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Just as a heads-up, this is not fixed in the latest dev build (dunno if it was supposed to, just putting it out there). "player setFatigue 1" will not cause any noticeable weapon sway, and by simply kneeling I was able to kill a whole row of blue guys in the virtual arsenal while not even holding my breath..!

That's strange. I see a huge difference in sway speed with maximum fatigue. :confused:

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That's strange. I see a huge difference in sway speed with maximum fatigue. :confused:

Depends on your definition of huge? I mean, as I said, I can hit targets without even holding my breath. Might be dependent on the weapon, I'll try with another one.

EDIT: Tried the standard MX. Literally no sway of note. If you use the virtual reality world, the swa never leaves one of the boxes on the horizon.

Edited by Alwarren

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Depends on your definition of huge? I mean, as I said, I can hit targets without even holding my breath. Might be dependent on the weapon, I'll try with another one.

EDIT: Tried the standard MX. Literally no sway of note. If you use the virtual reality world, the swa never leaves one of the boxes on the horizon.

Well, I can't say if the sway is huge or realistic but the difference is very noticeable:

(I change the fatigue from 0 to 1 in the middle.)

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Well, I can't say if the sway is huge or realistic but the difference is very noticeable:
(I change the fatigue from 0 to 1 in the middle.)

Hm, that looks okay.. I need to re-check if I maybe tested with an older build...

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Hm, that looks okay.. I need to re-check if I maybe tested with an older build...

Mods?

Because I've never seen the fatigue sway completely missing.

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At max fatigue my weapon is swinging back and forth so wildly it's impossible to shoot anything.

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Mods?

Because I've never seen the fatigue sway completely missing.

No idea TBH' it seems to be back to normal again. Weird...

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I like the new fatigue system very much too, even got some time to get used with it. But overally firefights are much more interesting now since you need to take cover too. Not just shoot and hit targets with any bullet shot from any gun. Looking forward to try the weapon inertia additions (currently in official build).

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Yep, the fatigue system is one of the best things that has happened to arma; without it, the improved cloth/inventory-system would be rendered just smokes and mirrors. But with it, the infantry aspect of the game has gained much more depth. Managing his own loadout is finally meaningful and hence way more fun (IMHO the most important aspect is the effect on movement speed/capability, not so much effects on weapon sway or what not).

Surely this requires a bit more intelligence. While players will adapt in time, I'm slightly more concerned about the AI - especially in groups consisting of units with vastly different loadouts. There are arguably a number of reasonable ways how such a thing could be handled. Not sure if it's best to leave this to be solved by means of scripting or not though. Then again, a single generic and hardcoded "wait and regroup" might not be ideal either. And introducing yet another (rather specific) AI-behaviour setting/attribute? I don't know... Well, I'm curious what BIS has up their sleeves :licklips:

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the heated debate over whether this update is good or not should be changed to reality vs. play-ability.

I won't say I understand nuances of the this update or the intentions of the creators but based on my readings and observations I can conclude some crucial outcomes.

The Arma legacy has virtually no competition when it comes to Mil-Sims however it perpetually launches it into the FPS realm with this lack of competition.

The majority of your consumers are not the Dslyecxi's (with complete respect) of computer gaming.

Once the campaign is complete, multiplayer is the only thing left. Yes, these are your COD'ers and BF'ers who become your consumers.

Weapons sway and fatigue update creates the necessity to understand the reality of stress fire. IRL - most decent shooters can anticipate sway. weapons resting is an assist to counter sway however not standard with the current, stock mechanics (until MKS is complete in 2015). Snipers are virtually removed from the combat equation.

I assume the rebirth of A2 was the DayZ mod. Although filled with glitches it was very playable as well as made simplified (with launchers to assist) hence multi-play is furthermore the platform that will keep A3 going.

We as Admins (of 2 MP servers) and coders currently have 2 choices, On or Off. 1 choice not reality and the other hardly playable.

perhaps making such a drastic adjustment was to big of a change without the assistance of other IRL mechanics that should be a part of a Mil-Sim.

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One thing is to be a PC worrier, an other thing is to be a worrier in real life. From My stand Im glad that those to have nothing to do with each other. IN my own time, we dident have it, I would have 2 personal friends less today, if the Fatigue & Weapon Sway worked that way in real life.

My friends have both been on tour in Afganistan, one of them more than one time. Both are playing Arma 3 today and both says, they would have been dead, if it Fatigue & Weapon Sway worked that way in real life. It´s a total overkill and we dislikethe way its done.

I know some are realy found about it. I can only imagine why, but will not offend or judge any here, but the way its done is not right.

In real life we have wapon resting like elbow and hand witch may be support for walls and objects + we have stand like bipods. Where is this in Arma 3?

Edited by Otto

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I would not throw fatigue out for a the sake of rambo whiners who cannot carry MGs and rockets and be able to run like they're on steroids. Its immersive and realistically, people shouldn't be carrying that much gear. If you remove fatigue, you take away the point of having an ammo bearer and watching your gear. I remember in ACE you'd just black out and fall down instead of get tired like in Arma 3. Honestly, fatigue is really immersive and promote some gameplay such. If person doesn't like it, just turn off the fatigue. Probably best thing to have is like back when Arma 2 implemented losing gears in water (yes or no). You can add a description.ext "Using fatigue system, yes or no" instead of completely removing it.

I feel the fact that you can't move after walking 100 metres when fatigued is unrealistic. Is someone trying to tell me soldiers can't move more than 500 m before they fall over? Walking should be unimpeeded. Soldiers can do that for hours, in a desert, with rocky areas. Just ask the french army when they operated in Mali (hot hot place).

The other thing is Ammo bearers/AT/MGs, who HAVE to carry a big load, backpacks and all. Who really wants to play those when you are lagging behind the rest of your crew all the time? An MG with no backpack can only carry 1 or 2 mags. Really useful MG, that. Might as well surrender.

Edited by mamasan8

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One thing is to be a PC worrier, an other thing is to be a worrier in real life. From My stand Im glad that those to have nothing to do with each other. IN my own time, we dident have it, I would have 2 personal friends less today, if the Fatigue & Weapon Sway worked that way in real life.

My friends have both been on tour in Afganistan, one of them more than one time. Both are playing Arma 3 today and both says, they would have been dead, if it Fatigue & Weapon Sway worked that way in real life. It´s a total overkill and we dislikethe way its done.

I know some are realy found about it. I can only imagine why, but will not offend or judge any here, but the way its done is not right.

In real life we have wapon resting like elbow and hand witch may be support for walls and objects + we have stand like bipods. Where is this in Arma 3?

Could you please elaborate what exactly in the new fatigue/sway system is overkill and why? Every constructive opinion is welcome.

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Now fatigue recovery for heavy weight gear is too easy so you recover too fast almost as fast as with light weight gear! I liked that if you had max amount of gear your fatigue didn't recover almost at all.

Fatigue gain for light gear should be bit lower. Fatigue recovery for light gear is way too much the same as with heavy gear. Because this system is more about short term fatigue and not long term lighter gear should recover faster.

There needs to be more difference between light and heavy gear.

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Now fatigue recovery for heavy weight gear is too easy so you recover too fast almost as fast as with light weight gear! I liked that if you had max amount of gear your fatigue didn't recover almost at all.

Fatigue gain for light gear should be bit lower. Fatigue recovery for light gear is way too much the same as with heavy gear. Because this system is more about short term fatigue and not long term lighter gear should recover faster.

There needs to be more difference between light and heavy gear.

I agree. More specifically, there needs to be more of an immediate effect of having a heavy loadout. It isn't until you've had to run a couple km, or you have been sprinting around in combat for a good few minutes that you realize "ey should have packed a little lighter". I think that it should be somehow apparent that you are carrying alot of gear almost right from the get go.

Right now when you initially start a fight, it feels no different if you have nothing but a rifle and tshirt and shorts, or if you have MG, plate carrier, backpack, AT and 15 magazines and 5 nades. Ideally, almost immediately you should notice that you are heavily loaded. Right now that is not the case. Not sure if this is something that should be part of the fatigue system though. Maybe that would be better with weapon inertia (heavy loadout multiplies the inertia inaccuracy). I guess we will know better when it is actually released.

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I feel the fact that you can't move after walking 100 metres when fatigued is unrealistic. Is someone trying to tell me soldiers can't move more than 500 m before they fall over? Walking should be unimpeeded. Soldiers can do that for hours, in a desert, with rocky areas. Just ask the french army when they operated in Mali (hot hot place).

The other thing is Ammo bearers/AT/MGs, who HAVE to carry a big load, backpacks and all. Who really wants to play those when you are lagging behind the rest of your crew all the time? An MG with no backpack can only carry 1 or 2 mags. Really useful MG, that. Might as well surrender.

You obviously aren't walking.

Please at least learn the game's controls before trying to make feedback, learning how to move would be the next step.

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Now fatigue recovery for heavy weight gear is too easy so you recover too fast almost as fast as with light weight gear! I liked that if you had max amount of gear your fatigue didn't recover almost at all.

Fatigue gain for light gear should be bit lower. Fatigue recovery for light gear is way too much the same as with heavy gear. Because this system is more about short term fatigue and not long term lighter gear should recover faster.

There needs to be more difference between light and heavy gear.

I agree. There should be a not recoverable fatigue based on the gear weight. The unit with heavy gear should have a minimum amount of fatigue greater than 0%.

E.g. Units can carry 10 kg without extra fatigue. Anything above that should give a not recoverable fatigue. Unit with heavy gear(10kg+15kg) should have 5%(or more) fatigue in relaxed state. If he take off the extra weight then this fatigue should recover to 0%.

This is a real life behavior. You don't have to run/walk to get tired if your bag is 30 kg.

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I agree. More specifically, there needs to be more of an immediate effect of having a heavy loadout. It isn't until you've had to run a couple km, or you have been sprinting around in combat for a good few minutes that you realize "ey should have packed a little lighter". I think that it should be somehow apparent that you are carrying alot of gear almost right from the get go.

Right now when you initially start a fight, it feels no different if you have nothing but a rifle and tshirt and shorts, or if you have MG, plate carrier, backpack, AT and 15 magazines and 5 nades. Ideally, almost immediately you should notice that you are heavily loaded. Right now that is not the case. Not sure if this is something that should be part of the fatigue system though. Maybe that would be better with weapon inertia (heavy loadout multiplies the inertia inaccuracy). I guess we will know better when it is actually released.

Make sense, then loadouts become decisions other than pick all the biggest baddest ass things.

Again though, it's mission makers decision and they already have the scripting commands ni game to tailor fatigue, it's the base version that bis needs to get right and without compromising too much.

Right now on dev branch fatigue is almost 80% there/good and while it is a factor to consider its never feels near too much.

Edited by twisted

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Make sense, then loadouts become decisions other than pick all the biggest baddest ass things.

Again though, it's mission makers decision and they already have the scripting commands ni game to tailor fatigue, it's the base version that bis needs to get right and without compromising too much.

Right now on Feb branch fatigue is there and a factor to consider but nowhere near too much.

Well yeah in dev branch the heavier loadouts do make a difference but it is quite "diluted". And in the end it is always avoidable. Just don't run a long time with heavy gear. Most missions don't force you to run far distances in a limited amount of time. So really heavy gear having an effect on fatigue doesn't really hinder players who have lots of time on their hands (which is really most scenerios if you are a patient player).

But in reality even if you walk everywhere you go, when it comes to combat, having less gear is going to make it easier for you efficiently shoot, move, duck etc. etc. But this is aside from how tired you are. Even at full rested it is harder to sprint across a street or quickly and accurately engage a target down that street.

This is where arma and reality diverge. In arma it is just as easy to do all the above with or without heavy gear. Heavy gear only determines how long you can do those things, not how well you can do them. That is why I think it would be great if stuff like sprinting speed (read ONLY sprinting), sway, and weapon inertia were all influenced by how loaded with gear you are. Would give immediate and unavoidable cons to lots of gear, just like in reality. Anyhow that is all off topic.

ONTOPIC

The fatigue system is pretty good already. My biggest suggestion concerns recovery time:

I believe that the closer you get to fully rested, the slower you should recover. This is because in reality it takes along time to fully recover from tiring yourself out. You don't run until exhaustion, go prone, wait 45 seconds again and be fresh again in reality. At the same time you would be able to perform basic tasks though (sprinting and running again) - you just would no longer be 100% juiced up.

Basically the last 20% (or something like that) of your accumulated fatigue should take a lot longer to recover to represent this. For example, run 2 km and fatigue yourself to 50%. You will quickly (current rate) recover to 10% fatigue, allowing you to sprint and aim pretty much like normal. But that last 10% takes a while (like double time) to go away. If you only do a quick 50m dash and fatigue yourself to 10% its only the last 2% that is going to be hard to get rid of. Exhaust yourself to 100% and the last 20% is gonna be a bitch to recover from.

This will add more depth to "managing your fatigue". You wouldn't want to ever fully exhaust yourself because it could take along time to fully recover, but at the same time its not going to be forever for you to become somewhat effective again. Its up to you to find the balance that works best for the mission. It will make more realistic resting times, but also not totally inhibit player ability to do anything during that rest.

Also totally agree that heavier loadouts should take longer to recover as well. The combination of this and what I mention above would make fatigue something you have to seriously worry about and actively monitor, rather than the boring "sprint till you drop, drop, wait 45 seconds and repeat" process it is now. Thoughts?

Also just wanted to say that the breathing changes are really great BI. I might think weapon sway should be a bit harder to control, but I must admit what you have put out is very tight in dev branch. Its really fun to shoot, if you have the patience for it.

Edited by -Coulum-

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I really hate how artificially regular the weapon sway is. It should be randomized a bit. Not too much, so that we can keep its predictability but just a bit so that it does not feel so robotic.

Also, when your hands are injured there should be a completely random shaking and not that stupid, super-regular circling of your hands.

Gameplay-wise, it is good. Immersion/visual-wise it has a long way to go yet.

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Good point with the random shaking.

I would like to see the overall shaking less, but more random. All in all this would result in a smaller spread when firing while fatiqued, but it would be as hard as before to make precise shots.

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Could you please elaborate what exactly in the new fatigue/sway system is overkill and why? Every constructive opinion is welcome.

Sorry for not responding before now. I went up and spoke with my friends, who are professionel soldiers about it - and also playing Arma 3. And here is our short version of our thoughts.

Fatigue: A soldier is usually in good fitness. He is accustomed to the pulse comes up and is trained to handle demanding operations under difficult conditions. He has learned techniques which he can compensate for his fatigue and still perform the job satisfactorily.

Usually you are inserted before the front line and have to walk / run the last stretch. Is 1 kilometer or more. In Arma 3 he would incapacitated when he is tired. He is not in the real world. He could fight and hit its target, although he has gone or been jogging for a while already.

If he came under fire and if he was a new recruit, he would likely be a bit disoriented. As a trained soldier who has been in combat before, he'd would better be able to remain calm. He wanted to find a place from which he could return fire, or just take cover. In cases in which he seeks coverage to return fire, he will support his elbow on an object in order to stabilize its scope. This they deliberately failed to give the soldier the opportunity to do here in the game. Although there have been numerous calls to correct this, they have conscious choice to ignore this problem. It has been thought that it was better term fluctuates several feet from side to side to simulate that he is tired and slow down his speed. But this struggle is not reality in real scenario. It supports object knees or on land with elbow and hand. Not only does your fatigue sets in too early in Arma 3, it causes you an incapacitating, that is not realistic. If Arma 3 want to simulate battle on earth with trained soldier and not as a beginner, it should be changed.

IRL. If a soldier is wounded and is under fire, with chances of dying enters some other mechanisms. It is only after about half an hour, you begin to feel pain because of that your body gives you the adrenaline that stun your wounds. The psychological factor means that you are focused on survival and therefore ignore it that you are hurt and be in many cases focused on fighting for life. You are therefore more concentrated. If you are heavily wounded, then you are out of the battle of course. In both cases you also have the option to surrender.

Fatigue:

Should be much better, so the soldier is in better shape faster and can move much further without reducing his speed.

He could walk and at the same time be able to gather new strength as he goes.

He must know completely stop could earn forces faster.

Weapons sway:

Should turned substantial down and come closer to reality. I would suggest that they hire a trained soldier to do tests and not use the one from the office or untrained actor.

For everything in the world. It´s said a million times before. Please give the soldier the chance so he can support his weapon (weapon resting) no matter where he is. if it is on a wall, stone wall, a fence, crouching he can elbow, soil, with bipods to heavy rifle, and elbow and hand to normal rifle.

If this could be tweaked correctly, it could benefit everyone and make Arma 3 for a great military sand box simulator.

A suggestion, which probably have been motion before. A chance to put down your weapon and surrender would be great. If AI cut be coded not to shoot on an unarmed man. Then your team mates cut make a effort to rescue you from capture in prison camp.

I know it have been the intention to introduce this as a great simulate soldiers’ RL and make it more fun and real, but instead it makes it frivolous and destructive of pleasure.

Cheers

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I really hate how artificially regular the weapon sway is.

Do you mean when fully rested or when fatigued/injured (or all of the above). I believe that when fully rested the sway is very well done. A predictable up and down motion with a tiny bit of unpredictable side to side tremble.

When you are severely injured or tired it can look very weird, I agree.

Weapons sway:

Should turned substantial down and come closer to reality. I would suggest that they hire a trained soldier to do tests and not use the one from the office or untrained actor.

For everything in the world. It´s said a million times before. Please give the soldier the chance so he can support his weapon (weapon resting) no matter where he is. if it is on a wall, stone wall, a fence, crouching he can elbow, soil, with bipods to heavy rifle, and elbow and hand to normal rifle.

If this could be tweaked correctly, it could benefit everyone and make Arma 3 for a great military sand box simulator.

Have you tried dev. The weapon sway is very nice imo. Not neccesarily toned down a whole ton, but on the whole alot less drunken looking - looks more like your character is breathing n and out, with a slight tremble. I fully agree that weapon resting would be awesome.

IRL. If a soldier is wounded and is under fire, with chances of dying enters some other mechanisms. It is only after about half an hour, you begin to feel pain because of that your body gives you the adrenaline that stun your wounds. The psychological factor means that you are focused on survival and therefore ignore it that you are hurt and be in many cases focused on fighting for life. You are therefore more concentrated. If you are heavily wounded, then you are out of the battle of course. In both cases you also have the option to surrender.

That very adrenaline that will keep you in action is also going to ruin any chance of returning accurate point fire.I imagine you would not be in a calm enough state to hit targets at range reliably (generally speaking of course). In all the vids I've seen soldiers being shot, not one starts shooting back with any form of accuracy. Its all spraying and praying. Mind you most times, they don't fire back at all, rather they run away, hide, or will check their wounds and seek help before even thinking about shooting back. How do you get players ingame to do the same thing? You make it hard for them to shoot accurately.

Edited by -Coulum-

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Do you mean when fully rested or when fatigued/injured (or all of the above). I believe that when fully rested the sway is very well done. A predictable up and down motion with a tiny bit of unpredictable side to side tremble.

When you are severely injured or tired it can look very weird, I agree.

I simply hate how it looks when it is very prominent. That happens when you are injured or when you are at maximum fatigue level. I think that a more fatigued body should mean less predictable sway and less predictable control over your weapon as a fatigued body has less control over its muscles IRL.

Also, I believe that a shoulder does not move exactly as a chest during breathing. Actually, it seems that it almost doesn't move at all (observing myself right now while trying to breathe heavily).

EDIT:

To summerize it:

1) Keep the sway as it is now for calm states. In calm states, it works very well and it is a pleasure to play with.

2) However, make the sway less predictable and add more random shaking when fatigue starts to rise or when injured. Don't increase the sway with fatigue or at least, don't make it so dependent on breathing as I believe that is not what happens in reality when a body is fatigued.

More fatigue = less control, less predictability IRL.

Edited by Bouben
grammar

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