Advanced Helicopter FDM Feedback

[armored_sheep 56]

I agree that the limits are now not properly set. Technically there is a threshold set for each helicopter where number defines which force will rip the blades off. If you have some reference about maneuvers that should be possible in real life but in game the forces make the rotor disappear, please post them here. tx in advance

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

I agree that the limits are now not properly set. Technically there is a threshold set for each helicopter where number defines which force will rip the blades off. If you have some reference about maneuvers that should be possible in real life but in game the forces make the rotor disappear, please post them here. tx in advance

2:03 hope this helps. as with this being an attack helo that is for engaging other helis, it needs the extra capability as shown in videos. this video pretty much highlights everything you need for the comanche. will try fond more for the others. Edited September 26, 2014 by Sterlingarcherz101

[machineabuse 11]

Advanced FDM is now essentially unplayable without analog controls. With keyboard inputs it was previously kind of possible to get away with binding Shift+collective up/down to quickly make fast collective inputs. Now using that instantly rips the rotors off the top of the helo and of course the tail rotor is the other victim :)

I understand that the new FDM is made primarily with analog controllers in mind but perhaps at some point a look over the keyboard controls is in order. Perhaps adding a force/time curve for 100% rudder and collective inputs. That said I wonder if it is even possible to de-rotor a helo making such an input without pulling maneuvers.

[roberthammer 582]

Wow those really weak tail rotors even on Kajmans coaxial rotor - on Mi48 you cant even use the tail rotor force or you will break your heli

anyway rotors shouldn't break this easily just doing basic stuff tho , these aint civ weak helicopters in which you must be careful what you doing

[blackpixxel 53]

I also don't think that it is realistic that rotorblades will instantly leave the aircraft.

What about this idea to make rotor/mechanic damage more interesting for gameplay:

When you have a damaged rotor, there could be a constant input to a random direction. The more damage the rotor got, the more noticeable is the input. So the pilot would have to counter this which would make the helicopter a bit harder to fly (Or do manual trim). Only when the rotor is red the blades should disapear.

While this is not a realistic solution, it is still much better than having this 100% functional OR destroyed system.

[tinter 186]

Does anyone else experience CTDs when crashing the helicopter? It seems to happen when the helicopter flips upside down and the main rotor is on the ground.

[Anachoretes 10]

Tinter Mohawk, Kajman, Hellcat. Crash after "landingflip". But. Why helo starting to burn after flip? Another question.

Advanced FDM is now essentially unplayable without analog controls.

I think, it's a main goal of the new FDM. And it's good. Only thrust levers for smooth control. Otherwise, just a fast suicide. What you expect?

Edited September 26, 2014 by Anachoretes

[machineabuse 11]

I think, it's a main goal of the new FDM. And it's good. Only thrust levers for smooth control. Otherwise, just a fast suicide. What you expect?

No offence, but I'm inclined to disagree that the sole intention of the Advanced FDM is to create an elitist society of players who own HOTAS. I am giving feedback based on that assumption.

[Anachoretes 10]

No offence, but I'm inclined to disagree that the sole intention of the Advanced FDM is to create an elitist society of players who own HOTAS. I am giving feedback based on that assumption.

This FDM is optional, you can choose\create server without it. What's the point to make realistic FDM and then cut out everything for keyboard input? But shift and alt modifiers must work - probably it's a bug.

[cyruz 103]

I think that Anachoretes (and probably others) don't want to see the flight model dumbed down for kb users who don't have granular inputs. If you were serious about flying you'd have proper controls. I wouldn't say this is being elitist as you can get a stick/HOTAS for a reasonable amount of money and you don't need a Warthog TM for A3 use.

However it should retain basic functionality across all input platforms without insta-killing your bird.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

Does anyone else experience CTDs when crashing the helicopter? It seems to happen when the helicopter flips upside down and the main rotor is on the ground.

testing this morning. was In an Orca , crashed while doing a hard landing for testing. hit the ground bad as intended. was on fire, but as it rolled over a rock the game froze.

