Weapon switching need some love

[oggoeg 3]

Hello, I've searched the forums, but I never saw anyone taking up this topic, so here it is.

Weapon switching has some major problems in A3 at the moment. Actually this is the only game i've ever seen that even has this kind of problem in gameplay. I'm kinda fine with stopping while switching my weapons, but here's when the big problem kicks in.

You can't switch to sidearm in the very exact time you really, really need it. Arma is the only game (I've seen) with weapons that doensn't cancel weapon reloading when switching weapon and that is in my opinion one of the biggest flaws in the infantry gameplay.

I can't recall how many times i've been stuck in the situation of reloading my rifle and in the middle of the reload I see hostile, if I change weapon while reloading, the reload finishes and I am completely immobile and then my character switches to my sidearm. Guess who is the one who gets shot. Switching to sidearm should be faster and more ideal choise in this case, always.

This is completely unacceptable in this kind of game and needs a fix really bad. Using sidearm in the very place you actually need it, it becomes useless.

So I'm asking can this flaw be adressed? Some sort of way to cancel actions midway of it, such as reload animation reverses when reload is cancelled? Or a way of making the weapon switch override the reloading or anything to make it better for the sake of the gameplay?

Same kind of action cancelling would make gameplay better in many cases in A3, such as healing animation.

Nobody ever wants to get stuck in the combat. And things can change quickly and the player needs to have control over his character to stop doing something that makes him stationary and defenseless.

[mistyronin 1181]

Technically in battle, you take cover before reloading, because as it is obvious you are vulnerable until you finish (imagine to try to take your side weapon while you are reloading...). If you shoot all the magazine and an enemy is close to you, is then when you have to switch to the side weapon, and after that take cover and reload.

So to me is good as it is, it would be weird if they change it. This is not a Call of Duty action game where you go on a rush shooting with everything, here you have to think before act.

[oggoeg 3]

Technically in battle, you take cover before reloading, because as it is obvious you are vulnerable until you finish (imagine to try to take your side weapon while you are reloading...). If you shoot all the magazine and an enemy is close to you, is then when you have to switch to the side weapon, and after that take cover and reload.

So to me is good as it is, it would be weird if they change it. This is not a Call of Duty action game where you go on a rush shooting with everything, here you have to think before act.

This is the case of being in hard cover, but getting surprised by the enemy. You simply wouldn't keep reloading your rifle when you can drop it on your lap (if it has a sling) or even just ditch the weapon for the sake of your (in this case) virtual life.

And don't take on the Call of Duty stuff please. This game has nothing to do with it. This is exactly what you would do in this situation, wether it was fast paced arcade game, slow paced tactical game or real life.

And the fact that you already have to stop while switching already prevents run & gun wich nobody ever wants in Arma 3 anyway.

E. Let's say you just fired 15 shots from 30 round magazine and start reloading a full mag. You just ejected the half empty mag off the weapon and still have it on your hands, but now you see enemy closing in to your cover.

What would do?

A) put the 15 rnd magazine to your vest and put the full mag to your gun or

B) put the 15 rnd magazine back to your weapon and you're ready to engage

PS. Don't assume new guys on the forums are new players to the game or jumped here from arcade shooters and start asking to make it more like them.

Edited September 1, 2013 by oggoeg

[stealth2668 12]

If you are getting caught off guard while in hard cover, I think it's a tactical issue. You probably shouldn't be within a few meters of your enemy.

[oggoeg 3]

I don't think you understood the topic. Gameplay clunkiness is not a tactical issue.

[mistyronin 1181]

PS. Don't assume new guys on the forums are new players to the game or jumped here from arcade shooters and start asking to make it more like them.

I didn't assume anything, I was just analyzing the example you gave. From my military exp. ( I used to be a professional soldier ). I wouldn't change half empty mags unless I'm sure there is no enemy in front of me. And to change an empty one I would try to get some cover or reduce my siluette.

It's quite uncommon that a soldier have a handgun ( unless he's part of some specific unit ). And they are only for personal protection at close range, and their effective range would be lets say 10-15 mts in stress situation; unless we are talking about a really good trained soldier or a lucky one. And you should try to avoid that kind of situation or charge with a bayonet.

Btw how long it takes to reload? 10-15 sec? And how long would take throw the mag, draw the handgun aim and shoot? I would throw myself asside.

