AI Discussion (dev branch)

[KeyCat 131]

...ability to somehow make the AI sprint back to formation/to a point/to a vehicle even if they are in danger mode, it will be a game changer.

If you mean like having a reliable "retreat" command for your AI's then consider me in ;)

/KC

[Variable 322]

If you mean like having a reliable "retreat" command for your AI's then consider me in ;)

/KC

Sometimes it can be frustrating to see them moving slowly with bounding overwatch when you just want them to sprint somewhere. Actually, I rarely see AI sprint. There should be a way to tell them to ignore everything else and just sprint to position. Especially when sprinting to a point/formation/vehicle it's the safer thing to do. I don't expect them to realize that themselves (that would probably be too hard to compute), but there should be a way to make them do it, since you can't really tell the AI "listen buddy, there's a tank coming in over this hill so if you don't haul ass now behind this wall you'll die".

[gammadust 12]

^^ AI don't keep up, and do not respond well to "move" or "get in" commands when in "danger" mode. (dupes: "Just do it" AI Command / Retreat Option for AI Squad) vote it :)

[Bouben 3]

Guys, I just want to remind you there is still this bug with AI and engage commands:

if you could download the repro and try it, it would be appreciated (the ticket is sitting there for a while and there is no reaction whatsoever).

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13952

[Windwalking 18]

^^ AI don't keep up, and do not respond well to "move" or "get in" commands when in "danger" mode. (dupes: "Just do it" AI Command / Retreat Option for AI Squad) vote it :)

I really need a command like this for my AI mods. A lot if ideas were scrapped because I can't make the AI just do it :(

[KeyCat 131]

Taosenai posted a ticket that shows AI's uber capabilities and to me it's pretty clear this is one of the reason to many complains about unfair AI. Make sure to vote it up!

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14905

Video showing what AI sees and does...

/KC

[jgaz-uk 132]

DEDICATED SERVER SETTINGS

A number of dedicated servers do not use/allow respawn for a more realistic experence. In ArmA 2 it was possible to adjust the Enemy AI skill & accuracy levels to reflect that. In Arma 3 at the moment there does not seem to be that option in the server config file??... And scripting in an actual mission does not seem to make any noticeable difference on a Dedicated Server....

Edited September 25, 2013 by jgaz-uk

[windies 11]

Taosenai posted a ticket that shows AI's uber capabilities and to me it's pretty clear this is one of the reason to many complains about unfair AI. Make sure to vote it up!

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14905

Video showing what AI sees and does...

/KC

That's pretty much what I was describing in my previous post about how the AI feels like it never loses you.

Test it by engaging an AI or group of AI and then retreating over a hill and circling around on them. Then have an AI squad mate engage them again and they will instantly engage their last target, generally the player, even if they don't see him and he hasn't fired a shot so there should be no audible indicator of him.

Also judging from Taosenai's test, it almost seems like the AI have no dispersion or aiming error unless it's done via the fired bullet rather than the AI's actual aim point.

[maturin 12]

Taosenai's ticket is half incorrect. The AI retains perfect position knowledge and can fire with unimpaired accuracy, but they don't learn anything unfair about movement of obscured targets.

Let's have a good discussion in the Notes about when the AI should shoot through cover, and hope BIS doesn't take the ticket as is just because half of ShackTac was prompted to go vote on it by their officers.

[dmarkwick 261]

Maybe it's my settings somewhere, and I don't like overly accurate AI, but I'm just not seeing overly accurate AI? Last night I was able to move in & out of cover to take pot-shots at AI who returned fire, but did not headshot me unless I was careless and stayed out too long. Range was ~300-400m, and I'm on release build.

[Varanon 892]

Maybe it's my settings somewhere, and I don't like overly accurate AI, but I'm just not seeing overly accurate AI? Last night I was able to move in & out of cover to take pot-shots at AI who returned fire, but did not headshot me unless I was careless and stayed out too long. Range was ~300-400m, and I'm on release build.

Did you actually check the video ? What more do you need in terms of proof ?

Don't defend something that isn't meant to be defended. There is an obvious flaw, as shown in the video, and that needs to be fixed.

[Variable 322]

Maybe it's my settings somewhere, and I don't like overly accurate AI, but I'm just not seeing overly accurate AI? .