[machineabuse 11]

However it should retain basic functionality across all input platforms without insta-killing your bird.

To cut a long, unnecessary discussion short; this. Considerations for keyboard input and "dumbing down" are two different things. If doing nothing more than pressing two keys for a second causes the main rotor to break I'm inclined to say there's something wrong flight yoke or no.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Machineabuse

[gatordev 219]

What about this idea to make rotor/mechanic damage more interesting for gameplay:

When you have a damaged rotor, there could be a constant input to a random direction. The more damage the rotor got, the more noticeable is the input. So the pilot would have to counter this which would make the helicopter a bit harder to fly (Or do manual trim). Only when the rotor is red the blades should disapear.

While this is not a realistic solution, it is still much better than having this 100% functional OR destroyed system.

This isn't really how real helicopters operate, though. If there's a mechanical failure on the rotor head (vice a hydraulic one), the result is very quick and decisive. When something is spinning at ~200+ to 300 RPM, damage occurs in less than a minute.

It's unfortunate that there's a yet another option that doesn't seem to match anything related to reality. I trust bo0ce's take on what's possible. It just doesn't seem like the various changes are matching the feedback here, which is why I still just run the game in "gamey" mode.

[aggressorblue 2]

This isn't really how real helicopters operate, though. If there's a mechanical failure on the rotor head (vice a hydraulic one), the result is very quick and decisive. When something is spinning at ~200+ to 300 RPM, damage occurs in less than a minute.

It's unfortunate that there's a yet another option that doesn't seem to match anything related to reality. I trust bo0ce's take on what's possible. It just doesn't seem like the various changes are matching the feedback here, which is why I still just run the game in "gamey" mode.

Agreed.

I understand the devs have steered clear of calling this a "sim," as a true rotor sims sits outside the scope of resources, but the features they are implementing in the name of realism seem to be answering to questions/complaints no one is asking.

I think transmission damage for pushing blades too hard was a decent compromise between what development resources allowed, and creating enough realism that pilots are properly punished for pushing their aircraft too hard.

Whats really odd to me though, is how many things ToH got right (damage model being one of them, for the most part), that A3 doesn't. There were plenty of times I landed a shakey chopper because the trans was coming apart on me, because I pushed too hard to correct a decent, for example.

So, in summary, I'll say this as dev feed back: I'd be perfectly happy if rotor damage (as just implemented) was removed completely, and the remaining month before DLC launch was put towards really dialing in the flight models.

And if you do want to play with damage models, hows about fixing the "you just brushed a tree branch at 15 mph, now you explode" side of things instead? :)

[b00ce 160]

Agreed.

I understand the devs have steered clear of calling this a "sim," as a true rotor sims sits outside the scope of resources, but the features they are implementing in the name of realism seem to be answering to questions/complaints no one is asking.

I think transmission damage for pushing blades too hard was a decent compromise between what development resources allowed, and creating enough realism that pilots are properly punished for pushing their aircraft too hard.

Whats really odd to me though, is how many things ToH got right (damage model being one of them, for the most part), that A3 doesn't. There were plenty of times I landed a shakey chopper because the trans was coming apart on me, because I pushed too hard to correct a decent, for example.

So, in summary, I'll say this as dev feed back: I'd be perfectly happy if rotor damage (as just implemented) was removed completely, and the remaining month before DLC launch was put towards really dialing in the flight models.

And if you do want to play with damage models, hows about fixing the "you just brushed a tree branch at 15 mph, now you explode" side of things instead? :)

Agreed. There's not much you're going to be able to do to the rotor system, unless its a semi-rigid/teeter-totter system, that will cause a catastrophic separation. The option should be available for certain helicopters (None of which are in ArmA3 at present), but it should be tied to "

". The most damage you'll do to the aircraft, in normal flight at least, is over torquing the main transmission/engines. But we would need actual indicators for the status of the torque applied to the transmission and/or XMSN temperature.