So we are talking about a really rare and specific case. Maybe a member of spec ops would be skilled enough and have enough cold blood, but don't thing that a common soldier would.

[frederf 0]

Some people just want to be contrary instead of understand what they are talking about.

A3 smoothed a lot of animation issues but several still persist. A lot of reasonable actions (walking while taking out pistol, ceasing a reload, etc.) are "stuck" in A3.

I realize that pistol+rifle combos are rare in current service. I don't care to use them in ArmA personally. Reloads could be made slower, especially belt-fed. But that's not really what this topic is about. This is discussing how awkward and robotic many actions are where more smoothness or interruptibility even with less overall performance are routine in human activity.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Frederf

[MANTIA 55]

Like others have said,

I would argue that your still getting your sidearm out faster than if you stopped reloading and switched to sidearm in real life. Doing all that is 10x harder than people realize.

You'll find some guys that are VERY quick in transitioning to sidearms, mag changes, ect........in training environments. Like already said I would be happy if those types of things were made even slower in game to mimic the real thing.

[stealth2668 12]

I don't think you understood the topic. Gameplay clunkiness is not a tactical issue.

Tactically, you don't want to enter CQC. You pick them off from afar. If you are always getting caught by enemies up close, you aren't doing a good enough job clearing them. I've put in 48 hours into this game and I haven't yet been killed while reloading. I'm always behind cover with the enemy 500m away so I can reload safely. I also NEVER had to use my sidearm.

[odie0351 67]

Tactically, you don't want to enter CQC. You pick them off from afar. If you are always getting caught by enemies up close, you aren't doing a good enough job clearing them. I've put in 48 hours into this game and I haven't yet been killed while reloading. I'm always behind cover with the enemy 500m away so I can reload safely. I also NEVER had to use my sidearm.

in urban environments that's a luxury you don't always have. while its very unrealistic for every soldier to carry a sidearm, in Arma 3 at the moment it is the case so we just have to play the hand were dealt on that one. in regards to speed/tactical reloads I know with the M4/M16 at my best I could accomplish it in around 4 seconds, granted that was in a no stress training environment. And I was always taught to go to your sidearm if your rifle runs dry in CQB if your still in direct contact with a threat, never had to do it in combat but on the range changing to my sidearm was never difficult for me. one big thing on making changing to the sidearm faster would be to change the animation so the soldier doesn't shoulder the rifle but allows it to fall across his chest as if he's wearing a Three point sling. already appears that the sling concept is in place if you walk with your rifle lowered.

[pharoah 65]

Tactically, you don't want to enter CQC. You pick them off from afar. If you are always getting caught by enemies up close, you aren't doing a good enough job clearing them. I've put in 48 hours into this game and I haven't yet been killed while reloading. I'm always behind cover with the enemy 500m away so I can reload safely. I also NEVER had to use my sidearm.

I got killed in CQB last night purely because I hid behind a wall (nowhere else) to change my mag and an AI spec ops pops around the corner and BANG...dead whilst changing (which I couldn't stop). Whilst you're meant to count how many rounds you've fired or have the last 3 rounds with tracer, in the heat of battle it doesn't work like that. The current menu system in ARMA is quite clunky and thats the main issue with this. The keyboard numbers still refer to radio commands just like they did back in OFP instead of referring to your different weapons (like almost all other FPS's out there I'm guessing).

[tortuosit 485]

This is not a Call of Duty action game where you go on a rush shooting with everything, here you have to think before act.

Please don't be unfair! Stopping when weapons change is an animation system problem. Has been criticized numerous times and the developers already said it is not changable without major changes to the animation system. Regrettably.

@OP: I think you have to deal with it. Maybe an addon author will find a workaround (I'm having in mind someone fixed the weapon down animation stops...)

[oggoeg 3]

Guys, guys. If we don't "tactically" want to engage enemy close range, then why do we even have close range weaponry in the game in the first place? With 745 hours in the game I can safely say that things can go FUBAR pretty quick and the player needs control over his character in various situations and engage those situations how the player sees fit. Wether it was a good or bad choise.

The whole topic is about the fact that the weapons switching doens't work how it should and also we should be able to cancel long lasting actions that make us completely vulnerable to the enemy. If I was putting a bandaid to my arm, im pretty sure I wouldn't have to stand there with my weapon on ground and keep putting the bandaid to my arm when something happens that I should either evade or engage. Even by moving while doing the healing action should cancel the healing and we should be able to get up and go.

