Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[deltagamer 612]

The fatigue is great and seems accurate. A way to counter long distances on foot with high loads would be to implement some kind of Exo-Skeleton suit that would be worn like a vest and takes up a vest slot leaving space for a backpack and uniform, the player could decide if he/she wanted to have a backpack or carry an extra battery pack for longer travel distances. Adding this would make sense as it is currently being tested by some military's around the world. So in the ArmA 3 timeline it should no longer be a prototype.

An example

Edited August 17, 2014 by deltagamer

[bigpickle 0]

The fatigue is great and seems accurate.

Accurate to whom?

[deltagamer 612]

Accurate to whom?

Me I guess...

[mmaruda 20]

I find the new fatigue system rubbish. I hate playing Arma now. I'm not sure if any research was done here, but clearly the effects are all wrong. A trained soldier in Arma is about as fit a fat teenager in a lead suit.

Anyway, all debate on realism aside, the game is hardly playable bow. The campaign often has you running for miles and you are expected to fight as well. Good luck with that - Arma soldiers are on the brink of dying from exhaustion now after running (not sprinting) for about 300 meters.

[froggyluv 2130]

Me I guess...

Im on stable build but it all feels pretty realistic to me. I barely notice getting fatigued as I tend to use alot of stop and go but was just playing a mission in which an AI squad leader was pulling us up a really long incline and just when I had the notion that this sh*t would really wind someone (especially carrying a LMG) the breathing started.

[vicx 10]

I'm also going to defend the new fatigue system, because this game is about immersion.

When I pack an MG, 450 rounds, a health-kit, nades, an RPG and backpack full of rockets; it actually feels like I am carrying heavy gear.

Other guys run straight past me, while I am busting a gut. This is the way it should be.

Now I wouldn't mind if they went and made the vehicles less able to leap tall buildings and plow through rock walls without taking damage. Going off-road should come with risks, but that is for another thread.

[maturin 12]

Usually you are inserted before the front line and have to walk / run the last stretch. Is 1 kilometer or more. In Arma 3 he would incapacitated when he is tired. He is not in the real world. He could fight and hit its target, although he has gone or been jogging for a while already.

If you can't travel a kilometer in ArmA without exhausting yourself, you just don't know how to play.

Put your weapon down, run a hundred meters, walk a few paces, then run some more. Better yet, use bounding, take a knee when stopped, and scan the horizon. You will get there just fine. Walking regenerates fatigue. There is no excuse for making yourself combat ineffective, besides simple impatience. If you keep your fatigue at about 30%, you need only seconds to return to 0% and be perfectly capable of aiming.

(Note that I only know this because I use Dyslexci's excellent fatigue bar mod. Without UI feedback, it can be confusing and seem more harsh than it really is.)

Remember that this is a game, and thus the default mode of movement is full-speed running. In real life people will spend 200% more time walking, EVEN when under fire. Watch any video of combat, and you'll see that people move slowly and carefully except when absolutely necessary.

Running a full kilometer in real warfare is an absolutely exceptional situation. If you can't stop to rest and don't stop to provide security or maintain situational awareness, you are probably engaged in a desperate rout. And once you get to your destination, it's unlikely to find yourself in immediate contact, with no time spent getting on line and organizing your positions. But in ArmA, the multi-km run is a feature of almost every mission. And therein lies the disconnect that gets people confused.

But in the end, the fatigue is a massive step forward, and exactly what fans have been calling for for years. It's so much better than what modders have been able to produce.

It is perfectly valid to criticize the degree and style of weapon sway, but the movement and animation effects are pretty much perfect at this point.

Edited August 18, 2014 by maturin

[Variable 322]

Perfectly explained maturin, and I think you convinced me to try the fatigue bar mod...

[call_911 10]

I find the new fatigue system rubbish. I hate playing Arma now. I'm not sure if any research was done here, but clearly the effects are all wrong. A trained soldier in Arma is about as fit a fat teenager in a lead suit.

Anyway, all debate on realism aside, the game is hardly playable bow. The campaign often has you running for miles and you are expected to fight as well. Good luck with that - Arma soldiers are on the brink of dying from exhaustion now after running (not sprinting) for about 300 meters.

Could'nt agree more, I (used) to play the game to have fun, an enjoy the teamplay etc. An why on earth would they make such a core gameplay change after release I'll nvr know. I understand carrying 10 boxes of mg ammo in a carryall or 5-6 AT missles may seem unreal or unrealistic, but changing like this just took the game in the wrong direction. Very disappointed.

[Variable 322]

Could'nt agree more, I (used) to play the game to have fun, an enjoy the teamplay etc. An why on earth would they make such a core gameplay change after release I'll nvr know.

I understand that it's not ideal to introduce such a serious change to a game after the release, but better late than never considering the damage is merely a loss of some player, adjustment effort by others versus so much more happy other players (I don't have accurate data of course, I'm basing my assumptions on the fact that fatigue and encumbrance has been requested since almost ever, on amount of people supporting it in the forums and the people I play with).

I think the Fatigue is the biggest improvement to the Arma series in years. I played enough of it to really miss it when I play missions that disable it.

[twisted 127]

I'm basing my assumptions on the fact that fatigue and encumbrance has been requested since almost ever, on amount of people supporting it in the forums and the people I play with).

I think the Fatigue is the biggest improvement to the Arma series in years. I played enough of it to really miss it when I play missions that disable it.

agree wholeheartedly.

do people relaise that its up to mission makers how much fatigue they have in the mission. missionmakers CAN disable fatigue and you can run around like a cybernetic warriot all day long. i really like fatigue and miss it when its not there. adds a whole different tactical element - plus i use modern vehicle transport. it sure does beat running everywhere - and logistics and transport suddenly form an imporant part of the whole mission.

[mr_centipede 31]

Currently, can we adjust the fatigue decay rate? Maybe some kind of modifier to the original value. If we can do that, maybe we can make a mission with a fully rested troops (fatigue decay rate = 1) and some kind of tired low morale troop (fatigue decay rate = xyz). Is it possible currently?

[rübe 127]

Currently, can we adjust the fatigue decay rate? Maybe some kind of modifier to the original value. If we can do that, maybe we can make a mission with a fully rested troops (fatigue decay rate = 1) and some kind of tired low morale troop (fatigue decay rate = xyz). Is it possible currently?

Ideally you'd model such things with setSkill (endurance).

But I havent checked how good that works and if we actually can work with a reasonable range/effect on fatigue this way.

[sarge11111 10]

Im on stable build but it all feels pretty realistic to me. I barely notice getting fatigued as I tend to use alot of stop and go but was just playing a mission in which an AI squad leader was pulling us up a really long incline and just when I had the notion that this sh*t would really wind someone (especially carrying a LMG) the breathing started.

Having IRL experience of carrying an LMG up a steep incline then having to fire it, no Soldier in their right mind would choose firing this from an unsupported position rather than supported unless absolutely necessary.

LMG's and LRR's (IG) have aesthetic bipods only. Still missing important mechanics for such a drastic change.

[five_seven5-7 56]

Now all we need is someone to teach the AI how to handle the new fatigue system.

It's absolutely awkward seeing AI units running around with full fatigue, doing the slow-mo walk animation at 6km/h after running 400m in default loadouts.

This shouldn't be happening at all.

the devs should revisit the campaign, in "Survive" there's too much running unnecessary.

[bad benson 1733]

there's a few problems i have with the fatigue system. i really dig that it's there at all but some things just make no sense.

1. normal movement aside from sprinting fatigues you way too fast. this really becomes a problem when you have to move in a firefight even if just a few meters and frequently. it's ridiculous what amount of movement causes your sway to go up so much. simply annoying.

what i'd like to see as a general concept is having travelling over long distances impact you long term so you can combat it with breaks and resting periods. short distances however should not have such a big impact. even when sprinting i think short bursts should not cause such a huge penalty. i want vehicles to be needed and all that but i'm really annoyed by having to wait for crazy gun shaking to stop when engaging just because i ran from cover to cover. makes it incredibly tedious and undynamic.

it feels to me like there are some more layers of depth needed. another example is going uphill. i know it's realistic to get more fatigued from that but right now you are just totally at the mercy of the system. it makes not much sense to have your body adapt to the slope by going much slower but also have a fatigue penalty that feels like it's based on you going uphill the same speed as you would on even ground.

that means there needs to be a more dynamic system based on movement speed and fatigue as seperate factors. for example. having a huge load on your back should slow you down more than it fatigues you when moving at normal speed (jog). so these two factors should be not totally tied to eachother (not sure how exactly it works now).

that would make people with mroe load less agile but get rid of the annoying super fast increased sway.

2. as mentioned before, there needs to be an indicator for better stamina management. this is especially needed with a system that makes not much sense in some cases and might be less needed when some tweaks are applied.

[maturin 12]

Really, people. What the fuck are you carrying to be having these problems?

Be glad you can sprint at varsity sports speeds at all. People in rifle plates are more often restricted to a clumsy waddle (to the point that people in the defense industry are criticizing the current emphasis on armor), with every movement impeding your breathing. It doesn't matter how "fit" the boot camp commercials make you think people are.

[bad benson 1733]

i was carrying only a rifle (not even my pistol) after having dropped my backpack and grenades after being too annoyed by the sway. i wasn't talking about getting rid of fatigue but changing how it works..

the main problem seems to be the way recovery is set up. i also think that your theory that some type of realism equals good design and logical behavior is kind of ridiculous. if you want to walk everywhere for immersion, fine. but the main way of moving about in this game is jogging and the way it's penalized is simply too much. just faster recovery would already make it much better. it's not realistic at all to be unable to aim for this amount of time when getting into an ambush after jogging to the AO. sure, make me jog slower, but the way sway is influenced by all this atm is just bad.

that's just my opinion as yours is yours. don't tell me this is good because it's "realistic". because it's not. it's way too simple.

another thing i could think of is having increased sway not 100% tied to fatigue but instead only having it influence how long it takes for your aim to steady once you got your sights up. like having a set max time to recover. that way you wouldn't stand there looking at your gun spaze out, going prone to recover, aim again and see if it's better, and repeat. it's idiotic.

[-Coulum- 35]

1. normal movement aside from sprinting fatigues you way too fast. this really becomes a problem when you have to move in a firefight even if just a few meters and frequently. it's ridiculous what amount of movement causes your sway to go up so much. simply annoying.

Disagree. When you run 10 metres with standard gear, you recover fully in less than 5 seconds depending on what stance you assume upon arrival. If you are finding you are constantly unstable in the midst of a fire fight it is becasue you were already tired going into the firefight, the firefight has been going on a really long time and you haven't been able to/chosen to rest, or you have some heavy ass gear. And lets face it, being in combat is tiring in reality. Unless you are in a defensive position and have the upper hand, being in combat is gonna take a toll on you.

And short runs and sprints should have a near immediate effect on weapon sway. It doesn't take much to get the blood pumpin, heart going and increase breathing making not so steady a shooting platform. And since it takes very little time to recover to the levels you were before the sprint... I think it is quite reasonable.

Also keep in mind that right upon bringing up the sights sway is always rather high for the first second or two. Not sure if this is intentional but I like it (prevents quickscoping represents character taking the time to line up sights, properly cradle rifle etc.). Don't confuse that swat for sway caused by fatigue.

2. as mentioned before, there needs to be an indicator for better stamina management. this is especially needed with a system that makes not much sense in some cases and might be less needed when some tweaks are applied.

Totally agree

By the way devs, hold breath no longer seems to be working.

I am hoping when it makes it's way back into the game it is a bit more limited than it was in the past few devbranch's... pretty please:o

[bad benson 1733]

Disagree. When you run 10 metres with standard gear, you recover fully in less than 5 seconds depending on what stance you assume upon arrival. If you are finding you are constantly unstable in the midst of a fire fight it is becasue you were already tired going into the firefight

exactly my point. it makes no sense to me that the type of fatigue effects you get from sprinting are the same as moving in a moderate speed for a long time. to me these are different types of fatigue if you want to call it that. just based on common sense i would say in real life you would have different effects when you jog for a while than you would from doing a sprint.

it's too much of a general fatigue to feel logical too me.