Is it possible to pull information from the RTM.xml file (<TorqueLimits maximumContinuous="11039.9" takeoff="13247.9" emergency="15897.5" />) for use in instruments? If not, what about from a config.cpp?

[cochise 10]

I can only speak for the A/MH-9 models. These seem to have more of a "weighty" feel now and overall control inputs seem more realistic. This version of the DEV in my opinion is the best so far for these two models.

[Bushmanni 10]

Is there proper analog controls for cyclic stick and pedals as mapping joystick to the keyboard commands has horrible lag. I could find analog control only for collective.

[KeyCat 131]

Wow those really weak tail rotors even on Kajmans coaxial rotor - on Mi48 you cant even use the tail rotor force or you will break your heli

anyway rotors shouldn't break this easily just doing basic stuff tho , these aint civ weak helicopters in which you must be careful what you doing

Ahh thats why my tail rotor in xH-9 was damaged repeatedly last night...

/KC

[vicx 10]

OK I just tested the dev branch FDM out again after a two week break and I found ... new features (which is normally cool) BUT because these features are being stacked on top of stuff that is maybe still broken, the new features are ... unpredictable. So I returned to this thread to see so how people might be responding and I find a lot of comments from people having experiences like me.

Actually I was hoping to see less 'yo stuff be broken' and more helpful reports but it takes time to type stuff out I suppose.

So yeah like you other guys I am getting strange behavior in certain situations in the FDM helos.

My observation from an hour in DEV FDM testing with different combinations of input from a HOTAS, mouse and keyboard.

Version 1.31.127352

Helicopter Flight Model: Advanced (duh!)

Show Gauges: Enabled

Rough Landing: Enabled

Wind Effects: Enabled

Auto-Trim: Enabled

Stress Damage: Enabled

Inputs

Saitek X55 HOTAS Throttle and Stick

Razer Lachesis Mouse

Razer Keyboard

I get broken main rotor (a bit) and tail-rotors (a lot) and CTD (crash to desktop often) almost only when I have Auto-Trim: Enabled. So yeah this looks like a culprit BUT this might not be just Auto-Trim at fault.

Next I tried being hyper-careful not to break my rotors but I got an odd behaviour where I was able to eventually saturate an input analogue axis (anti-torque pedals all the way left or right) with no effect at all on helicopter. BIG problem. The FDM model has become disconnected from the reality of my input. As soon as I feed in a tiny opposite anti-torque input the tail-rotor explodes.

I only have guesses as to what is going on. It could be that Auto-Trim combines with problematic INPUT sampling and feeds the FDM models garbage. Who knows?

I did wonder if this broken behavior is cropping up because BIS is trying to do a nice thing by supporting keyboard users who want to fly the advanced flight mode. It would be a nice thing if it could be made to work but I don't think it has much of a chance of working WELL. A realistic FDM is either demanding on input OR it is nothing (I don't think a keyboard will ever work as input to a demanding FDM. Mouse probably could work but as mentioned below I have a problem with the BIS implementation right now.)

• I tried flying MH9 with [Auto-Trim: Not Enabled] and I was able to fly with the HOTAS Throttle and Stick (Collective, Cyclic, Anti-torque and Trim) but it feels terrible. It feels like my Stick(Cyclic) input is lagging. It is flyable but feels not quite right. :/
  
• 
  
• I tried flying MH9 with [Auto-Trim: Not Enabled] flying with HOTAS Throttle (Collective, Anti-torque, Trim control) combined with Mouse (as Cyclic) and the mouse feels GREAT (the mouse seems to be the most responsive cyclic controller) BUT the manual Trim does not work properly with the Mouse input. So close :/
  
• 
  
• I tried flying MH9 with [Auto-Trim: Not Enabled] flying with keyboard. Try it yourself. :/
  
• 
  

At the moment I am judging the FDM on how I can control my helo and right now none of the input schemes are very satisfying. (If I could use Trim with the mouse(cyclic) - I'd be in the game flying right now)

I would agree with other recent comments in this thread that the MH9 when it is hovering in ground effect (especially with Mouse as Cyclic) feels quite dynamic. It feels like you are in something being held up by a whirling piece of metal over your head and this means that BIS is getting parts right, but I think they really have to sort out the input side of things before we can even start to judge the individual helo dynamics.

Just my opinion for now.

*Update*

I did some more flying and it seems like you can fly passably with the keyboard with Auto-Trim on, which means there is a lot of blackmagic being done to keep the FDM fed with a compatible input. I sincerely hope the keyboard hacks aren't the reason why HOTAS control feels so poor. You can dumb down a model and instead of becoming easier to fly - it actually becomes harder.

Edited September 28, 2014 by vicx
Update

[cochise 10]

The problem that a lot of people will face is that every time you step into a different helo your control axis curves may have to change to feel closer to the real behavior. I haven't flown a helo with auto trim so I never turn that function on. I fly nothing other than the A/MH-9 and have set my pedals to be slightly less sensitive and it seems to be a good balance. The current FM for this model feels somewhere between a hughes 300 and a 500 which is acceptable to me. I use a logitech G490, central stick, pedals and with the throttles mounted upside down on the side of a chair to mimic a collective. No offence to anyone but if you're flying the FM with a keyboard or mouse then there is no real point of even using the advanced flight model. If you want the FM to feel closer to a helicopter try it as it should be flown and I think you will surprise yourself. Then again each to his own...

[LeeManatee 4]

I use a logitech G490, central stick, pedals and with the throttles mounted upside down on the side of a chair to mimic a collective.

ahaha, and i thought i was the only one flying this way

very same joy, and very same mount ;)

---------- Post added 09-29-2014 at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was 09-28-2014 at 11:18 PM ----------

also, ghost hawk tail rotor breaks in instant atm, please fix

EDIT:

everything breaks in instant now, including MRT, and tail rotor on most of helicopters from both sides

Edited September 28, 2014 by n7snk

[the_demongod 31]

EDIT:

everything breaks in instant now, including MRT, and tail rotor on most of helicopters from both sides

It's supposed to. If you overspeed either of those rotors they will break. I agree that they shouldn't just disappear, but they are funcitoning as they should.

[roshnak 41]

It's supposed to. If you overspeed either of those rotors they will break. I agree that they shouldn't just disappear, but they are funcitoning as they should.

It's functioning as it was designed, but not necessarily as it should.

[b00ce 160]

It's supposed to. If you overspeed either of those rotors they will break. I agree that they shouldn't just disappear, but they are funcitoning as they should.

Not in the real life. You'll damage the transmission long before you do anything to the rotor system. Additionally, you'll never damage the tail rotor without hitting anything.

[quickvenge 10]

The pluses. The self leveling is gone on a number of helicopters. I didn't try all of them though. The Orca in particular is actually flyable now.

Some minor issues. I agree the xH-9 family feels more responsive in general and loving the MH-9 again. But if you look at the XH-9 cockpit there is the airspeed indicator showing the safe speed range along with the cruise speed marker around 125 knots. The sounds of it being stressed appear way before that. The Hellcat has this strong pitch forward tendency. Blackfoot seems a little heavy compared to the Ghosthawk which feels lighter and more responsive. Maybe it's supposed to be that way.

Rotor damage. Abusing your rotors can result in catastrophic failure. Although I expect transmission/engine failure instead of rotor flying off, a catastrophic failure is catastrophic failure. But I would like failures we could autorotate from after abuse. My main problem though is rotor torque modeling is still wrong for the main rotor. Also there is no visible rotor torque or RPM gauge so it's hard to predict. Until rotor modeling is fixed and instrumentation to show it, we shouldn't be penalized for it.

Hmm I don't find the anti-torque that fragile. I haven't broken it in flight. But I wasn't trying to break it. I'll be a little more abusive next time.

Also real life helicopters can take a lot more abuse than the current arma choppers. Rotors aren't as delicate as they currently are in arma.

Watch these super stallions.