AI Discussion (dev branch)

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

41 minutes ago, teabagginpeople said:

 haha but that cannot be 2012 -17 it just cannot ,I cannot think off the top of my head but there had to be  AI improveme.....  oh wait

 

 never mind thankfully a fine upstanding Gentleman or lady provided some evidence to the contrary

 

- Great scripting command additions like "forgetTarget" and "targets" and "doSuppressiveFire" and "setDriveOnPath" (forceFollowRoad is great in theory but broken in practice)

- AI forward-firing helicopter AI fixed!!!

- Fixing wing AI is good since Jets DLC!

- AI infantry will fire at fast(er) moving helic

;D

 

scripting commands for modders to use are not AI improvements ... "here you do it" =/= "here look at these cool things we did". And even then, small AI accessibilities for modders, only useful for advanced designers. I love the new commands, but im also aware not many of us have the time or knowledge to make good use of them. I can do some pretty cool stuff with that new "forgetTarget" command, but 90% of mission designers cant.

[teabagginpeople 398]

Just now, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

scripting commands for modders to use are not AI improvements ... "here you do it" =/= "here look at these cool things we did"

ha you bastard, I just copied your post . you know  the scripting commands part can be ignored for my point.

 

look I hope they do more. I play a mixture with arma.co- op and single player  in there so I value improvements to AI. and honestly believe with the tac-ops dlc and tanks you may see more AI improvements in line with what happened with jets dlc. 

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

37 minutes ago, twakkie said:

This thread really shows the worst of the BI forums. Time to stop following this.

 

It is natural for the most "left behind" parts of the game to attract the most critical feedback, relax!

[R0adki11 3949]

Can we try to stay on topic, final warning. 

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

7 minutes ago, teabagginpeople said:

ha you bastard, I just copied your post . you know  the scripting commands part can be ignored for my point.

 

look I hope they do more. I play a mixture with arma.co- op and single player  in there so I value improvements to AI. and honestly believe with the tac-ops dlc and tanks you may see more AI improvements in line with what happened with jets dlc. 

 

i hope so,

 

ive already privately complimented the relevant devs regarding new fixed wing AI, our pilots love it.

 

at the very least wheeled vehicle driving must be repaired, i understand if they decide to commit resources to new projects instead of arma, but a car should be able to drive for a few minutes in vanilla/official terrains without stopping/breaking/etc.

 

 

this is not acceptable, but has been the reality for 52 weeks now!

 

 

I feel justified using the word Broken with respect to AI wheeled-vehicle driving, despite a year of fanboys (who dont use AI driving) parroting the SITREPs which claim AI driving is overhauled/much better.

[The Man Without Qualities 110]

That becomes worst in my beloved CTIs. Not only that AI driver sometimes hammer their wheeled vehicle xxxxx times against the same obstacle until its broken, also crowd management is totally absent like I mentioned in many replies.

Many spawning vehicles in a CTI base blocked by other vehics and obstacles resulting often in spawning finally one vehicle clipping into each other or into an obstacle - which causes an explosion that ignites most assets of a base.

Of course each human player can manually support, but AI controlled squads can't. A "simple" function that detects if an vehicle with a certain destination but still far away with no progress for (a configurable) time would be temporarily dragged under the control of "crowd management" with specific routines to gain a new valid and working path. That would include that several vehicles are controlled under this "crowd manager" if in certain range or if detected that they block each other and then proper routines applied (e.g. only 1 moves at a time, outer move before inner in a crowd; waiting in queues vs. calculating alternative but longer path...) .

 

Currently, if a few vehicles qeue up in front of a bridge, the next one is immediately trying to bypass into river/valley or using a much longer road. That is not always welcome.

 

@BIS: transfer 100k$ and I write the whitebook for the functionality

 

AI driving is dealt here :

 

 

[froggyluv 2136]

 

 The AI refuse to fire out of certain windows defeating the Ambush quality I was looking for. They only fire after I break the windows for them.

 

 

 Also , please add a refraction factor to the AI's detection thru windows - as it is its as if they are plain as day outside when that is not the case in real life due to glare, shadowing etc.. I have a script that detects AI indoors and have upped their camoCoeffecient  -that does help but this would be way better engine level.

 

[HeroesandvillainsOS 1504]

If the AI aren't shooting out of windows (which I've seen myself too), that's probably a bug and should get a bug report.

[froggyluv 2136]

 

 ^ Gotcha - havent reported a bug official;ly in years -not even sure where to go lol

 

 Heres an example of better indoor camoflage -please add this BI, it would make Urban combat/ambushes so much better. As it is units just get called out as if sitting on a picnic blanket on top of a grassy hill.

 

 

[HeroesandvillainsOS 1504]

https://feedback.bistudio.com/project/view/1/

 

Try this link. 

[froggyluv 2136]

 

 The AI pathfinding on the red brick terraces of Georgetown are utterly borked. Sorry but this is atrocious and something Ive seen since the terraces of Sahrani. I can understand AI having problems in the Industrial Pier type areas but this is right smack in town and if you watch the video you can see how it completely breaks my AI team down -totally unacceptable. Add to that the AI guys still ghosting thru doors when Im right there - why are they not opening them? Please please keep AI in mind when designing maps from the ground up, not as an afterthought if they'll work or not leaving us with a dysfunctional AI team.

