Steam workshop policing is meant to work how?

[benargee 20]

RHS policy doesn't allow any content (in part or in full) being uploaded on Steam. I am dealing with that part via DMCA takedowns myself.

I'm against other people uploading other people's content, but I would really like to see more mod creators upload their mods to the steam workshop!

[PuFu 4591]

I'm against other people uploading other people's content, but I would really like to see more mod creators upload their mods to the steam workshop!

good, then see if you can change Steam EULA that has content creators share their IP rights with Valve...

[lumnuon 295]

good, then see if you can change Steam EULA that has content creators share their IP rights with Valve...

Can´t BI do anything to change it? Other people won´t stop to upload other mods until the big mods are available on the Workshop. I believe most people know how to use the collections but it just doesn´t make sense to use them right now because the most important mods are not available right now (for example ACE3 and RHS). The Workshop is a great tool to keep mods updated so a change in the EULA would be very appreciated.

[PuFu 4591]

Can´t BI do anything to change it?

I really doubt it, since the EULA is for steamworkshop in general, not for one particular product.

There are 2 issues with the Steam EULA

1. it is written to cover every possible lawsuit. Although i am pretty sure that Valve doesn't have an intention to use addon creators work in their own commercial products just like that without prior consent and remuneration, based on their own EULA, they are 100% allowed to do it since on upload you share with Valve all your ip rights - i have had my lawyer read that btw and confirm or deny it for me.

2. Unless everyone part of a mod gives their consent (it should be in written form btw) for such an upload and IP sharing, the mod cannot be legally uploaded. I am one of those that do not agree with EULA for instance (and i am not the only one btw).

Other people won´t stop to upload other mods until the big mods are available on the Workshop.

for me and RHS that is not a real problem, it is just time consuming, i am personally downloading, (i have a fast and unlimited broadband connection) files and manually checking them, i already dealt with more 12 such uploads so far, DMCA takes a 1 week or so to be reviewed, but so far every such upload has been taken down by Valve.

Btw, one can legally be held accountable for such an upload (pay a hefty fine). Also, your steam account can be suspended after a number of IP breaches, so anyone doing it is taking some real monetary risks.

I believe most people know how to use the collections but it just doesn´t make sense to use them right now because the most important mods are not available right now (for example ACE3 and RHS).

i cannot comment on ACE, but RHS does provide a real automated alternative to steam's automated download process via our updaters.

The Workshop is a great tool to keep mods updated so a change in the EULA would be very appreciated.

Again, it will simply no happen for the reasons described above. If i were Steam/Valve, i wouldn't leave my ass uncovered either so that average BoB can have his free content delivered faster...

[lumnuon 295]

I really doubt it, since the EULA is for steamworkshop in general, not for one particular product.

There are 2 issues with the Steam EULA

1. it is written to cover every possible lawsuit. Although i am pretty sure that Valve doesn't have an intention to use addon creators work in their own commercial products just like that without prior consent and remuneration, based on their own EULA, they are 100% allowed to do it since on upload you share with Valve all your ip rights - i have had my lawyer read that btw and confirm or deny it for me.

2. Unless everyone part of a mod gives their consent (it should be in written form btw) for such an upload and IP sharing, the mod cannot be legally uploaded. I am one of those that do not agree with EULA for instance (and i am not the only one btw).

for me and RHS that is not a real problem, it is just time consuming, i am personally downloading, (i have a fast and unlimited broadband connection) files and manually checking them, i already dealt with more 12 such uploads so far, DMCA takes a 1 week or so to be reviewed, but so far every such upload has been taken down by Valve.

Btw, one can legally be held accountable for such an upload (pay a hefty fine). Also, your steam account can be suspended after a number of IP breaches, so anyone doing it is taking some real monetary risks.

i cannot comment on ACE, but RHS does provide a real automated alternative to steam's automated download process via our updaters.

Again, it will simply no happen for the reasons described above. If i were Steam/Valve, i wouldn't leave my ass uncovered either so that average BoB can have his free content delivered faster...

