Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[katipo66 94]

Currently I feel entirely defenseless if I'm suddenly fired upon when I'm fatigued and out in the open.

and so you should :D

And still you'll have to put 6 5.56 shots to kill a units. Meh...

I hope they do something about that, it's letting the rest of the game down, reminds me of some Disney cartoon.. Tom and Jerry styles!

[Greenfist 1863]

No I think this is exactly how it should feel. Arma has changed alot, but it has always been an unforgiving game. And thats one of the reasons I love it.

And on top of that I don't totally agree. When prone you can return fire up to 200 metres with reasonable accuracy, even when tired. And you rest up quickly. If your caught out in the open and exhausted it is entirely possible to lay down some effective suppressive fire. And that's how it should be. You shouldn't be sniper accurate.

I believe sway is pretty good right now. The only suggestion I have is regarding hold breath. I think it should slow the sway of the reticule much more (but not totally deaden it movement), BUT there should have a longer "warm up time" to become effective - maybe 2 to 3 seconds. This represents the players having to prepare to steady his aim. In reality You don't suddenly stop breathing mid breath and gain accuracy. Sometimes people don't even hold but rather slowly exhale. Either way it is not something that is just "instantaneous steady aim". It takes some time.

This would make hold breath more useful, but make its employment involve some skill and planning.

I also don't think that hold breath should get you out of being tired or injured at all. If you got shot or your tired you should suffer from it. Especially getting shot. c'mon!

I didn't say the sway should be reduced throughout, only when holding breath.

I'm sure I could steady a bit more even when totally exhausted, unless my arms nearly shot off.

I think "hold breath" shouldn't mean literally just holding breath when you're injured and fatigued.

It should mean, and I quote:

[...], hnnng!

Sounds about accurate.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

5.56 is an underpowered round in arma 3, that's why nato and csat use 6.5. Stop using it as a benchmark

[seba1976 98]

It unbalance the game. To simulate fatigue and weapon sway this big, it's like to simulate grass, and make it invisible for the AI. I'll believe in this, the day I'll see groups of AI resting before attacking players.

[Bouben 3]

- delete -

---------- Post added at 15:32 ---------- Previous post was at 15:30 ----------

And still you'll have to put 6 5.56 shots to kill a units. Meh...

Can you, again, please stay on topic?

[Brisse 78]

It unbalance the game. To simulate fatigue and weapon sway this big, it's like to simulate grass, and make it invisible for the AI. I'll believe in this, the day I'll see groups of AI resting before attacking players.

But the AI never played with the same rules as players. Not before, not now and not ever will they play by the same rules. It cannot be done. They are not humans.

[haleks 8212]

And yet the goal of AI is to emulate human behaviour. I agree with Seba1976, to see the AI equally affected by the fatigue system would be tremendous.

[drill 1]

Cannot see why people complain about new fatigue system. On my opinion, the weapon sway still doesn't affect aim precision much enough, it's still too easy and fast to aim compared to real life. But anyway these are the changes that do it more realistic and interesting. And as for me, the sway definitely should have both horizontal and vertical components.

As of hold breathing, it was too much effective early (in Arma 2 and in Arma 3 before now) - it shouldn't remove so much sway when tired or injured. It seems better now than it was before.

To sum up, I'm mostly happy with recent changes Bohemia made in fatigue and weapon aiming/sway systems. These changes are steps in the right direction, though not big enough. I'm looking forward for weapon inertia and hope it would greatly improve realism of infantry battle.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Drill

[old_painless 183]

And yet the goal of AI is to emulate human behaviour. I agree with Seba1976, to see the AI equally affected by the fatigue system would be tremendous.

Concur that this is totally necessary for balance. Having played through parts of the campaign, I would say that they would need to alter certain missions in Survive. For instance, you really need to haul ass AND fight in the mission where you rendezvous with the brits

And what about the breathing and panting sounds - am I the only one who think they are way too obtrusive ?

-OP

[Bouben 3]

Concur that this is totally necessary for balance. Having played through parts of the campaign, I would say that they would need to alter certain missions in Survive. For instance, you really need to haul ass AND fight in the mission where you rendezvous with the brits

And what about the breathing and panting sounds - am I the only one who think they are way too obtrusive ?

-OP

I cannot imagine how much running you guys have to do in your games that you complain about breathing all the time. I rarely have to run all the time because I need to scan my environment for threats and move carefully. Strange.

[old_painless 183]

It is probably part playstyle and part environment - I tend to favor CQB scenarios and there is quite a bit of rushing from one cover to the next. And very early on, the heaving and panting starts which to me seems much too heavy compared to the relatively short distances that my character has covered.

[Bouben 3]

It is probably part playstyle and part environment - I tend to favor CQB scenarios and there is quite a bit of rushing from one cover to the next. And very early on, the heaving and panting starts which to me seems much too heavy compared to the relatively short distances that my character has covered.

Well, I remember from past airsoft CQB sesions that we had to rest from time to time. So maybe you can do that in the game too? The airsoft CQB was also many times slower than in-game movement routines. You cannot run all the time in real life. You also rest much faster in the game so...I think new system is not a problem.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Bouben

[old_painless 183]

Oh sure, its not the fatigue that bothers me, its the sound that accompanies it. Seems much too exaggerated, could be toned down a bit.

[haleks 8212]

Or more progressive.

[Bouben 3]

Oh sure, its not the fatigue that bothers me, its the sound that accompanies it. Seems much too exaggerated, could be toned down a bit.

Well, the point of my reply was that I rarely hear that sound because of my playstyle. I have nothing against sound improvements tho.

[old_painless 183]

Yeah, I should probably walk more, my default speed is the jog. And like Pepe Hal suggests, make the fatigued panting and heaving kick in a bit later and start out more "relaxed" than what it does now.

Btw, some visual indication of how fatigued one is would be very nice on easier levels, to get acquainted with how it works. We already have the stance symbol which shows if you are prone or standing, why not color degree that symbol according to how fatigued you are? Blue/grey for totally "cooled down", and then go across various colors until dark red is the max fatigued state.

-OP

[chortles 263]

I'm left of how even VBS3 has an outright Fatigue bar...

[Bouben 3]

Yeah, I should probably walk more, my default speed is the jog. And like Pepe Hal suggests, make the fatigued panting and heaving kick in a bit later and start out more "relaxed" than what it does now.

Btw, some visual indication of how fatigued one is would be very nice on easier levels, to get acquainted with how it works. We already have the stance symbol which shows if you are prone or standing, why not color degree that symbol according to how fatigued you are? Blue/grey for totally "cooled down", and then go across various colors until dark red is the max fatigued state.

-OP

I would love to see the indicator on all difficulty levels. It is naturally easy to tell that you are fatigued in a real life so I don't see any reason why anyone would want to have to guess it in the game without any indicator. I just hope nobody from pseudo-realism part of the community see this.

[haleks 8212]

I don't know; if the audio feedback was done better, you wouldn't need a visual one. Let's hope BIS keeps improving that aspect of the fatigue system.

[Bouben 3]

I don't know; if the audio feedback was done better, you wouldn't need a visual one. Let's hope BIS keeps improving that aspect of the fatigue system.

Absolutely unnecessary. Audio feedback cannot give you the exact feeling you get when tired in real life. In real life you simply know how much you have left at all time. Why should it be any different in the game? Why? This "HUDfobia" is really not based on rational thinking.

[Greenfist 1863]

I agree, some kind of fatigue meter is definitely needed for more casual players on easier difficulty levels who play mainly in 3rd person view, because most of the current auditory and visual indicators are invisible then. You have no idea if you're totally exhausted until the movement gets slower or you try to aim.

But all you really need is practise to get the feeling of how much you should run and rest to remain functional. Of course this depends largely on the gear weight and terrain etc. but soon you'll know the approximate thresholds in different situations. Even after the very first sprint in a new mission with a new loadout you already realize your current limit and can adjust accordingly.

There's no need to know on which lower level of fatigue you are exactly, like is the fatigue at 5 or 40% (where there's not many obvious effects) because you probably remember what you've been doing for the last minute. Even I can remember, despite the fact that I have the short-term memory of a demented goldfish on crack.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Greenfist

[blackpixxel 53]

I think a little postproces-effect would be enough. Just make the borders of your screen a bit darker from time to time. The more fatique, the more often and the more darker. But please - dont turn Arma even more into an arcade game. Third Person Players have enough advantages. This could be something to bring them back to first person view and to bring more fairness into the game.

[twisted 128]

how do you know exactly what fatigue level you are in? panting increase and little progressive bluriness would be cool. and maybe let the fatigue take a tiny bit longer to ramp up but other than that its adding a ton to my game. no more run up to the AI and blast away, time to think a little tactical.

[DancZer 65]

I think on the lower difficulty level is acceptable to have indicators/icons for fatigue(just like stance).

[old_painless 183]

All good and valid points gentlemen. A HUD indicator could be set up so that it is not available in Veteran or Elite, then the server can simply enforce the difficulty.

A good thing for having a HUD indicator at this time is that BI is still calibrating and tweaking the fatigue feature. An indicator or measure of how fatigued you are would help tremendously in providing good tangible feedback. "Hey, I ran for 10 seconds with this and that equipment and I am 90% fatigued - what gives?"

-OP