Ukraine General

[Amra 10]

news was deleted from main websites, strange, first it was main news yesterday now disappeared from main websites, so could it be an intel/Ukrainian provocation ? i wish employment/roots of this guy will be revealed cause yesterday's press wrote that he was Russian council to EU, such statement can piss anyone, especially after over hundred of years of occupation

Poland was occupied by Russia :

1790s-1918

than war in 1919 Bolsheviks invasion

than 1939-1941 Stalin invasion

than 1945-1956 Stalinism

we were occupied for nearly 2 centuries and hundreds of thousands of Poles died in Syberia since 1830s

Yeah. Besides that Russians hacked your account on some arma forum.

[arttem 1]

we were occupied for nearly 2 centuries and hundreds of thousands of Poles died in Syberia since 1830s

I'm Poland (by blood) and i was born in Syberia. Thousands of Poles is true, but thousands of Russians killed with Poles the same time is true too. It seems that you don't understand the nature of that crime. You thing it was genocide only of Poles in Syberia. But you are wrong, just a little bit. It was red komissars (the same we have now in Ukraine "Right Sector") who was killing everybody. If you are Poland we kill you because you are a Poland spy, if you a Russian we kill you because you don't support revolution or regime (depends on time period). For better understanding of things wich was happening in Syberia those times you can travel there and speak with Poland, Germany and Russian people who are still living there.

One of my grand-grand-fathers was accused and killed because he was Poland spy. But his wife my grand-grand-mother was always saying that it was simple robbery from commisars side and to hide that crime they was using different "law" covers. And they have that covers, it was convenient to them, Stalin gave command to look for unreliable, but he didn't tell to kill all (what a joker), but such trifles wasn't interest anybody any more, the main thing is the order from above, it is possible to do anything further, ooook, let's go guys we are now like bosses here!!!!

Simply: bandits with the words of revolution making robberys and crime.

In 1960s all my killed relatives was rehabilitated. And family received compensation of damage.

Nobody hides information from Syberia. There are a lot of various oragnizations, including public, dealing with this issue there.

In 1939 one of my relatives Bagensky Ivan who was sentenced to death in Krasnoyarsky NKDV, was released in 1939 by order of Beria (Krasnoyarsk prosecutor's office, folder П-2954, 29.10.1939) and all Poles was released. Komissars from NKVD who was covering crimes in the mercenary purposes by the name of regime or who was saying we kill them because they are spy - was punished. And now i'm seat here and typing to you all that words.

For me it doesn't matter, it is interesting to you or not, do you trust or not. If the truth is necessary to you, go there and communicate with Poles, Germanys and Ruskies, who is still living in Syberia together now. Everybody in Russia know the roots of that drama, nobody is hiding it.

You typing things that each child in Russia knows from his born day. You realy think that you can surprise us?

If you need to find you relatives you can check "Book of memory of Krasnoyarsk Krai". http://www.memorial.krsk.ru/Articles/KP/1/0.htm

I just can't understand why you equalize Russia and the USSR. It's not the same things.

Edited March 20, 2014 by ArtTem

[Rydygier 1309]

Yes, it is also completelly beyond me why anybody possibly could, especially living in Russia, still miss this USSR hell and think about Russia that way, yet such sentiments are still living there and are surprisingly popular, isn't? Why is that? If we see pictures like this, what we should think? Russia and USSR currently aren't same thing obviously, but seems, may become much more similar soon. After all seems, that not so few still think about lands of former USSR as parts of Russia, that only by unfortunate coincidence are -temporary - independent countries. Some apparently think same way even about countries, that never was within USSR borders. Today such people may be called clowns, but who knows, how they will be called tommorow in such circumstancies. And seems, that no one there really cares, what people of these countries think, what price will be paid by them. Referendum? Russian minorities? Convenient excuses.

So, as it was said, Russia has imperial ambitions (what is stupid and incomprehensible by itself, but I already wrote enough about that) and is determined to follow them now for some reason. Blood was shed already because of them, so apparently for Russia these ambitions are worthy of human life - terrible fact. That means expansion, as usual for empires. Question - where that ambitions really ends? We know from history, that Soviet Union's ambitions was far bigger, than USSR borders, we had 1919-1920 and we had whole Cold War because of that. So what we should think now, about current Russia's ambitions, if we see described sentiments alive?