I can't grasp how can you play this series for that long and miss that. It's one of the things this game is known for, and one of its biggest problems.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Variable

[no use for a name 0]

This is an excellent report of why the AI tends to kill so soon: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14905

Please vote!

[Variable 322]

With regards to the discussed video, it seems like the "movement" of the target is not actual movement, but DR - Dead Reckoning of the target's movement based on last known kinematic data. If the target didn't keep its direction and/or speed, it's not accurate, but rather a "guesstimate" guess by the AI.

[Tonci87 163]

@ AI Devs

AI still can´t drive properly. There is that narrow dirt road up north from Agios Konstantinos and AI can´t drive there at all!

I made a simple repro Mission

http://www.gamefront.com/files/23724211/Driving%2520test.Altis.7z

Switch to 3rd Person and watch the mayhem.

I bet that the AI won´t reach the waypoint. 100% reproducible.

Problems:

AI likes to stick to the right side of the road, even when there is only one lane (Dirtroad)

AI likes to cut corners wich is ok in left, but hazardous in right turns.

[bad benson 1733]

Maybe it's my settings somewhere, and I don't like overly accurate AI, but I'm just not seeing overly accurate AI? Last night I was able to move in & out of cover to take pot-shots at AI who returned fire, but did not headshot me unless I was careless and stayed out too long. Range was ~300-400m, and I'm on release build.

i'm pretty sure that the biggest problem is dedicated servers. when i hosted my own coop mission from my pc the AI was fine. as soon as my friend hosted it from his small dedi they became godlike aiming wise. i now had to add a loop to influence AI skill all the time since they spawn constantly. so just the accuracy problem might get solved by giving people the option to simply influence it on the dedi. my buddy tried changing settings and it was still the same after that. not sure he did it right but i experienced the same on many public servers.

With regards to the discussed video, it seems like the "movement" of the target is not actual movement, but DR - Dead Reckoning of the target's movement based on last known kinematic data. If the target didn't keep its direction and/or speed, it's not accurate, but rather a "guesstimate" guess by the AI.

i think so too. the lock on symbol gives a false impression. i think it's more about accuracy. as soon as that is fixed and we get all the nice AI changes back (did we? nothing in the changelogs, still feels off) the AI should be a good base to work on. the way the AI is shooting through the bush is troubling though. so i agree with maturin about putting some focus o that first.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Bad Benson

[dmarkwick 261]

Did you actually check the video ? What more do you need in terms of proof ?

I don't regard a video as proof, but I can regard my own actual experience as valid :)

Don't defend something that isn't meant to be defended. There is an obvious flaw, as shown in the video, and that needs to be fixed.

Calm yourself, I haven't "defended" anything, I'm only reporting what I experience, don't be so sensitive to input. That looks to be a different issue to overly accurate AI, assuming you're talking about the same video I just saw, which looked like AI seeing things though bushes?

I can't grasp how can you play this series for that long and miss that. It's one of the things this game is known for, and one of its biggest problems.

All I can tell you is: I'm not seeing it. At 300-400m, I get what I would call reasonable accuracy not super accuracy. As I said, it may be my game settings.

[gammadust 12]

Re: AI retains maximum knowledge of target position/movement even when totally obscured (i.e., can kill through bushes) i added LOS cover checks to the repros to better inform conclusions. Please vote it.

[froggyluv 2135]

I agree that the shot from directly behind the bush looks a bit shady as a guestimate shot from that range and prone just seems unlikely. The shots were he was outside the bush but clearly has some grassy terrain in front of his face I'd cut some slack on as for one thing, we use zoom and the AI should also have that benefit yet I don't believe we see the effect. The other is that we can use camera angle (3rd person) as well as incremental stance which the AI can't so that somewhat evens it out.

Overall I don't believe the AI are robot accurate as say, an Arma1 when first released. I remember being 1 shot killed in ridiculous Terminator fashion and I happen to like REALLY lethal AI!

Heres a video I posted in Windwalking's AI thread that shows what I believe to be a nice, drawn out firefight and hope to see vanilla achieve this at some point (minus the bunny hops). The fact that basically a 10 vs 10 purely AI fight can last for 8 minutes is pretty impressive as well as the use of the indoor space. Props to TPW/Windwalking/Zooloo25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rRbh3iX5KM

Another thing this clearly shows is that we need more interior structures built like this - big, open spaced,friendly to the AI in which they are free to maneuver and use cover

[gammadust 12]

@froggyluv

"we use zoom and the AI should also have that benefit yet I don't believe we see the effect."

