Weapon Sway Tweaking

[Adjutant 10]

This is one negative about your automatic tensing idea Wolfstriked - what if people just want to look through the ironsights without the need to actually aim immediately? I can see automatic hold breath upon ADS helping those who don't find the hold breath key natural enough, but I would actually prefer to be in more control. I still agree about weapon weight effecting the time it takes to aim properly and the amount of time that that proper aim lasts though.

The main arguement against a separate "hold breath" key is that it becomes harder to work with.

What I can suggest is to have the "sprint" button work as "hold breath" when you go into sights. You can cancel the steady aim interval by pressing this button again. In my opinion steady aim should last somewhere between 5-10 seconds, but the devs will know better.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Adjutant

[gatordev 219]

You are absolutely right in that arma 2 was not a twitch shooter even without weapon sway - but there was one reason for this - negative mouse acceleration. Now that negative mouse acceleration is gone in arma 3, it opens up twitch shooting quite a bit more. Even with the current sway arma 3 is much more a twitch shooter than arma 3 (which is actually good in CQB but not so much in far range - hence weapon sway).

Its weird how, although sway can be very annoying against aimbot ai, for the most part I actually quite enjoy it (in contrast to your dislike of it). There is nothing more satisfying than seeing a guy running at angle across your view at 400 metres starting to disapperar over the horizan. You put your sights as close as you can before holding breath lining up and releasing a shot and watching it arc into him sending him into a faceplant. For me the sway and breath holding add extra challenge and immersion. Shooting is no longer just clicking on the guys. In MP when I see someone drop a guy from 500 metress out in one shot I actually commend him for his good shot, unlike arma 2 where everyone could do that with ease. The more challenge the more reward too me. That's one of the reason I like arma so much, its challenging and at times not fun/frustrating, but somehow that makes success so much more rewarding. Anyhow to each his own I guess.

I can understand you enjoying the challenge, and if it was simply something that added a bit of skill to shooting, I'd be all for it. For me, though, I have two issues (nothing new here, just recapping) that cause my frustration:

1. I can't acquire and hold on target as easily in-game as I can with something like a red dot as I can in real life, be it standing, sitting, or prone.

2. In an effort to make up for the above, I'm having to work harder in controlling the mouse/clicking the breath button which makes my hand/wrist fatigue faster which makes it less fun. I need to mess around with making the hold breath function a key press rather than a mouse press, but the issue is still there.

Well I'll be completely honest, I have never used a sling as support while firing. It just never really seemed like it would offer that much more stability. Now that I try it, although not actually shooting something, I am actually surprised how much it helps. I would not say it is so steady to keep on target at 300 metres. In fact it isn't really all that much more stable in terms of range of motion, but the sway is much more rhythmic and consistent - more based on breathing than on random twitches of the arms. Thanks for enlightening me.

I wouldn't say that having a sling allows one to keep on target when not even trying to aim at 300 metres, but it does result in lower frequency, more consistent sway then currently ingame. The amplitude of the sway is about spot on as I see it though - just speed and path is a bit off if you are to assume the character is using a sling. i also found that the sling was hard to keep in place and change stance or orientation quickly though... how practical is it to use slings in a combat environemnt to actually support your weapon while firing do you think?

I'm glad you tried it. If the sling is set up right and it's adjusted correctly, you can just hold an AR-style weapon with your strong hand and it will stay on target fairly well. Obviously you'll fatigue doing that, but it's amazingly stable.

If you look at plenty of pictures of videos of modern soldiers, they're fighting with slings. Slings adjust, so if you need to shoot behind a barricade, you can let it out. If you need to go prone, you can go down urban prone (on your side). A sling is critical to managing the weapon along with all the other crap. So having a "more" stable sight picture in game can certainly be explained by having a sling.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Maybe make it so that hold breath function is always on?It just feels off to me when I fight the sway that is left after I press hold breath(and when standing/crouched you still have to fight the sway when holding breath) and right when I go to pull trigger the weapons sways worse than before.And then after that its two seconds of steadiness and then worse sway etc.Coupled with the recoil that alone makes you have to recenter the aimpoint on target makes for a non-intuitive feel IMO.Might as well go prone because fighting is useless while standing or crouched.I see Arma3 as a P-FPS as in you better go prone or you will die.I don't know what mindset BI has against fighting in standing/crouched but I really feel they make those positions too harsh.If firing the weapons while crouched/standing always had hold breath applied you still need to fight sway but you remove the annoying erratic breathing sway mechanism...which would be a good thing IMO.