 

 

I get that Coop/MP has priority now but those are prime strategical spots for Coop AI as well so it affects all of us.

[HeroesandvillainsOS 1504]

@froggyluv My goodness that was painful to watch. The F4 unit became utterly broken. This is crazy considering it's a BI made map.

 

My opinion is, this is a bug and needs to go on feedback tracker. I feel like this thread is more about AI enhancements and limitations and discussions on stuff like that. What you're demonstrating here is a blatant bug and I'm sure is unintended.

 

I realize the chances of it getting fixed is slim to none regardless, but it's pretty much none of you leave it here and don't make them aware.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

13 hours ago, froggyluv said:

 

 The AI pathfinding on the red brick terraces of Georgetown are utterly borked. Sorry but this is atrocious and something Ive seen since the terraces of Sahrani. I can understand AI having problems in the Industrial Pier type areas but this is right smack in town and if you watch the video you can see how it completely breaks my AI team down -totally unacceptable. Add to that the AI guys still ghosting thru doors when Im right there - why are they not opening them? Please please keep AI in mind when designing maps from the ground up, not as an afterthought if they'll work or not leaving us with a dysfunctional AI team.

 

 

I get that Coop/MP has priority now but those are prime strategical spots for Coop AI as well so it affects all of us.

 

this terrace is hopelessly Broken for AI pathfinding as well

 

 

 

froggy, BI would prefer you to use human teammates, is much more cost-efficient for them and might nudge you to be more social :DD

[Vasily.B 529]

I dont undestand why doors are have no collision tag for AI - they walk through doors almost everywhere.

[Antilochos 106]

It's a magic trick Vasily.B, didn't you know?

[kremator 1065]

On 03/06/2017 at 4:25 PM, froggyluv said:

 

 

 

I get that Coop/MP has priority now but those are prime strategical spots for Coop AI as well so it affects all of us.

 

That is actually a disgrace.  It is like the designers couldn't be bothered to sort pathfinding in that area.  We're dealing with AS (artificial stupidity) here not AI !!

[Tankbuster 1746]

On 03/06/2017 at 4:25 PM, froggyluv said:

 

 The AI pathfinding on the red brick terraces of Georgetown are utterly borked. Sorry but this is atrocious and something Ive seen since the terraces of Sahrani. I can understand AI having problems in the Industrial Pier type areas but this is right smack in town and if you watch the video you can see how it completely breaks my AI team down -totally unacceptable. Add to that the AI guys still ghosting thru doors when Im right there - why are they not opening them? Please please keep AI in mind when designing maps from the ground up, not as an afterthought if they'll work or not leaving us with a dysfunctional AI team.

 

 

I get that Coop/MP has priority now but those are prime strategical spots for Coop AI as well so it affects all of us.

 

Jesus, that's bad. This needs to be fixed.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yeah that's lame but it is lasting since OFP, AI infantry ignoring doors and non functional geometry and pathfindings on large objects. What's not clever is having created such objects for Apex, as if the dev team never played those games.

[EO 11277]

On 2017-6-4 at 0:59 PM, Vasily.B said:

I dont undestand why doors are have no collision tag for AI - they walk through doors almost everywhere.

 

...maybe AI should inherit snake pathfinding.

 

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

8 hours ago, ProfTournesol said:

Yeah that's lame but it is lasting since OFP, AI infantry ignoring doors and non functional geometry and pathfindings on large objects. What's not clever is having created such objects for Apex, as if the dev team never played those games.

 

well they did outsource a lot of Tanoa design/work to a Thailand company

 

Quote

Being a crucial part of Apex expansion, the Tanoa terrain consists of thousands unique objects and structures. With such a number of assets and given the time and resources we had for its development, we had recruited a fair amount of external artists to help us out with the task. One of the studios contributing heavily to delivering Tanoa on time and in a splendid shape was Black Element Software in Thailand.

https://dev.arma3.com/post/sitrep-00180

 

so you're probably right, the developers of many Tanoa assets probably never did play OFP ;)

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/arma/comments/6fjlcz/is_bohemia_abandoning_ai_development_vids_inside/

[The Man Without Qualities 110]

So what I can summarize until now is that there is a gap between the reliability of already existing AI routines since they cannot work on all map(areas) under all circumstances.

Most of the issues are caused by simple bugs or even design issues.

Fixing the bugs would help a lot, but would still leave the AI unreliable due to the design issues.

Question is if BIS would ever mind to design the game so that AI can work in all areas, all buildings with predictable results?

If not, it is clear that all mission developers consider AIs rather a burden then an interesting mission item.

[Guest]

I've accepted for some time now that from my tests, the Ai in Arma 3 are not very reliable for use in interiors, between getting stuck and having issues with near enemies not being detected I can only see static units being placed on occasion for my missions that may or may not respond to nearby threats.

