Weapon Sway Tweaking

[EDcase 87]

Well, when you've been running with several Kilos of kit on your back and then try aiming it will sway quite a bit.

BUT it should be steadier the lower the stance. (For game play sake at least)

Perhaps the problem originates from the time it takes to get exhausted and recover.

In ARMA3 you only have to run a few metres before your character is exhausted and that causes massive sway.

Then it takes quite a long time to recover and return to normal. (steadier)

As a trained soldier you should be able to run further before getting that tired.

At the moment even walking and tactical pace will get you exhausted. Thats just wrong

Edited October 15, 2013 by EDcase

[maffa 29]

but then again we are talking about people that train to be professional soldiers, not pie eaters. This is normal.

[dmarkwick 261]

i am afraid we are mixing topics here. Aiming is the result of the management of different situations: eyesight, muscle voluntary movement, muscle involuntary movement, weapon balance, available weapon resting, ballistic/windage correction. Either we explicitly state which parameters we are including or excluding by this list or we are damned to misunderstanding.

I always assumed the puppet in uniform that i play in the game stands for a trained, combat ready professional with good standard skills by an Army point of view. Everything that puppet does, it does by Army standard. When he takes aim, he should use all the techniques enhancing his chances to hit, regarding arm positions, breath control, muscle tensing and so on. If an Army infantryman doesnt find hard to aim and shoot a target 300m far away with a holo sight, neither should i. If he does, i would like that his average dispersion would be replicated in my my own gaming experience by some mean. When he shoots several times, if he automatically corrects his aim in order not to fire to the moon at the end of his 4th shot, my puppet should too.

So i trust Wildfire6, when he says that trained pros can hit a 300m away target with a red dot no prob, because my own result in focusing and taking a picture by holding my camera with nothing keeping my elbows up are better than my supposed-pro puppet aiming his rifle with its butt solidly pushing his shoulder.

Besides, i cant really understand sway. When i get tired my aim doesnt sway, it trembles. :confused:

Well, while I can agree with some aspects of the abstracted gameplay topic (for example suppression) I do feel that in most other cases the player is required to act like a soldier. Otherwise the avatar might also be expected to duck when appropriate, or might be expected to hit targets at certain ranges. I feel that the management of a soldier's movements should be player-controlled. A soldier might be expected to aim correctly, but not if he were forced to run a long distance, or adopt a wrong stance.

That's not to say the swaying should not be tweaked, of course it should. I say that there should be sway in the first place, appropriate to recent activity, current activity, weapon, stance etc.

[maffa 29]

swaying is the disruption of movement, artificially introduced becfause of sake of something. The avatar can choose to duck or not duck, but i dont think he should sway if he can do without, and i think he could. Artificial hurdles, those i cannot stand (even because AI doesnt have this kind of problem, TBH, but this i off topic).

I forgot to put in the list of variables affecting aiming weapon precision/dispersion: this may be something worth digging up a bit, werent it the fact that we dont have ballistics and windage and so on.

[-Coulum- 35]

i am afraid we are mixing topics here. Aiming is the result of the management of different situations: eyesight, muscle voluntary movement, muscle involuntary movement, weapon balance, available weapon resting, ballistic/windage correction. Either we explicitly state which parameters we are including or excluding by this list or we are damned to misunderstanding.

I always assumed the puppet in uniform that i play in the game stands for a trained, combat ready professional with good standard skills by an Army point of view. Everything that puppet does, it does by Army standard. When he takes aim, he should use all the techniques enhancing his chances to hit, regarding arm positions, breath control, muscle tensing and so on. If an Army infantryman doesnt find hard to aim and shoot a target 300m far away with a holo sight, neither should i. If he does, i would like that his average dispersion would be replicated in my my own gaming experience by some mean. When he shoots several times, if he automatically corrects his aim in order not to fire to the moon at the end of his 4th shot, my puppet should too.