[blackjacktom 10]

Hold breath last 6 seconds. This is long enough for me to get 4-5 shots on a simple target at 300m while standing and using an RCO. You only have to wait 6 more seconds to recover. This means that you can spend 1/2 of your time with a relatively stable aim.

I don't see how this is a problem, if anything it is too easy.

EDIT: Have you tried rebinding your hold breath key? I have it as left shift.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Hold breath last 6 seconds. This is long enough for me to get 4-5 shots on a simple target at 300m while standing and using an RCO. You only have to wait 6 more seconds to recover. This means that you can spend 1/2 of your time with a relatively stable aim.

I don't see how this is a problem, if anything it is too easy.

EDIT: Have you tried rebinding your hold breath key? I have it as left shift.

Thanks,I will try rebinding the key as I never have done that.

[Anachoretes 10]

If you rebind - you add new button in aiming process. Why? Zoom and Hold Breath is something that must work together.

[chortles 263]

... because some people really do prefer to do zoom and hold breath separately?

By the way, Left Shift as both Hold Breath and Sprint only works so long as you're stationary; unlike "arcadey shooter" games where there is no separate hold breath function separate from aiming down sights (and even then it's usually sniper scopes only?), in Arma 3 moving with that keybind held down will have Sprint override the Hold Breath.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Its a pain as its another button I agree and I rebound hold breath back to Rmouse.

Here is a new one....you press hold breath and you get the 6 secs of stability at which point the sway slowly increases to standard rate and the your kaput and must lower weapon for a bit.

[down8 30]

Hello. I get my binocs, I hold them up to my eyes and I see.... that I'm drunk.... A special forces drunk operator ;-) Fun and realistic.

[Anachoretes 10]

because some people really do prefer to do zoom and hold breath separately?

So, do this out of iron sight. But it's all personal.

ArmA is very flexible in this regard. And this is good thing.

---------- Post added at 11:08 ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 ----------

Down8

Yes, its realistic. IRL you eye just ignore this swaying and they have ability to fast refocus, tracking, etc. In game it some kind of FX. Thats all. Maybe, we need Hold Breathe for Binocular to resepresent condition in which they will not move.

[Stockishgsr 1]

I know I am way late to the party, but I noticed that weapon sway while prone is just too much. I don't ever remember having that much movement in real life during military training even without a bipod. Trying to nail a target a 800+ meters, while doable just seems like it takes much more work than it should with the sniper rifle in game currently.

Hopefully it gets toned down to a more realistic level soon, not a game breaker just something that has bothered me since Operation Flashpoint but ignored it due to me still being able to complete missions or scenarios.

[progamer 14]

I know I am way late to the party, but I noticed that weapon sway while prone is just too much. I don't ever remember having that much movement in real life during military training even without a bipod. Trying to nail a target a 800+ meters, while doable just seems like it takes much more work than it should with the sniper rifle in game currently.

Hopefully it gets toned down to a more realistic level soon, not a game breaker just something that has bothered me since Operation Flashpoint but ignored it due to me still being able to complete missions or scenarios.

Various people want to keep it as a gameplay mechanic rather than make it realistic. It should be made more realistic, as I found mods with realistic scope sway were insanely more fun to play with than vanilla. I hope the scope sway can be lowered to a more realistic level an with a somewhat predictable pattern that you would have in real life.

[mantls 2]

i can only agree!

The current sway feels like your arms are made of rubber. Also the scope moves through the screen, that should only be the case with Pistols/ Weapons without a stock in general as you'd usually have your cheek rested on the Stock.