[blackpixxel 53]

I think there should be a threshold for the fatique. It should not start after 10m. It would be better to have no fatique effects untill the unit is let's say 20% tired. This would avoid the very strange weapon sway after slightest movements.

[-Coulum- 35]

I think there should be a threshold for the fatique. It should not start after 10m. It would be better to have no fatique effects untill the unit is let's say 20% tired. This would avoid the very strange weapon sway after slightest movements.

What do you mean by the slightest movements? The extra sway after 10 metres is soo minimal it might as well not be there. And the player recovers in less than 5 seconds. less than 2 when prone. That is nothing unbearable. The only people its going to harm are those that are trying to run and gun... its good as it is.

And are you sure you aren't confusing this:

Also keep in mind that right upon bringing up the sights sway is always rather high for the first second or two. Not sure if this is intentional but I like it (prevents quickscoping represents character taking the time to line up sights, properly cradle rifle etc.). Don't confuse that swat for sway caused by fatigue.

For sway due to fatigue?

exactly my point. it makes no sense to me that the type of fatigue effects you get from sprinting are the same as moving in a moderate speed for a long time. to me these are different types of fatigue if you want to call it that. just based on common sense i would say in real life you would have different effects when you jog for a while than you would from doing a sprint.

it's too much of a general fatigue to feel logical too me.

I too would have like two different fatigues, one for long distance stamina and one for short distance sprinting. But although I think it would be great to monitor both of these, I don't think the effects of either would be particulary different. Bith are going to result in loss of accuracy and less ability to keep your pace. What seperate effects do you have in mind?

Really, people. What the fuck are you carrying to be having these problems?

My guess is tactical pace is their default speed. Where as for you and me, walking is more of the standard. I don't know how else the system would be giving people so many problems.

Edited August 19, 2014 by -Coulum-

[twisted 127]

Do people know that tactical pace fatigues you faster? Sprinting with tactical pace even more so.

Best way is a normal jog with weapon held down (double tap Ctrl key for weapon down). FFS don't sprint everywhere and then expect to be unfatigued.

I like where fatigue is and it's effects are easily manageable. Like to see weight actually influencing movement speed more.

And bipods and weapon resting, to me that's the thing really needed to round out the new and improved fatigue and weapon sway.

[Greenfist 1863]

Best way is a normal jog with weapon held down (double tap Ctrl key for weapon down).

Even better way is to switch to lowered pistol. (If you're not expecting enemy contact)

Lowering the rifle will fatigue you about 20-30% slower. Switching to sidearm it's even slower or the same.

And with lowered handgun it's even more slower; about 60-70% less than with raised rifle!

The jogging animation is the same with raised and lowered sidearms, but the fatigue gain is different.

[bad benson 1733]

I too would have like two different fatigues, one for long distance stamina and one for short distance sprinting. But although I think it would be great to monitor both of these, I don't think the effects of either would be particulary different. Bith are going to result in loss of accuracy and less ability to keep your pace. What seperate effects do you have in mind?

what i'm saying is that there is a difference between being out of breath and being generally tired or exhausted from having travelled long distances with lots of gear. being out of breath influences your aiming ability, being tired makes you slower. i'm not talking about adding more ingame effects. i'm talking about the different effects different circumstances have on you and should have on you ingame.

i just find it immersion breaking to not be able to aim properly when being suddenly engaged eventhough i managed my fatigue (i do lower my gun) while travelling. it feels unrealistic and illogical. i totally get the concept of penalizing run and gun when it comes to sprinting because it makes sense due to being out of breath. jogging though is something you do with controlled breathing in a uniform manner over longer periods of time. you might take deep breaths too while doing it but it's different from the sudden hyper recovery breathing after a sprint. that's why it shouldn't cause the same amount of sway as sprinting.

i just feel a disconnect from the character when its behavior doesn't match the circumstances.

i guess it would make more sense if being fatigued over a long period of time would only slow you down more than increasing your sway. and sprinting the opposite way. should be possible depending on how tied together sway and change of anim speed are.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Bad Benson