Disagree. AI does not have issues with resolution or how big is the screen area occupied by a unit. In fact i believe this to be the very reason it is hard to simulate visual perception in AI terms. Zooming helps a player identify a target only because there are more pixels to find. This is not the issue with AI (i suppose). I suspect AI follows a threshold upon which given a "spotDistance" and a "spotTime" it detects or not a threat in a very binary fashion (these are not alone: fov, camuflage are to be expected also). This as opposed to a very human like "fuzzy detection": "that looks like an enemy but may be a civillian or a simple bush", "that is most likely an enemy", "that is certainly an enemy" and so on.

With this i mean that AI is not exacly in a disavantage in regards to detection, i say this mostly experiencing AI with no mods and at regular skill level.

"The other is that we can use camera angle (3rd person) as well as incremental stance which the AI can't so that somewhat evens it out."

Mind: 3rd person where able... but still i don't really think these differences actually even out. Not so much because is not possible to win against AI overall (we can indeed) but because there are very specific instances where it is absolutely unbalanced in favour of AI and/or vice-versa.

Maybe globally it evens out (given some settings and actual human players skill) yet the effort towards balance in more discreet circumstances should be pushed forward.

Edited September 25, 2013 by gammadust

[bad benson 1733]

The other is that we can use camera angle (3rd person)

that should never lead to any design decitions for AI though. i don't want to be forced to use 3rd person against AI too now (like i am now on lots of PvP servers to be on the same level with everyone else) just because that is taken into account. make them deadly? yes. give them something similar like abusing 3rd person view? hell no!

i think the AI should never get any cheats that create unconvincing situations. i have no problem getting wrecked by them but for me it's about immersion and gameplay too. a good detection system is important to give quick flanking maneuvres around houses a meaning, just to name an example.

i'd really like to hear a dev statement about what of the past AI changes is back in the game and what not though. it was the most solid and "realistic" feeling AI in the series. i'm afraid to judge the AI right now because we can never be sure, if it's a random glitch or if the it's something that still needs work.

[froggyluv 2135]

What I mean is that it's pretty darn easy for any decent player to nail targets at 300m using zoom, much harder than RL imo. Yes, we need it for pixel reasons but alls I'm saying is the AI should have the same or slightly better than us chance. And for 3rd person, I don't use it at all as I'm really enjoying the challenge of soley playing on Elite and find it makes the game much more challenging in a fun way. What Im saying is we have the advantage of small, nuanced movements to work around ground clutter that no AI in any game can fully compensate for. We can't have a blade of grass block the LOS of AI and expect it to know how to make the slight adjustment and if we did, the AI would look even more idiotic not being able to hit anything.

Again, I agree on the 'solid' bush firing being faulty, the grass not so much.

[msy 22]

AI outside the building far away can "hear" I kill the one of the other group of theirs?

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14739

The second test. If I am the bluefor, then start the demo. If I kill the enemy with one shot, the enemies outside won't change any condition, even if I continue to shoot the window to make more noise, even if I move the enemy group from 70m to 10m in the editor. If I kill the enemy with more than one shot (e.g I shot his shoulder or leg then his head etc.) then I make the enemies outside alert even they are 70m far away!

So the second test really shows some ridiculous thing about AI ISSUE. So I change the Issue category. I really hope you can discuss it again.

[jgaz-uk 132]

I don't regard a video as proof, but I can regard my own actual experience as valid :)

Calm yourself, I haven't "defended" anything, I'm only reporting what I experience, don't be so sensitive to input. That looks to be a different issue to overly accurate AI, assuming you're talking about the same video I just saw, which looked like AI seeing things though bushes?

All I can tell you is: I'm not seeing it. At 300-400m, I get what I would call reasonable accuracy not super accuracy. As I said, it may be my game settings.

"Your game settings" is exactly it, on Dedicated servers the settings are currently maxed to what seems to be super AI, and none adjustable. If SP or none dedicated settings can be adjusted.

[Bouben 3]

Old AI bug still present in A3.

AI is using wire fences as a cover. In urban scenarios this is really a gamebreaker. AI should not consider those wire fence objects as a cover.

And moreover, it looks so stupid...