[-Coulum- 35]

It seemed there was also a large range of abilities and what is considered "easy" differed from player to player. At 800 metres I find that plinking away targets in prone is easy and doesn't even require the hold breath key.

If anything I would make the sway a tiny bit higher and then make hold breath a bit more steadier (and of course add bipods and resting but thats another topic). When I suggested this (OP) though it seemed there was a large amount of players who didn't find the sway so easy to handle and apparently couldn't hit targets that easy (I had a hard time believing it but I guess I accept it.) There was a big discussion about whether the sway was realistic or not. One side pointed out that holding your breath in game is the equivalent of aiming in real life while aiming down the sights in game is the equivalent of looking down the sights but not actually taking the time to properly aim, or practice good shooting. Some didn't understant this others thought that sway should then be more predictable and others just agreed.

In the end the biggest reason for discrepancy was because.

Group A: In real life it is hard to hit a target at 800m away. I find it easy in arma thus sway should stay the same/increase so that timing and concentration levels are more like in real life.

Group B: In real life it is hard to hit a target at 800m away. I find it even harder in arma thus sway should be decreased so that timing and concentration levels are more like in real life.

Group C: I can shoot the wings of a knat at 800 metres away in real life.

In my opinion C was full of bullocks, but A and B really both had good points and basially came down to how good they were at controlling the sway. There is no way to appease both aside from mods.

I must say though, in terms of results, that for me personally firefights are way better in arma 3. In part because of the sway (more so in pvp since ai are crazy shots). They last longer and it really makes you think: do I have time for go for the head shot or should I just pop off a few hope for the best and duck into cover. Makes suppressing and manoeuvring to close with the enemy much more useful than in arma 2 where it was best to just sit on the hill top and plink away with magnification.

Also the scope moves through the screen, that should only be the case with Pistols/ Weapons without a stock in general as you'd usually have your cheek rested on the Stock.

Use TMR scope mod. It fixes it for magnified optics (if you're alright with 2d scopes). I do agree that the sway of the gun should, for the most part not be independent of your view since you should ideally have a proper cheek weld.

And of course remember guys, sway appears larger with magnification (as in real life). At 800m each "swing" of sway might displace your aim by half a metre. Thats a change in angle of 2.2 seconds - which is 2.2/3600 of a degree = 0.0006 degrees. That is very tiny considering a 1mm twitch of the arm could throw your aim by 1.5 degrees...

Edited October 13, 2013 by -Coulum-

[mamasan8 11]

TMR Scope mod is nice but it can only be used offline, which I do.

So 'fixing' sway would benefit in multiplayer as well. IMHO, it is overdone atm. Pressing 'Hold breath' every time I shoot should not be a pre-requisite.

To take an example. If I am playing a machinegunner and meet someone close-up, 50-100 metres, I don't use scope. Hipfiring works better.

Not realistic. Why? Because I'm more accurate hipfiring than trying to compensate for sway/recoil/breathing while scoped.

Edited October 13, 2013 by mamasan8

[-Coulum- 35]

Pressing 'Hold breath' every time I shoot should not be a pre-requisite.

But why not? Think of hold breath not only as hodling the character's breath but also as tensing up the muscles, aligning the sights, steadying the weapon, focusing in and actually aiming. In reality when you are shooting for accuracy do you not do all those things before taking the shot. Not holding breath is the equivalent of nonchalantly looking down the sights and popping off a shot without using any technique - only really reliable for under 50m.

If I am playing a machinegunner and meet someone close-up, 50-100 metres, I don't use scope. Hipfiring works better.

Not realistic. Why? Because I'm more accurate hipfiring than trying to compensate for sway/recoil/breathing while scoped.

:confused: But hipfire has the exact same sway pattern.