Just to make sure you get my statement right: I really don´t think it should be ok to violate the EULA and upload other peoples work. The thing I wanted to say is that you guys will have to keep up with ILLEGAL uploads as long as Steam is not updating it´s EULA. Again, I think you are completely in the right, Steam shouldn´t get all your IP rights. I just think Steam should change their EULA already and I also think that the Workshop could be a great tool if all the modders would have a proper EULA they can consent to without losing their rights on their content.

[PuFu 4591]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=467190071&searchtext=

CUP, XCAM, A3L, 3CL, DAR

[.kju 3240]

What confuses me why no one in the community really seems to bother about the situation and BI seemingly not really doing much about it.

If stuff like this happened within the community, there has always been a huge outright (rightly so).

Does almost no one care any longer or people dont believing that putting pressure on BI would help?

[St. Jimmy 272]

;2956469']What confuses me why no one in the community really seems to bother about the situation and BI seemingly not really doing much about it.

If stuff like this happened within the community' date=' there has always been a huge outright (rightly so).

Does almost no one care any longer or people dont believing that putting pressure on BI would help?[/quote']

Yeah this is kind of the same thing as DayZ public server abuse. I'm just mouth open wondering why community needs to keep these tidy and give reports when BIS should change their policy. Too many things to report that can keep coming back easily.

[PuFu 4591]

I think there are several issues here, and the reasons the average user is not concerned. I cannot and will not comment of the creators side of things, and why they do not protect their own IPs when regarding Steam, although they do in all other instances (btw, this steam shit is really really time consuming if you wanna take down some stuff, because there are little to no admins for the A3 workshop - afaik it is only david - and because in order to take it down, you need to get into a discussion directly with steam, and not BI)

1. It is not perceived as a breach of IP rights. It is simply perceived as a better, more automated mirror for the content by most. the communities have long been hosting their own squad/clan's packs (using six, yoma, synk or simply on their own servers) that they don't really understand (because no one actually reads those EULAs anyways) that in order to upload something on steam you need to own the content being uploaded.

2. The ones like me or you are the bad guys here - IE (my case): "since you don't want to upload that content you made by yourself, i'll upload it myself for my own community, what's wrong with that?" or "why do you wanna take this down???! Will only make it more easily accessible and you'll have more downloads!!" (as if i am making a buck out of those downloads...)

3. Very few understand the power and use of collections. They just do it the same way they have always done it - re-upload everything for their own use, even if it is already on the workshop

4. As david told me, BI actually would prefer everyone to have their mods on steam, i can only guess one of the main reasons is easier management and automation for the user (although the server doesn't tell the client it needs mod X and mod Y in order to join, nor does it download everything you need for you via steam on join....yet)

I was actually expecting a blog, a tweet and/or a facebook comment on the subject from BI. I doubt that will happen anytime soon btw.

Edited June 23, 2015 by PuFu

[bad benson 1733]

i was just wondering if it would make any difference, if you could host your stuff yourself and steam would be able to treat that external link properly. just a thought i had just now, didn't think it through, might regret posting it later ;)

like treating the workshop more like moddb where you have your page with all the info and videos and all that goodness and then you provide the link with maybe a standardized format (rar or something with a certain folder structure).

atm i'm not really sure if steam does all the legal ass covering because they host the stuff literally themselves or if it is simply the association of showing the content on their pages that already requires that.

i guess i'm dreaming of a middle way where creators have still full control over the files and are responsible for their contents (and thus carry the "legal burden" themselves) but still the download would be automated and centralised on steam. like addonsync and all these other things clans use with their own servers but linked with steam and the game.

although in reality i don't think it would keep people from reuploading who like to mess with the files. but atleast it might get more creators on board and eliminate the "need" for some people to reupload stuff so their lazy ignorant friends don't have to click through some downlod links and install some files into certain folders :p

[Defunkt 431]

The Steam EULA is absurd, nobody in their right mind would submit anything of value on those terms.

[kklownboy 43]

I never use, look, our care about steam workshop.

Pufu has the best reason ; "It is simply perceived as a better, more automated mirror for the content by most". I think "most" is/are basically "younger" "millennials , who are just too wacked to do much of any thing more than a click on there phone, and wouldn't pay for anything, unless its a "Steam" sale.... a generation of console "looter" types. Every generation has them, but they are the majority in this new group. Steam knows this demographic and is going to monetize the f out of them with easy stealing of IP... I feel sry for you guys. But I am not a IP police man... that should be Steams job.. and they wont budge unless it hurts them. This was predicted back in the Pre Alpha thread...

[soulis6 24]

Pufu has the best reason ; "It is simply perceived as a better, more automated mirror for the content by most". I think "most" is/are basically "younger" "millennials , who are just too wacked to do much of any thing more than a click on there phone, and wouldn't pay for anything, unless its a "Steam" sale.... a generation of console "looter" types. Every generation has them, but they are the majority in this new group. Steam knows this demographic and is going to monetize the f out of them with easy stealing of IP... I feel sry for you guys. But I am not a IP police man... that should be Steams job.. and they wont budge unless it hurts them. This was predicted back in the Pre Alpha thread...

This sounds like the old 'My generation is so much better than the new generation' line, a.k.a. the Golden Age fallacy.

No, 'looter' types is not a thing, the reason people (not just young people) only buy things on Steam sales is because it makes no sense as a consumer not to anymore, for multiple reasons; mostly due to the supply of games rapidly surpassing demand. Most people I know have so many unplayed games in their steam backlog, that there's no incentive or reason to purchase most until they're on deep discounts at a later time. The truth is we just have too many games out right now for people to consume, and as a result most developers put their game up on these sales to try and make enough to make any sort of profit at all.

[Dwarden 1124]

as I already several times said, it's crucial that IP owners use DMCA takedown reports route,

next to report here and normal report on the workshop item (3 different reports, only DMCA one has some legal weight)

the normal reports and reports here I read on intervals and flag those violators are incompatible with warning of rules breach

[PuFu 4591]

yeah, the discussion wasn't about the procedure, but about the general approach of both users and creators alike regarding steam

[andersson 285]

as I already several times said, it's crucial that IP owners use DMCA takedown reports route..

Again and again and again and forever?

There should be some way to lock uploads. Valve check the bisign or something similar so when a user, in good faith or not, tries to upload an addon that is blocked on workshop by the IP owner a message will pop up that it is not allowed.

OR if there could be a check from Valve to see if an addon is already uploaded or not then they could avoid multiple uploads of the same addon (first one from IP owner and then noone can upload anymore that addon) and also block addons if a list is sent in by the IP owner.

Something need to change. What happens when an addon maker can't keep up or is just fed up with constantly checking Steam Workshop and sending DMCAs? Unless I misunderstand something I guess this will continue forever as it' is now?

[haleks 8206]

as I already several times said, it's crucial that IP owners use DMCA takedown reports route,

next to report here and normal report on the workshop item (3 different reports, only DMCA one has some legal weight)

the normal reports and reports here I read on intervals and flag those violators are incompatible with warning of rules breach

Again and again and again and forever?

[...]

Something need to change. What happens when an addon maker can't keep up or is just fed up with constantly checking Steam Workshop and sending DMCAs? Unless I misunderstand something I guess this will continue forever as it' is now?

Andersson makes a point, not everyone has the energy or the time to keep an eye on the workshop everyday.

More importantly, having to check for addon thieves on a regular basis is not a normal situation - I keep delaying the release of my current project by fear of this...

And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one; in my humble opinion, the workshop situation is making more harm than good to the modding community.

[Dwarden 1124]

Again and again and again and forever?

There should be some way to lock uploads. Valve check the bisign or something similar so when a user, in good faith or not, tries to upload an addon that is blocked on workshop by the IP owner a message will pop up that it is not allowed.

OR if there could be a check from Valve to see if an addon is already uploaded or not then they could avoid multiple uploads of the same addon (first one from IP owner and then noone can upload anymore that addon) and also block addons if a list is sent in by the IP owner.