Edited March 20, 2014 by Rydygier

[arttem 1]

this

Loooooool!!!!!! The Red flag is our symbol of Victory. It's a very important symbol for us. Our grandfathers was fighting against nazi with that flag. Thats why official combat flag for army is still the Red flag. It is our tribute to them. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/RIAN_archive_802356_Military_parade_on_Red_Square_on_May_9.jpg

If you wanna say something about "commi" google communist parties. And you'll see the difference. And the Russia is the democracy country, you can swing any flag you like (except Nazi). I can say more, you can swing your own pants and nobody will tell a word. Nobody call to KGB.

But I don't argue. It's your right to trust and think anything you like.

Do you now how I differ from you? I'm not searching in google pics with tons of shi.....t. And trying to give them as argument.

Something like that http://news.nswap.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/461.jpg Nice? I think no.

[vilas 477]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1329,title,Po-Krymie-przyjdzie-czas-na-obwod-chersonski-Rosja-juz-podjela-pierwsze-niepokojace-kroki,wid,16482294,wiadomosc.html

Crimean "prime minister" claims that they think about also taking Chersonian Oblast , next part of Ukraine, cause this is road behind Russia and Crimea,

Segrei Lavrov meantime said that "Russia will defend Russians in all countries" , in Latvia , Estonia, Lithuania there is also 30% of Russians (due to Stalin politics of mixing people and changing their place of live against their will )

as said before problem is that Russians do not see anything bad in their authoritarian and imperialistic politics, and as sociologists say, it is similar to German society in late 1930s, in majority of Western/Central European societies any politician with any will to take part of other country would not be supported by more than 1% of voters, in Russia seems like 70% support Putin,

if it was opposite than such movements would be stopped by Russians itself (any anti-war riots? democratic parties like Yabloko have 0% voters)

USA society condemned Bush and pulled him off in elections, but Putin still is supported by majority,

democratic parties in Western style like Yabloko have 1% of votes (as much votes as in West have nationalists saying about invasion of other countries)

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/moskwa-zaniepokojona-sytuacja-rosjan-w-estonii-lawrow-bedziemy-bronic-naszych/jxp06

so seems from this that now Estonia is also on Putin's crosshair,

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/19/us-russia-estonia-idUSBREA2I1J620140319

people in Kremlin are very imperialistic and Russians as voters should understand it and take measures to stop aggressive foreign politics, if they want to show that they are not supporting such politics , now Kremlin has issues with Estonian language politics,

sorry, if i would live in UK i would have to learn English, if i lived in France, i would have to learn French langage, but Russians living abroad believe that others should learn Russian - this is pure nationalism,

during 1790-1914 there was thing called "rusification" - it was about forcing occupied nations to speak Russian and be in Orthodox Church,

now Kremlin want to "defend" Russians against speaking Ukrainian or Estonian ? hypocrisy :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification < first Russians were forcing others to speak Russian now they "want to defend native Russians" ? first read what Tsar was doing before saying about Estonians or Ukrainians,

basic things that Russians should learn is common sense of equality and respect to other countries:

- if i live in Russia i must speak Russian, if i live in Estonia i must speak Estonian, if i live in France i must know French, if i live in Ukraine i should speak Ukrainian, no problems with this,

if i would be looking for job in Russia first is requirement to speak Russian, if i had to make official legal action in Russia i must do it in Russian language, why the hell it doesn't rely to Estonia or Ukraine ?

- if Russia have right to keep Iskander, other nation have right to keep Patriot system?

Russian gov. action in Crimea is ugly, Russia could do it different way, without causing such shit in international situation, they could simply rise gas prices to Ukraine - no problem, who would protest ? it is Russian gas and Russia say price, noone would argue , Ukraine would than do all to make Russia please with Crimea, society in Ukraine would be angry on them and outvoted Pravy Sektor and Pravy Sektor would have 0% in voting, Russia could do it by economy, if for example Russia would offer some goods to Russians in Crimea then Russian gov. would get sympathy not anger from abroad,

but Russia used force, and this causes other sympathy/antipathy situation, usual people do not like agressors ,

Bandera lovers would never get any support from anyone if Russia would act peacefully, but Russian gov. (without Russian society stopping their gov.) acts imperialistic and now many people look at Bandera lovers rather like on victims not like on "bad guys" , in begining all people afraid Bandera movement , now people afraid of Putin , shame that Russians not see it due to their belief in Putin,

Putin is kind of guy who can start Cold War2 or WW3 if he wont be stopped by voters and not be replaced asap by someone who is democrat and respecting others,

quote: http://news.nswap.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/461.jpg

whole secret is in PROPORTIONS

every nation has nationalists, in some countries they get 11% like Zyrinovsky + 20 % commies who support Stalin + many percents of those who suuport Putin nationalism

in my country such men like those football hooligans are:

- batoned by Police every time , usual people do not like them,

- have 1% of votes, limit to get to Parliament is 5%, so even if they had 4%, they would have ZERO in parliament ,

for me it is simple - i live in my country and i do not want to be invaded or forced by anyone (from Russia to international big corporations)

in Russia:

- they baton others, society hails them, was Russian police beating Zyrinovsky supporters any time ?