And once again it seems like everyone has there own results. At 75m I find that hipfire takes about a 25 rounds to kill (with crosshairs enabled (which is unrealistic), let alone without), rapidly firing scoped in but no hold breath takes 5 to 10 shots, scoped but taking the time to aim takes 2 or 4 and holding breath while taking as much time as necessary takes 1 or 2. This is pretty good in my opinion especially considering the guy is wearing armour. Shooting across the length wise distance of a soccer field isn't something you can do in reality without taking a bit of time to aim (hold breath). At least for me it isn't.

Recoil is another thing separate from sway. I must say that the 7.62 mg is hard t keep on target at 75m but that is not due to sway and imo people should be running and gunning with these annyways.

[mach2infinity 12]

TMR Scope mod is nice but it can only be used offline, which I do.

So 'fixing' sway would benefit in multiplayer as well. IMHO, it is overdone atm. Pressing 'Hold breath' every time I shoot should not be a pre-requisite.

I strongly agree here. It's one thing that's soured my gaming experience a bit with Arma 3 is the egregious swaying as though I have post-alcoholic shakes or Parkinson's. Even in close range engagements I sometimes struggle to get shots on target because of the swaying and how random it is. I thought ArmA 2 got it right where you have recoil with every shot and sway if you've exerted yourself but then once you 'rest' on your feet the aiming settles. I also think having to go prone for any engagement as a way of countering it is gratuitous.

[-Coulum- 35]

...Pressing 'Hold breath' every time I shoot should not be a pre-requisite.

I strongly agree here.

But what about what I say here?

Think of hold breath not only as hodling the character's breath but also as tensing up the muscles, aligning the sights, steadying the weapon, focusing in and actually aiming. In reality when you are shooting for accuracy do you not do all those things before taking the shot. Not holding breath is the equivalent of nonchalantly looking down the sights and popping off a shot without using any technique - only really reliable for under 50m.

It seems that you guys want it so the character is constantly aiming with all the precision he can muster 24/7 as long as his sights are up. But this just isn't practical in reality. You take the effort to make fine precision, steadying adjustments right before you fire. Doing all the time would just be tiresome.

Even in close range engagements I sometimes struggle to get shots on target because of the swaying and how random it is.

Do you think the hit ratios are high close quarters fights?

As far as I know in reality shooters would much prefer to shoot using a bipod or sand back than just prone, crouched or standing. This is because it is a stabler position to shoot from. If in arma there was no sway while standing, crouched or prone what would the use of a bipods, weapon and resting and "holding breath"(hold breath is such a bad word for it because in real life just holding breath in isn't good - breath control would be better suited) be besides recoil handling?

Sway serves a very important purposes and it may be annoying but it definitely isn't "gratuitous".

[Smurf 12]

Didn't read anything but IMO the sway should be REALLY great when ADS unrested or "un-bipod-ed" (when those two come into the game), even more when you are winded\tired; Longer firefights, better choose of terrain\cover = huge advantage, less pot-shots.

CQB shouldn't be so affected since it has more to do with recoil, and this is another point that should be greatly tweaked. The random spread used in many games is more true to life than the "one-way-up" model of recoil that is used on Arma currently.

Gunning isn't fun in Arma, more like a struggle.

[-Coulum- 35]

Didn't read anything but IMO the sway should be REALLY great when ADS unrested or "un-bipod-ed" (when those two come into the game), even more when you are winded\tired; Longer firefights, better choose of terrain\cover = huge advantage, less pot-shots.

Exactly. Its a shame that bipods aren't in because it would allow for so much more options.

CQB shouldn't be so affected since it has more to do with recoil, and this is another point that should be greatly tweaked. The random spread used in many games is more true to life than the "one-way-up" model of recoil that is used on Arma currently.

Yes the effect on CQB is minimal but it does make a difference. Ie there is less insta headshotting ala CS or COD. This is good - from what I know, in reality doing that is extremely hard because the stress/surprise/panick that often comes in those situations. It introduces the need for the player to decide between accuracy and volume and time.

Agree recoil should not only be up like it is.

