AI Discussion (dev branch)

[fabrizio_t 58]

Must say I don't see the same ai I did before release. I remember that the ai were almost super human in their ability to snap to a target.

Now i find AI units slower in picking targets, as they used to be before the beta "CQB improvements".

Looks like they lost awareness, behaving like deaf again in CQB.

[Bouben 3]

Now i find AI units slower in picking targets, as they used to be before the beta "CQB improvements".

Looks like they lost awareness, behaving like deaf again in CQB.

God damn, why is it so hard for BIS to simply clarify this so we don't have to waste time speculating...

[klamacz 447]

I checked both stable and development branches on Steam, both are up to date with latest AI changes and fixes.

If you see any issues, please put them on feedback tracker or here, but remember to put also exact version of game and repro mission.

[instagoat 133]

The AI needs some work towards exploiting cover and learning to stay off the streets whenever possible, in towns as well as in the countryside. They also need to stop "hiding on the wrong side of the wall".

The mission below (sqm file only) is set in Kavala, 1x Merkava vs 3x AAF squads, with the tank sitting in a street junction turning the streets into obvious killzones. Observe the AI moving outside of cover, across the tanks line of fire, often even at a walk. No use of smoke (Does that even do anything?) or grenades or anything.

Also, the vehicle's defensive system doesn't work, why model it?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9U3xtNMOp_8ejdpQ0VNM0pZQ3c/edit?usp=sharing

[msy 22]

The AI needs some work towards exploiting cover and learning to stay off the streets whenever possible, in towns as well as in the countryside. They also need to stop "hiding on the wrong side of the wall".

The mission below (sqm file only) is set in Kavala, 1x Merkava vs 3x AAF squads, with the tank sitting in a street junction turning the streets into obvious killzones. Observe the AI moving outside of cover, across the tanks line of fire, often even at a walk. No use of smoke (Does that even do anything?) or grenades or anything.

Also, the vehicle's defensive system doesn't work, why model it?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9U3xtNMOp_8ejdpQ0VNM0pZQ3c/edit?usp=sharing

The AI should know if he detected enemies in front of him then he should shoot behind cover rather than in front of it.

[instagoat 133]

The AI should know if he detected enemies in front of him then he should shoot behind cover rather than in front of it.

The behaviour is generally not adaptive enough to the threat. When AI detect tanks, they should take all possible effort to find hard cover, preferably indoors and upstairs. They canÄt use the buildings, they just occasionally walk through them. In ten test runs, I had one of the AI once on an upper storey, and there he stood on one of the nodes on a balcony, in plain view of the street. (Not where the tank was, but still risky).

They are also completely ignoring which way the tank is looking. The tank also has eyes in the back of its head, ie, it can spot enemies without looking in their direction. I ran across the street behind it with the turret, commander and driver looking the other way, and it still spotted me and opened fire. If it had cameras that players could access too, okay, but right now this magic vision vehicles have, especially tanks, is annoying. Tanks are incredibly blind even with modern technology to aid them. I have been inside Leopard 2, Leopard 1 and I´ve seen the inside layout of an ex-NVA T-series tank recovery vehicle (probably was a T-55 based one, can't remember), and how little you can see through these episcopes is astonishing. This is not reflected at all for the AI and needs to be addressed. Tanks should easily spot anything they are looking at, and everything outside their view should be invisible until they actively scan for it.

[dmarkwick 261]

Very, very, very occasionally I'll get an enemy unit enter a building and come upstairs looking for me. So I know they can do it :) but they seem reluctant to even enter the building at all most of the time. They prefer to dance around outside :D

[xendance 3]

Could someone tell me why the AI shoots at APCs with their rifles? It's really annoying to do anything resembling an ambush when the AI fires rifle rounds at APCs instead of using the bazooka on their back...

[Smurf 12]

Could someone tell me why the AI shoots at APCs with their rifles? It's really annoying to do anything resembling an ambush when the AI fires rifle rounds at APCs instead of using the bazooka on their back...

Was looking for the new muzzle flash on the T-100 and noticed they use just the MG at the Marshall aswell. Weird.

[maturin 12]

Was looking for the new muzzle flash on the T-100 and noticed they use just the MG at the Marshall aswell. Weird.

This is correct behavior, as long as the main gun is used too.

On a realistic (but not modeled) level, machinegun fire will stress out the crew and possibly damage optics and tires.

And since 12.7mm rounds can penetrate all the game's wheeled APCs at some points, you could wipe out the passengers.

[Smurf 12]

This is correct behavior, as long as the main gun is used too.

On a realistic (but not modeled) level, machinegun fire will stress out the crew and possibly damage optics and tires.

And since 12.7mm rounds can penetrate all the game's wheeled APCs at some points, you could wipe out the passengers.

Sure. But the Marshall was still alive and even shot down a helo (shouldn't behave like a CAS plane doing runs btw) yet the T-100 was just using it's MG.

But I will gave another look at it because the T-100 could have been damage before losing its main gun.

[xendance 3]

This is correct behavior, as long as the main gun is used too.

On a realistic (but not modeled) level, machinegun fire will stress out the crew and possibly damage optics and tires.

And since 12.7mm rounds can penetrate all the game's wheeled APCs at some points, you could wipe out the passengers.

Too bad infantry with their puny 6.5 mm rifles try to do the same.

[Gwynbleidd 28]

Could someone tell me why the AI shoots at APCs with their rifles? It's really annoying to do anything resembling an ambush when the AI fires rifle rounds at APCs instead of using the bazooka on their back...

Well if you are the team leader, you can easily fix that. You should order them to hold fire no matter if you are expecting APCs or infantry, and when you're all set, tell them to open fire.

[xendance 3]

Well if you are the team leader, you can easily fix that. You should order them to hold fire no matter if you are expecting APCs or infantry, and when you're all set, tell them to open fire.

That's not a fix. It's just a workaround which works only in very specific situations ;)

[Gwynbleidd 28]

I was explaining for a very specific quoted situation (ambush) :P Also works good when sneaking up on enemies.

Anyway just to make it clear, do you have a problem with it because AI shoots at APCs with their rifle, while having AT launcher on the back, or because they are shooting at APC even without a launcher?

[xendance 3]

I was explaining for a very specific quoted situation (ambush) :P Also works good when sneaking up on enemies.

Anyway just to make it clear, do you have a problem with it because AI shoots at APCs with their rifle, while having AT launcher on the back, or because they are shooting at APC even without a launcher?

Both. The whole squads keeps shooting at the APC with their rifle. It takes like 10 seconds before the AT guy snaps out of it and thinks "oh hey I have the launcher on my back, better use it".

[Gwynbleidd 28]

Weird I don't know, maybe if you select only AT guy and order him to target the APC, he will snap out of it, or maybe he is switching weapons, and can't fire yet. I remember trying it out in a SP mission, ->

(check 4:20-4:40 only) and it worked beautifully. I had a lot of crappy problems with AI, but not this one, though that video was a month ago, and things may be different now, since I didn't play much with friendly AI lately.

[Azzur33 1]

The AI is reluctant to shoot armored APC's with launchers, which is not a good thing at all.

Instead of using AT, a group shoots grenades, like they would do against very lightly armored vehicle.

The grenades of course have no real effect, and AT guy just hides saving his precious ammo.

When the APC is changed to a heavier tank, then things change.

No more grenades flying and group getting murdered, and AT guy uses his weapon as soon as possible.

This has to be changed.

AT should engage and treat APC's as equal threat as the main tank, because the group has no other way to actually destroy an APC or force the crew out.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Azzur33

[xendance 3]

The AI is reluctant to shoot armored APC's with launchers, which is not a good thing at all.

Instead of using AT, a group shoots grenades, like they would do against very lightly armored vehicle.

The grenades of course have no real effect, and AT guy just hides saving his precious ammo.

When the APC is changed to a heavier tank, then things change.

No more grenades flying and group getting murdered, and AT guy uses his weapon as soon as possible.

This has to be changed.

AT should engage and treat APC's as equal threat as the main tank, because the group has no other way to actually destroy an APC or force the crew out.

This is precisely what I mean.

Ideally the AI should be smart enough to ready the launcher when someone in the squad yells "enemy apc!", of course it should do it in cover and if he isn't being fired upon :D

[Bouben 3]

The behaviour is generally not adaptive enough to the threat. When AI detect tanks, they should take all possible effort to find hard cover, preferably indoors and upstairs. They canÄt use the buildings, they just occasionally walk through them. In ten test runs, I had one of the AI once on an upper storey, and there he stood on one of the nodes on a balcony, in plain view of the street. (Not where the tank was, but still risky).

They are also completely ignoring which way the tank is looking. The tank also has eyes in the back of its head, ie, it can spot enemies without looking in their direction. I ran across the street behind it with the turret, commander and driver looking the other way, and it still spotted me and opened fire. If it had cameras that players could access too, okay, but right now this magic vision vehicles have, especially tanks, is annoying. Tanks are incredibly blind even with modern technology to aid them. I have been inside Leopard 2, Leopard 1 and I´ve seen the inside layout of an ex-NVA T-series tank recovery vehicle (probably was a T-55 based one, can't remember), and how little you can see through these episcopes is astonishing. This is not reflected at all for the AI and needs to be addressed. Tanks should easily spot anything they are looking at, and everything outside their view should be invisible until they actively scan for it.

Very true. This is one of the reasons I tend to play missions without armored vehicles at all. I can't stand the unfinished state of things like this and seeing my squad being wiped out too often for stupid reasons. This really should be adressed - the infantry vs armor combat.

[maturin 12]

I never trust my AT soldiers to respond in time.

You can see why there are problems, though. It's the most complicated combat situation you can come across. The firepower and optics of the vehicle are overwhelming, so it's either 100% hard cover or death. And you're only likely to get one shot with your launcher before being annihilated, so the AI can't simply be coded to fire at the first opportunity. Even a human has a stressful and uncertain choice of shot timing based on optimum range, target speed and heading, evasive maneuvers, predicted LoS blocks and above all a projectile with a lot of sway and a difficult trajectory. And if you make the AI proficient, they will just unfairly murder the player when they are in the vehicle.

Basically, we need light AT4s that normal riflemen can carry around.

Edited October 3, 2013 by PurePassion
Removed the accidental Double-post

[fabrizio_t 58]

I checked both stable and development branches on Steam, both are up to date with latest AI changes and fixes.

If you see any issues, please put them on feedback tracker or here, but remember to put also exact version of game and repro mission.

Good to know.

Yet i don't think AI is behaving as it was with latest beta builds including CQB improvements, prior the official patch.

It would be useful to do some side-to-side comparison with previous version, but AFAIK that's not possible, right?

Edited October 3, 2013 by fabrizio_T

[Dwarden 1124]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOcNSfT3xx8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnRW4qpGVSA

some driving issues posted on STEAM discussions, unfortunately the author has no time to create repro mission :(

[xendance 3]

I personally would disregard any issues with the AI if it happens when the game is sped up. It's quite obvious that the different state machines for driving and other AI don't execute any faster even though the game is faster. This results in less accurate path evaluation for example. You can notice it when vehicles sort of wobble in turns when the AI over-steers constantly.

[2nd ranger 282]

Ha! I just picked a random town to do the same test with a HEMTT, and not only did I coincidentally pick the same town, but the HEMTT is now stuck in that exact location.

I was going to say the same thing about speeding up the action, it does in fact mess up AI pathfinding. Though obviously in this case there is an issue, the AI does tend to take corners too tightly. Even a smaller vehicle like the hunter tries to turn way too early and just bashes into the sides of buildings.

Edited October 3, 2013 by 2nd Ranger