- they have 11% (Zyrinovsky) + many percents of Puting similar rhetoric + Stalin suporters

such ultra-parties will be dangerous in future Ukraine, but their raise will be only due to Putin actions, cause every form or oppression would call more support for them, Russians must understand (any by voting force it on gov.) that it is other nations/states will if they want to be with west or east or noone or everyone or Isreal or Arabic countries or Burkina Faso or France or whoever they want ,

it is not Russian business what Ukrainian, Estonian, Kazakstan, Belarussian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Moldavian societies want to do with business agreements and Russian/China/USA/German relations

Edited March 20, 2014 by vilas

[Amra 10]

Wow, Vilas you're so clever. Turn off gas to Ukraine you say and make suffer our citizens as well. Then wait couple of months until bandera-lovers will cut throats of Russians in Crimea, Donbass and Kharkov. What else? Wait half-a-year and see NATO fleet in Sevastopol - city of Russian Navy Glory? No Vilas. You and whole West didn't match. Carry on.

[vilas 477]

you represent Putin propaganda

Banderas will not do any harm, if they would start, than whole world would be against them and only then Russian gov. would be justified

so far Russia broke international law and stolen other country territory and invaded other country ,

if Ukraine want to join NATO IT IS THEIR BUSINESS, THEY ARE INDEPENDENT STATE whiy is so hard to understand to Russian that other nations have right to decide what they want to join ?

[Amra 10]

you represent Putin propaganda

First of all I represent KGB. Don't forget it. It's an evil cult of ancient gods - Stalin, Lenin, Putin and Zhirinovsky.

[Rydygier 1309]

I'm not searching pictures for arguments, but for examples. And, to be clear, I'm not thinking I know all the truth here, I'm presenting my current perspective built on earlier observations, informations I was able to obtain and conclusions drawn. I am listening how you, people from Russia, see the things and I'm learning doing so. I hope, it works in both sides however.

Loooooool!!!!!! The Red flag is our symbol of Victory. It's a very important symbol for us. Our grandfathers was fighting against nazi with that flag. Thats why official combat flag for army is still the Red flag. It is our tribute to them.

I heard, Victory, yes. Very important for Russian pride, yes. For USSR perhaps it was victory, if 50 dark years of communism over half of Europe we could name a victory. If very important symbol of victory is same as USSR flag was then this is the more disturbing. Nothing to laugh here. To me it looks same, as if modern German Bundeswehra would use with pride Nazi symbols on the banners because Wehrmacht soldiers was often very brave too and very patriotic when fighting for the Fatherland. But Nazi terror and its symbols is tabu worldwide now, while Soviet, much more bloody terror and its symbols isn't. It is used to build patriotic pride of Russia instead. That's sick. If people in Russia really are building their pride on USSR criminal regime victories ("victories" for others, like Poland) and are glorifying those events and such hated symbols, then we simply can't count on any mutual understanding. For Poles entering of Red Army and half of century of consequences wasn't much better than Nazis terror. One hated tyrant in brutal way changed for another criminal, Stalin et consortes. Individual courage and herosim of some? Perhaps. But so what? Heroism in such cause isn't nothing worthy of worship IMO. Soldiers of SS was also known from their bravery. Stalin was a good friend of Hitler at first (we know stories of our grandparents, how Red Army was entering Poland in 1939. Band of dirty barbarians, they say). Only when attacked, Stalin defended and striked back. Was his Great War about something noble, or his goal was not more noble, than Germans - to expand and to gain more power? We, in Poland, early learned the truth. Jalta is remembered well. It never was about liberating anyone. It was about to expand empire. Like it starts to look now BTW.

And now you are saying, Russia on THAT is building patriotism of own nation instead of apologize very hard and throw away anything, what in any way recalls USSR past. What exactly judgement of this you expect from Pole? It may be outrageous for you and other Russians, what I just wrote. I understand if so, and assure, it isn't my intention to offend memory of any brave ancestors of anybody. But understand me well - that is point of view on these things presented by my nation. And this nation, along with several others, IMO has very good reasons to see it that way. Heroism for ill cause is nothing good, nothing to be proud of. If someone was fighting truly for own Motherland, if that was his intention - glory to him. But his brave fight was used for something very wrong. His children should be angry because of such profanation, not pride of it. This flag is for me symbol of that profanation, not of any heroism.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Rydygier

[Amra 10]

@Rydygier, if to summarize your post you're telling me that my grandfather, who fought nazis and was wounded twice (Stalingrad and Berlin) is an enslaver of Europe and Stalin's vampire. Do you really expect from me understanding of your position after that? Or from any other Russian?