Another example is healing someone else in MP and the guy just wanders off, and there you are healing air for a while, it's not good.

Reversing reloads would enhance gameplay and simply put is very realistic. If you just start reloading and someone jumps at you (this will happen and happens alot, I can say it with the hours I put in this game). If you just released a half empty magazine off the weapon but still holding it, you still can slap the same magazine back in the weapon in a heartbeat and keep firing. You even could check if the magazine has ammo in it by double tapping reload key if you play on hardest difficulty and can't see ammo count on HUD.

Don't wander off topic on tactics and all that. Frederf got the point! It's discussion on improving gameplay.

I've been reading the forums for a good while now and I've seen that people have adapted into Arma and OFP clunkiness for so long they actually started to think the awkward clunkiness is a feature and a simulation. :confused:

Yet still these are the exact things you would want to do no matter if its a fully fledged simulator, arcade shooter or ARMA3. And reload reverse would be an awesome feature in most games that includes using firearms in it.

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 ----------

Please don't be unfair! Stopping when weapons change is an animation system problem. Has been criticized numerous times and the developers already said it is not changable without major changes to the animation system. Regrettably.

@OP: I think you have to deal with it. Maybe an addon author will find a workaround (I'm having in mind someone fixed the weapon down animation stops...)

I stated in first post that i'm fine with stopping while changing weapons even if it's not good. And yes there is an addon that allows you to change weapons and move completely freely, but it's a hacky way to do it and the weapon down animation stops have been fixed with an addon also. I hope devs can fix it too.

But you maybe right about dealing with it no matter how bad it is, unless devs start to fix the remaining clunkiness. Or they already started but we don't know about it. Or even started making new features that enchance gameplay, one can only hope.

[sorophx 25]

the only thing I hate about switching weapons is that stupid animation when the unit moves his rifle to his back. he doesn't do that when he climbs ladders or switches to binoculars, but when he needs to grab his pistol - suuuuuure :confused:

[oggoeg 3]

That is too true :D

[Bee8190 10]

There must have been a reason why the peeps at ACE implemented magazine weight feedback. While it's been quite simple solution it did i's job very well and all they did was telling the player -

This magazine feels heavy - mag full (in green colour)

This magazine feels light - for used / half empty magazine (orange)

This magazine feels very light - Used or empty magazine ( red )

I don't think guys at BI play ACE much...

[oggoeg 3]

There must have been a reason why the peeps at ACE implemented magazine weight feedback. While it's been quite simple solution it did i's job very well and all it took was telling the player -

This magazine feels heavy - mag full (in green colour)

This magazine feels light - for used / half empty magazine (orange)

This magazine feels very light - Used or empty magazine ( red )

I don't think guys at BI play ACE much...

The great thing is that now in Arma we can see the ammo depleting from the magazine itself and we could possibly check the magazines physically instead of text. This already works great with Scorpion as the side of the magazine is transparent.

[Von Quest 1161]

I agree. The weapon-switching thing needs a little fondling, foreplay, and some cuddles. :inlove:

Here's a Forum Thread you may be interested in. And not sure if you've seen this or not...

[oggoeg 3]

I agree. The weapon-switching thing needs a little fondling, foreplay, and some cuddles. :inlove:

Here's a Forum Thread you may be interested in. And not sure if you've seen this or not...

Yeah, this is the addon I was talking about that is kinda hacky way to get around it.

I don't recall it fixing the switch to interrupt reload or anything like that.

And the biggest problem is that it is an addon, not vanilla feature.

[zeep 3]

The player should be able to stop a reload and grab his sidearm. Also weapon changing while moving is something that should be possible.

These annoying clunky factors are game breaking and have caused many deaths.

[mistyronin 1181]

I agree. The weapon-switching thing needs a little fondling, foreplay, and some cuddles. :inlove:

Here's a Forum Thread you may be interested in. And not sure if you've seen this or not...

To me that video is completly unrealistic, he changes the weapons way too fast and the bazooka has no weight... I think it's not the goal of Arma to make such a thing.

I mean if you are killed while reloading is because you have not cover yourself / manage your rounds properly ( you haven't read the terrain ). So it's your fault.

A real assault it's not just rushing in one direction and shooting without thinking. You have to visualize where are you going and what covers / concealments you are gonna use, while having in mind how many rounds you have and where you can reload safely. Its the first lesson they give you about combat in any military academy.

War involves a lot of thinking, even at tactical level.

Though I understand it may not be as "fun" as in some known arcade games, but thats why you have plenty of games to choose.

[enex 11]

To me that video is completly unrealistic, he changes the weapons way too fast and the bazooka has no weight... I think it's not the goal of Arma to make such a thing.

I mean if you are killed while reloading is because you have not cover yourself / manage your rounds properly ( you haven't read the terrain ). So it's your fault.

A real assault it's not just rushing in one direction and shooting without thinking. You have to visualize where are you going and what covers / concealments you are gonna use, while having in mind how many rounds you have and where you can reload safely. Its the first lesson they give you about combat in any military academy.

War involves a lot of thinking, even at tactical level.

Though I understand it may not be as "fun" as in some known arcade games, but thats why you have plenty of games to choose.

Arma 3 on it's own have you thinking playing tactically because of impact of few bullets and you becoming dead meat.

The switching weapons got in no way big effect compared to overall Arma 3 experience.

Stopping to complete the action is a flaw not a positive thing.being locked in animation is in no way mimicking a real life situation.

[oggoeg 3]

I don't think anyone would want it like it is in the addon. I think it's just a proof of concept. If BI decides to try to give the switching and reloading some love I'd bet they would have much better quality animations and transitions. It doensn't need to be anything super fast or basic FPS shooter style switching.

Some of the current transitions and animations are sometimes way too slow and some are just absolutely, incredibly insane: launcher on hand, take binocular, switch to primary and observe madness :raisebrow: (If dev's are reading this, please look into it.)

By the way, if someone remembers the jumping animation from animation viewer, wouldn't it be the greatest thing ever if you could jump like that, but with conditions?

If character has enough stamina to sprint.

Must maintain sprint.

Sprint towards an object that is about high as characters knee. Possibly small gaps

Jumping consumes a lot of stamina (say no to bunnies ;) )

If character is carrying tons of gear and cannot sprint, no jumping available.

Basically using vault with a key like it is, but now we can actually get over a kneehigh obstacle when our characters have taken a breath and not carrying an AT and a backpack. I've never sprinted towards a small obstacle in this game that I didn't want to go over.

And if the jumping drains stamina fast with addition that you must be sprinting to do it, there really won't be a thing called bunnyhopping in Arma. You'd need to think if you want to start jumping over stuff anyway. Sometimes it would the absolute thing to do, sometimes not, just like vaulting.

E: MistyRonin, why are you talking about rushing without thinking and all that? This is a game, we can die because we walked over a bush, that wasn't really a bush at all. We can die because we lack the senses in the game we have in real life.

Since the game tries to be realistic to a certain level, I think it's reasonable that the characters had realistic human agility. We are not stiff as bricks.

PS. Please stop throwing in the arcade game stuff. Stop thinking it would change the game it to a rabbit dance Call of Battlefield 18, it won't, it can't. The gameplay is too different. It's like preaching doomsday for toworrow, every day. It only gives your character more freedom of movement and more realistic movement in any way.

Edited September 3, 2013 by oggoeg

[mistyronin 1181]

Arma 3 on it's own have you thinking playing tactically because of impact of few bullets and you becoming dead meat.

The switching weapons got in no way big effect compared to overall Arma 3 experience.

Stopping to complete the action is a flaw not a positive thing.being locked in animation is in no way mimicking a real life situation.

Some games have the impact that a few bullets can kill you ( a lot this last years ), but few use the smart covering. But tactical reloading it's one of the main features of OFP/Arma series. I guess that's why the military choose OFP instead of any typical arcade, and evolve it to VBS.

As I stated before if someone can kill you while you are reloading, it's entirely your fault ( it's the equivalent to put your king in a bad position in chess ). It's part of the game.

They could add some kind of fast reload option like in Gears of War, that if you fail to do it perfect you get stuck for a while ( in fact in real life that happens quite much ). With some variable that normal soldiers have a 95% of possibility to fail while specially trained soldiers in CBQ would have a 50%.

An under stress it takes more time to change weapons than to reload. Unless you have a really good nerves or trained hard for that ( Spec ops ).

Well they could also add like the option like in the addon, for the easiest mode of difficulty, pair to "Super Smart AI mates ".

[rye1 21]

I think the percentage based system dependent on unit is a bit too roleplayish. I have no problems with weapon switching currently to be brutally honest.