 

On the other hand, I've accepted that Arma 3 Imo is really more of an 'outdoor' combat type game, and try to keep to that theme.

 

I just came back to the game recently, after realizing how much easier Arma 3 can be to edit than some other games, and not only am I glad to see the SetUnitPos UP issue has finally been resolved, but I have to say I am really impressed with the current state of the AI mobility.

 

Maybe I've strayed away from grouped units usage too much for too long, and been out of the loop - but I've recently been watching you-tube videos showing a Lot of Arma 3 missions where the enemy AI is doing all sorts of various movements during engagements, and I initially thought.. I wonder how the mission maker did that? Then I finally broke down and started tinkering again with grouped enemy ai units, maxed out their courage, set them to Open Fire, and woah! - In a moderate town environment, I just witnessed something I have never seen in Arma 1, 2 or 3 - the enemy ai units were doing a number of things, advancing and flanking - and not just a few of them, but most of the units were at very least intermittently on the move doing something if they weren't directly firing - to me that is Very cool - and this is such a big step forward from the past where the enemy Ai basically did little else than lay down, crawl around, get up for a moment, rinse repeat.

 

So, despite the issues with interiors that for my part I have accepted some time ago, I am really impressed with what I have seen recently with the Ai being able to be so much more mobile and 'alive' during engagements, and the really cool part is that much of their actions are autonomous with only a few simple commands thrown in to kick it off, talk about making unit placement and usage so much easier - I can literally throw down a group of 12 units with max courage and open fire - and they really are doing the rest. For me, it's a welcome break from dealing with time consuming and detailed unit management that I had to do in order to get these guys to be mobile in the past.

 

 

[lex__1 422]

On 30.05.2017 at 0:48 PM, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

i hope so,

 

ive already privately complimented the relevant devs regarding new fixed wing AI, our pilots love it.

 

at the very least wheeled vehicle driving must be repaired, i understand if they decide to commit resources to new projects instead of arma, but a car should be able to drive for a few minutes in vanilla/official terrains without stopping/breaking/etc.

 

 

this is not acceptable, but has been the reality for 52 weeks now!

 

 

I feel justified using the word Broken with respect to AI wheeled-vehicle driving, despite a year of fanboys (who dont use AI driving) parroting the SITREPs which claim AI driving is overhauled/much better.

These problems will soon turn out to be four years old.
And two years turned to these tickets.

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T82501

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T82533

 

[froggyluv 2136]

1 hour ago, special ed said:

Rightful Praise...

 

 

 While I do agree Arma AI is unique and has some strengths when using groups -there are just too many neglected areas to give it glowing reviews. Buildings -I get it -they are tough to utilize in such a sandboxed environment for such variabled sized groups. Most games lock you into a small 4 man unit or whatever -so building maneuvering is scaled and designed exactly for that. That doesnt excuse however the need for terrain designers to be  working tightly with the AI team (exists?) in determining how windows should be place according to different stances and what purpose does a half window server? Or a panel thru a window obstructing AI's view  How parts of the city's GROUND landscape is not accessible at all by AI units leaving a Player led unit to navigate thru a frustrating morass of ground.

 

 But even larger than these issues is animations and orientation. Gun fights, city street fights -are won by your team having the first mark on the other. Plain and simple. If your squad is moving East runs into a team moving West -your units should be facing East 98% time! But they dont. Upon first contact, sure cover if around is needed but why would your squad members start laying down and covering West, SouthWest,Northwest etc.. or be facing East only to stand up and run West getting shot in the back? How is tactical planning relevant when this happens -and it happens every gun battle.

 

In an outdoor field battle with multiple attacking squads from various directions -the above would make some sense - theoretically scanning for flanking enemies. But on crowded , tighter streets it looks and plays out awful -all men should orient themselves toward the only known threat direction. If they run for cover they should either sprint and then reorient, or walk in a manner keepin their eyes on target. The swiveling animation with sights always up also makes this look very bad and robot-y.

 

If Tac-Ops DLC is designed as rumored to be for the SP and tactical minded -these are the things that are needed -not cool flashlights, flashbangs or plastic wrist cuffs - but newer and improved functionality of the AI squad

[Freghar 73]

Has anything changed recently with CfgAISkill? It seems to "work", but the interpolation is no longer based on a simple linear function, ie. with {0,0,1,1} I'm getting

(which stays similar across different Y ranges, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GDzxZpVa1IDFP9GAeHUVrKIiGqKR5jv68qvE-0JhMQ0/pubhtml?gid=980503731&single=true ).

 

The wiki ( https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/CfgAISkill ) also mentions

 

Quote

More than 2 pairs of defining values can be used (minimum is 2 pairs).

 

however I was unable to figure out how, using ie. {0,0.5,1,  0,0.2,1} (extending the {w, x, y, z} example from the wiki) seems to produce spurious curves.

 

Is there now any way to change the curve shape? Otherwise it doesn't seem possible to have skillFinal at skill 0.5 lower than 0.75 without reducing the maximum (at 1.0).

 

Thanks.

 

(Tested with skillAI=1 and precisionAI=1.)