[Rydygier 1309]

As I said, I will uderstand any lack of understanding from your side here. But again - I'm not denying heroism, patriotism or nobility of your or anyone's grandfather. It is question of their individual intentions, if their fight was good deed or not. The more I'm not denying, so Nazi criminals should be defeated and wiped out. I'm talking, for what ill purpose bloody efforts of all yours granfathers was used. Many people suffered long time because of that.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Rydygier

[vilas 477]

Russians simply deny Stalin and Tsar crimes, while Germans do not deny Hitler crimes (lower crimes by number by the way) , Germans payed compensation for Hitler crimes, Russian deny thinking that their ancestors could commit any crime,

it makes perfect example of Russian nationalism and egoistic imperialistic thinking

Russians were occupants from 1790s till 1918,

than when some countries won independence in WW1 then Russians were attacking those countries again (Poland, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia) and took away independency of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia which were independent states from 1918-1939/41

yes, USSR soldier was occupant on Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian , Finish and other lands,

in 1968 USSR invaded people of Czechoslovakia too ,

USSR soldiers fought Hitler since 1941, before 1941 they were Hitler allies (Ribbentrop-Molotov pact from August 1939), before 1918 Russian Tsar soldiers were occupants of Polish land, Finish land, other lands, murdering local people who didn't wanted Orthodox church or speak Russian,

Germans do not deny their history, Russians deny all the time and see themselves only as heroes, while many people from different nations died because of Stalin, Lenin, Tsars etc.

uprising in my city in 1831, 1864 were not against Martians, it was not Martians who was occupying my city till 1917, it was not Martians who was murdering people till 1956 in my city but people brought with NKVD,

Russians now are upset that in Latvia ex SSman walk in parade, what about guys who were in NKVD and parade at 9-May ?

Edited March 20, 2014 by vilas

[arttem 1]

Rubbish. Looks like that thread is invaded by radikals. I'm going out of here.

[messiahua 0]

Russia is pure evil, so true :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlLw_HyVIz0

[vilas 477]

simple comparision:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/EUROPE_1929-1938_POLITICAL_MAP.svg

map from 1938, what is visible ? Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia - later occupied by USSR and put into USSR

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/FR-WW1-1914.png

map from 1914, Poland, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia - not visible cause occupied by Russia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Estonia

deportations for Syberia of Estonians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybirak

deportations of Poles to Syberia since Tsar

as maps from 1914 and 1938 show - Russia was occupying other countries , since 1939/41 there was no Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia till 1991s

Soviet soldier was not brave heroic freedom fighter neither in 1940 attacking Finland nor in 1968 attacking Czechoslovakia

Soviet soldier was freedom fighter 1941-1945 till Berlin, if they would stop at killing Hitler regime and move back to Soviet border - we would set them monuments now as people are thankful to USA for D-Day which saved Western Europe

Edited March 20, 2014 by vilas

[Rydygier 1309]

Rubbish. Looks like that thread is invaded by radikals. I'm going out of here.

Sorry to hear. But I understand. Some truth is too hard to swollow, also for me sometimes. But think about that some day calmly and analytically, without emotions. It is so important, because exactly these things alienates our nations. It is nothing radical in fact. Well, if is, then in Poland leaves millions of "radicals". Because we still remember. Anyway, I think we went too far from main topic.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Rydygier

[Tonci87 163]

I would like to ask everybody to check his sources before posting something.

I´m looking at you Vilas. And no one should ever demand someone to be atom bombed, even if he doesn´t really mean it. That soething you don´t joke with.

And now to the pro russian faction

Do you accept that every country in the world should have the right to decide its future on his own?

[Maio 293]

Good day,

After considerable deliberation the BI Forum Propaganda and Censorship Bureau has decided the following:

1. A two (2) day administrative lock will be placed upon this thread.

2. After the lock has been lifted, the following two (2) items have been approved for posting:

• 
  
• News about the events taking place in the Ukraine as well as news containing international response to the situation.
  
• Detached interpretation of said news. Example:
  [News article] I don't think that will happen due to reason X and/or Y (third party sources to back arguments are encouraged) GOOD
  [News article] Once again X'ist propaganda. The members belonging to group X are all a bunch of.... You are a fool for posting/believing that BAD
  

No more personal attacks will be tolerated.