[Longjocks 0]

My main issue isn't so much with the amount of sway. I do think it's a tad too much and erratic, but I'm perfectly fine with having to put some effort in and use mouse input to keep it on target. This is where the problem lies - you're constantly in a fight with the direction of the sway. E.g. The sway is on an arc to the right and you mouse left to compensate - it's like you're continually fighting an invisible force and jerky aim movement is a result. While applying mouse input the strength of the sway needs to be reduced to a smaller amount and can start to return to normal once no input is detected. Maybe it can be determined by the amount of mouse acceleration as well. I don't know, but some sort of change would be desirable.

[Hatchet_AS 201]

My main issue isn't so much with the amount of sway. I do think it's a tad too much and erratic, but I'm perfectly fine with having to put some effort in and use mouse input to keep it on target. This is where the problem lies - you're constantly in a fight with the direction of the sway. E.g. The sway is on an arc to the right and you mouse left to compensate - it's like you're continually fighting an invisible force and jerky aim movement is a result. While applying mouse input the strength of the sway needs to be reduced to a smaller amount and can start to return to normal once no input is detected. Maybe it can be determined by the amount of mouse acceleration as well. I don't know, but some sort of change would be desirable.

I didn't read the whole thread, but this accurately describes how I feel about things currently. Even with having things tweaked more to my liking, the mouse battle mentioned is really the issue I have with things. Just doesn't seem intuitive at all. Not completely sure if that is purely sway, or recoil effects and sway. Either way the suggestion quoted, seems like it might be a really good idea.

[-Coulum- 35]

My main issue isn't so much with the amount of sway. I do think it's a tad too much and erratic, but I'm perfectly fine with having to put some effort in and use mouse input to keep it on target. This is where the problem lies - you're constantly in a fight with the direction of the sway. E.g. The sway is on an arc to the right and you mouse left to compensate - it's like you're continually fighting an invisible force and jerky aim movement is a result.

Hold breath is your best friend. Seriously if you can use it right you can basically shoot as accurately standing as prone - just at a lower rate of fire of course. Unless you are at close range "holding breath" is how you should be compensating for sway, not mouse movement.

Even with having things tweaked more to my liking, the mouse battle mentioned is really the issue I have with things. Just doesn't seem intuitive at all. Not completely sure if that is purely sway, or recoil effects and sway. Either way the suggestion quoted, seems like it might be a really good idea.

The thing if it were intuitive (ie. easier) would it not defeat the purpose. I really can't think of a system that would generate the same results but "feel more natural". It should be hard to shoot someone from 400 m standing. How are you going to keep that limitation while also making it feel easy? Eliminating sway when you move the mouse would make shooting at 400 m in any stance super easy. Pretty much the aiming ease of Quake with longer ranges and bullet drop.

[EDcase 87]

I also think the sway is too much in lower poses such as crouched.

While I agree it should be linked to stamina/tiredness etc. its just too high at the moment.

It feels like fighting a drunk avatar.

[maffa 29]

i am afraid we are mixing topics here. Aiming is the result of the management of different situations: eyesight, muscle voluntary movement, muscle involuntary movement, weapon balance, available weapon resting, ballistic/windage correction. Either we explicitly state which parameters we are including or excluding by this list or we are damned to misunderstanding.

I always assumed the puppet in uniform that i play in the game stands for a trained, combat ready professional with good standard skills by an Army point of view. Everything that puppet does, it does by Army standard. When he takes aim, he should use all the techniques enhancing his chances to hit, regarding arm positions, breath control, muscle tensing and so on. If an Army infantryman doesnt find hard to aim and shoot a target 300m far away with a holo sight, neither should i. If he does, i would like that his average dispersion would be replicated in my my own gaming experience by some mean. When he shoots several times, if he automatically corrects his aim in order not to fire to the moon at the end of his 4th shot, my puppet should too.

So i trust Wildfire6, when he says that trained pros can hit a 300m away target with a red dot no prob, because my own result in focusing and taking a picture by holding my camera with nothing keeping my elbows up are better than my supposed-pro puppet aiming his rifle with its butt solidly pushing his shoulder.

Besides, i cant really understand sway. When i get tired my aim doesnt sway, it trembles. :confused: