commander can not be equal to the driver! This is exactly what the BIS has done right now. 

All who are delighted with the new system, think about these words from @bis_iceman:

 

Quote

there should be no difference between driving from driver or commander positions

 

This is absurd, is it really impossible to understand? I would prefer to see in the game, stupid AI drivers and many inconveniences associated with them, but not just absurdity

 

[lexx 1364]

The AI won't be fixed up much further anymore in A3, that's pretty much given now. So there is no reason to keep the old, broken mechanic.

 

What happened before was that the player always had to switch crew position (usually Driver <-> Gunner,  as Commander is generally useless if you are playing vs. AI). That's one terrible step less, so.. = good change.

[lex__1 422]

1 hour ago, mickeymen said:

This is absurd, is it really impossible to understand? I would prefer to see in the game, stupid AI drivers and many inconveniences associated with them, but not just absurdity

I understand and share your indignation. But unfortunately, to what he said @lexx, I will add. I guess not only for me, stupid AI created more problems in the game. When the fractions of seconds affected the outcome of the battle. I was infuriated when I give the command for AI - "move back", and AI stands still, or deploys the tank 180 ̊.

The new control system is not ideal, I mentioned it here.
I hope that there is an opportunity to put in order the commands on the keys.

 

[biggerdave 56]

...I'm sorry, the old system was "realistic"? How exactly?

 

The only thing that's changed is the micro-management controls. Realistically, tank commanders don't micromanage their crews, rather than saying "go forward exactly 5 meters, then turn exactly 30 degrees left, etc. etc.", you'd get something like "Bring us up to that wall", "once we fire, pull us back to cover". Since you can't expect the AI to be able to follow commands like these, we've just been given more direct control, rather than the clunky system that's been in place since OFP to pretty much everyone's chagrin.

 

You still have proper commanding with the map/command view, if you want to sit back and let the AI do the driving.

[rowdied 44]

Can we not have the option to switch back to the old ways?

 

I don't mind the new controls for fine tuning but it was nice to have the ability to do other micro managing while the driver drove to a location you specified. IE set up your other troops to flank or even the ability to AFK and grab a beer.

 

The biggest issue BIS faces is how to make the AI do whatever the player wants without thinking independently on their own. IE a banzai charge cannot exist in Arma because of this, the AI drivers go slow over certain ground when they should be going fast and their are many more examples.

 

If BIS could get the AI to blindly follow orders when necessary, instead of relying on their own AI computations or interpretations, most AI problems the players experience could be nullified.

 

And herein lies the problem for Arma 4, can BIS accomplish this without losing the "AI feel" now of the Arma series if you know what I mean.

 

What do you guys and gals think?

 

[Belbo 462]

The direct control HAS to be disabled as soon as vehicle freelook is disabled. I can't believe how this could have been overseen - even after according feedback in the tracked vehicles thread. With vehicle freelook disabled you turn your turret with the mouse if you're commander and your vehicle if you're driver - now you turn both your turret and your vehicle as a commander which leads to completely uncontrollable behaviour.

I have the feeling that the vehicle freelook option has not been taken into consideration at all with direct control.

[mickeymen 324]

4 hours ago, biggerdave said:

...I'm sorry, the old system was "realistic"? How exactly?

 

 

Probably this is a question for me. I did not say that the old system was 100% realistic. I said that the old tank control system was only much more realistic than the new one. Can you feel the difference? Not completely realistic, but much more realistic!

 

Here is an example, let's imagine that the old system had a realism of 30%, while the new system is completely unrealistic (maybe 4%, not more) and you all can not call me unfounded because I give the facts:

 

1. The old system gave the player the feeling that the tank is controlled by another person (driver). Pay attention, in real life it is the other person (the driver) who controls the tank, not the commander! The new system of control does not give this feeling. This is completely uncontested, since the commander is completely equivalent to the driver

 

2. The old system had a small delay before the order was executed. If the commander-player said "Right" or "Left", then the subordinate AI-driver executed the order namely after the end of the voice command!  In the rael life the Voice command - this is the only way of communication, between the commander / driver. This is realistic. In the new control system, the commander manages the tank directly and without any delays, as if the driver understands the commander telepathically! This is far from even a minimal realism, But in the old system was at least this.

 

3. Within a game, there is no manual difference in the control of the tank commander/driver. In the new system of control In both cases, the player must hold down the W/A/S D buttons. By analogy with this keys, in real life the driver holds the levers of movement, the pedals and this is logical! Tell me, then what can the commander hold inside the tank in order to move it? The clear answer -  is nothing! The commander only needs to give his verbal orders to the driver and that's all. As part of the simulation, the new management is less realistic for commander because it forces him to hold the buttons. There is a simple analogy - holding the buttons, this is keeping the levers and pedals inside any vehicle.

 

4. In the new control system, After each turn, the game forces the commander-driver to automatically stop the rotation. Could this be realistic? lol! this is arcade feature. In the old system, the commander himself must be stopped theany  rotation, by means of a voice command. In real life, the same thing happens!

 

 @biggerdave this points special for you) Is that enough for you?

 

The old system was much more realistic, although it was less accurate.

Why do I say so long in my ticket? I would like to see Arma as realistic sim-game, so it would not be like CallofFuckBattleField. 

 

Old control from commander, in the Arma was a unique tank control, which does not exist in any game of the genre!

It was so original! We are could try to improve it (add additional subtle commands for AI-driver or try improve Ai in general), but do not delete!

 

 

 

[lexx 1364]

I am curious how other tank-sim games are handling this. I've never played any other, to be honest.

[blackburnrus 31]

Devs, Please, make the new system to be optional, without replacing the old one
there is no feeling to be commander now, I'm feeling like a driver.