We thank you for your understanding.

------------------------------------------

Forum users may now resume posting.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Maio
open

[mistyronin 1181]

And after the storm, a new dispatch from Vice News!

[spooky lynx 73]

Some story about sniper rifles on maidan

[Rydygier 1309]

Klitschko in Poland said:

he dreams of European Ukraine. - We Ukrainians are Europeans, not only because of geography, but also on the history, culture, mentality - he stressed.

He also expressed gratitude to Poland and the Polish people for their help and support for his country.

According to Klitschko, reforms in Ukraine are real. He added, however, is needed moral support, economic and know-how. As judged from how Ukraine will develop in the future depends the future of the entire region.

---------- Post added at 14:51 ---------- Previous post was at 14:42 ----------

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/11,1096150-Rosyjscy-zolnierze-groza-szturmem-bazy-na-Krymie.html

Saturday Russian soldiers surrounded the Ukrainian Belbeku air base in the Crimea near Sevastopol, and made located there Ukrainian forces an ultimatum - they have to surrender within an hour, and if they do not, will start the assault.

Reuters news agency was informed about that by deputy base commander Oleg Podowałow. "We're not leaving, we'll see what kind of assault this will be" - he said.

[spooky lynx 73]

Appeal of Lugansk region Rada council to state authorities.

Original in Russian here - http://oblrada.lg.ua/content/zayavlenie-prezidiuma-luganskogo-oblastnogo-soveta-1

[Rydygier 1309]

http://www.polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/1081566,Czy-Rosja-straci-apetyt-na-Ukraine-?google_editors_picks=true

Ukraine's Prime Minister warned that Moscow intends to take Odessa. In Ukraine go the OSCE envoys, but Russia might not let the Crimea. Ukrainian troops are exhorted to desertion.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk, acting Prime Minister of Ukraine says simply - the main goal of the Russian Federation in the near future will be to gain the Odessa region. Do not, however, inform on which assumptions this claim is based. Until now, the Odessa Oblast was relatively calm. Russians exert much more pressure on the area of Kharkiv and Donetsk.

Yatsenyuk's concerns fit in with current mood in Russia. Most of the inhabitants of this country supports the annexation of the Crimea considering it for compensation of historical grudges. The most radical proponents of "protection of Russians" do not hide their emotions. A friend of Vladimir Putin, Alexander Zaldostanow on a wave of euphoria even declares that "Crimea is a start. We'll move on Kiev."

It is difficult to say whether these emotions have something in common with the real plans of the Kremlin. More and more politicians in the West, however, shares the concerns of Yatsenyuk that Russia will not confine the Crimea. Hillary Clinton, U.S. ex-secretary of state warned that according to the "Putin's logic" threathened may be "other parts of the Ukraine, but also Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia and Transnistria", because "in many places you can find Russians and Russian-speaking." Clinton assessed the recent events as a "war values​​" and said that Putin "is trying to re-demarcate Europe after World War II."

On Saturday, Russian TV "Vesti" informed about formation of self-defense units in south-eastern Ukraine, similar to forces, that operate in the Crimea. Their members are armed with firearms. According to television, to act in the districts: Donetsk, Kharkiv and Lugansk. Their leaders give to understand that they do not recognize the new government in Kiev, and hence also Ukrainian security services.

According to Kiev, Russia gathered at the border powerful forces.

Russia officially ensures that it is not interested in occupying other parts of Ukraine. President Putin said, however, that Moscow will defend the interests of Russians, with all means possible.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Rydygier

[mistyronin 1181]

To me it seems that what Putin may have in mind to use Crimea as a bridgehead to assault Odessa region, and then connect Russia to Transnistria.

( BBC ) Ukrainian military bases targeted in Crimea

[Rydygier 1309]

http://www.polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/1080907,Ukraincy-uciekaja-do-Polski-Krymscy-Tatarzy-prosza-o-azyl

32-person group of Crimean Tatars left the Ukraine and asked for refugee status in Poland. Informed the Ukrainian Border Service.

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:41 ----------

Base in Belbeku seized by Russians

Ukrainian base in Belbeku in the Crimea taken over by the Russians. Russian commandos, Cossacks and local self-defense using armored personnel carriers stormed into the base, and after a few minutes seized it - reports the special envoy of the Polish Radio Michael Zakowski.

Now Ukrainian soldiers gathered in front of one of the buildings, are now awaiting the orders of his commander.

Most likely either be brought forth outside the base, or quartered on its area waiting for the transport outside the Crimea.

Until the acquisition of base situation in Belbeku could be watched live on Espresso.tv. The transmission, however, was broken.