Something need to change. What happens when an addon maker can't keep up or is just fed up with constantly checking Steam Workshop and sending DMCAs? Unless I misunderstand something I guess this will continue forever as it' is now?

total nonsense, anyone can upload to workshop anything if they really want (SDK is ITW (too many indies), API is documented, reversing rest is all around interweb)

if you lock the hashes / signatures ,

they repack it or simply post newer/older version not locked etc.

so w/e you think about, it's impossible to achieve in actual system and outside our control

[gammadust 12]

so w/e you think about, it's impossible to achieve in actual system and outside our control

I am not sure the response you're giving actually addresses the possibility of a modder which explicitely wishes to disallow Steam distribution to provide their signed key to a Steam mantained database against which future uploads would be checked. Does it?

Because, if i understand correctly, this alone could diminish what i think consists in the most part of violations, those that happen in good faith or ignorance of a mod authors' whishes (nobody reads licenses right?)

Imagine:

Unable to upload this content. This content's author has explicitely prohibited distribution on this platform. Please obtain explicit permission from this author (contact link).

It is true that a sufficiently motivated imposter could circumvent by self-resigning the mod. But this could actually help flag these steam users, once they are identified violating the content original licenses, and significantly reduce the number targets for future uploads inspection. These user handles kept undisclosed internaly to Steam yet a list of the uploads themselves made public for wider community inspection, reducing the effort of the most interested.

Maybe this is an idiot idea, but i do think there should be a way to help sanitize Steam Workshop listings, and reduce the burden on the author's legitimate concerns.

---

On another note, i am quite satisfied with Steam's iniciative of providing an "official IP violation procedure" via their hosted DMCA take down notice, which only recently i become aware of via this thread. Kudos to those involved.

Edited June 25, 2015 by gammadust

[Dwarden 1124]

again you asking for something the system don't know and can't do ... yes I would like to have ability to block hashes but who would control it

Valve, we, public, first serve ? if not us, what happens if someone submit hashes to block competition etc ...

easy said, absolute nightmare to get it done right

[evromalarkey 150]

Maybe warning message before uploading in publisher would be enough? Something like "You should only upload content that is your own, do not upload work of other people, otherwise it will be deleted."

That would help a bit, at least with the uninformed people

[andersson 285]

total nonsense, anyone can upload to workshop anything if they really want (SDK is ITW (too many indies), API is documented, reversing rest is all around interweb)

if you lock the hashes / signatures ,

they repack it or simply post newer/older version not locked etc.

so w/e you think about, it's impossible to achieve in actual system and outside our control

Sure, everything is possible, and some things are impossible. Not arguing with that. So that will mean "again and again and again and forever" I assume?

[haleks 8206]

Maybe warning message before uploading in publisher would be enough? Something like "You should only upload content that is your own, do not upload work of other people, otherwise it will be deleted."

That would help a bit, at least with the uninformed people

Agreed, that would be a first step in the right direction.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Steam collections should be advertised better for users. I remember BIS mention it but maybe it needs to be almost shoveled in some people throats and show them how to do them.

Though seems like it isn't really too easy to make those. Took me 20mins to figure out things :D So guide how to use those effectively is really needed.

Effectively adding collections in your favorites to see what mods you need to launch is the way to do it. Need to add even your own collection to favorites to see them in the same place as others. Hardest part was to find my own collection...

Edited June 25, 2015 by St. Jimmy

[lumnuon 295]

Steam collections should be advertised better for users. I remember BIS mention it but maybe it needs to be almost shoveled in some people throats and show them how to do them.

Though seems like it isn't really too easy to make those. Took me 20mins to figure out things :D So guide how to use those effectively is really needed.

Effectively adding collections in your favorites to see what mods you need to launch is the way to do it. Need to add even your own collection to favorites to see them in the same place as others. Hardest part was to find my own collection...

While it would be a nice to have, it doesn´t seem to be the Problem. As far as I noticed most IP infractions on the Workshop are Mods that are NOT available on the Workshop, therefore you can´t add them to a collection. The Problem could only be solved with a) a system that detects IP breaches, which is impossible according to Dwarden. b) A change in the EULA to allow mod authors to upload their content WITHOUT giving their rights to Steam.

If I missed something I apologise and please correct me