Hold breath = avatar doing all the things you mention: eyesight, muscle voluntary movement, muscle involuntary movement, weapon balance, available weapon resting - When you press that key your avatar is doing his very best to control all these things for the steadiest possible aim.

Just looking down the sights = avatar looks down the sights, not compensating for involuntary muscles movements, weapon balance, breathing etc. The avatar is not trying to steady his aim for a precise shot. He is just nonchalantly looking down the sights.

All the player has to do is tell the avatar when to steady his aim, choose where to aim, when to fire. The avatar does the rest.

[ardyvee 10]

Hold breath = avatar doing all the things you mention: eyesight, muscle voluntary movement, muscle involuntary movement, weapon balance, available weapon resting - When you press that key your avatar is doing his very best to control all these things for the steadiest possible aim.

Just looking down the sights = avatar looks down the sights, not compensating for involuntary muscles movements, weapon balance, breathing etc. The avatar is not trying to steady his aim for a precise shot. He is just nonchalantly looking down the sights.

All the player has to do is tell the avatar when to steady his aim, choose where to aim, when to fire. The avatar does the rest.

Question: when using a long weapon, isn't there a difference between acquiring your target (get it reasonably close to your sights) and actually wanting to shoot him (and thus getting your sights on mass center)? If there is, maybe what we need is another key (wee more keys) to simulate that difference in how much tensed are your muscles. Or maybe we don't, not sure.

We do certainly need bi-pods and resting, though.

[maffa 29]

Hold breath = avatar doing all the things you mention: eyesight, muscle voluntary movement, muscle involuntary movement, weapon balance, available weapon resting - When you press that key your avatar is doing his very best to control all these things for the steadiest possible aim.

Just looking down the sights = avatar looks down the sights, not compensating for involuntary muscles movements, weapon balance, breathing etc. The avatar is not trying to steady his aim for a precise shot. He is just nonchalantly looking down the sights.

All the player has to do is tell the avatar when to steady his aim, choose where to aim, when to fire. The avatar does the rest.

if it is like you are saying, then the sway under "Hold breath" is far too great. I have problems taking stationary targets closer than 300m with an ARCO. A target at 300m under ARCO is 1 cm tall, its head 2.5 mm, the shole figure is 5 mm wide. i should be able to safely aim at such a target holding my breath with a minimum to none sway.

[-Coulum- 35]

Question: when using a long weapon, isn't there a difference between acquiring your target (get it reasonably close to your sights) and actually wanting to shoot him (and thus getting your sights on mass center)? If there is, maybe what we need is another key (wee more keys) to simulate that difference in how much tensed are your muscles. Or maybe we don't, not sure.

Well first step is to acquire the target/ get sight picture. Then you go about lining up an accurate shot. I would say this is not really dependant on the length of the weapon but rather the optics you are using and the range to the target. As for another key, I think the hold breath does the job well no?

I like too think of hold breath as representing the soldier tensing up the muscles to steady the weapon, controlling breath (a shooter shouldn't just randomly hold breath that's not proper), getting into a better position to receive recoil etc. etc.

We do certainly need bi-pods and resting, though.

Yes indeed

[maffa 29]

A little adon on what i wrote.

When shooting in "hold breath" mode you have a sort of countdown because you are supposed to be in apnoea. Then when hose 10 secs or so run out, you start breathing heavily and the aim goes all over.

This is not how things work, as we saw.

First of all i dont think ten seconds are on par with athletic prowess required to a soldier, even more so if this skill is directly required to do his job.

Secondly, pro soldier dont need to hold their breath at all, they breath out in a very controlled way, and in any case never stop breathing.

So

1) there is no need for a different "casual glance" mode when looking inside a sight, magnified or not (and i cant see any need to look casually inside a non magnified sight);

2) there is no need to "hold your breath", and have a countdown so that when time runs out you are in need to gasp for air;

3) there is no need of such a big sway so that it would make you miss a stationary target at 300 on iron sights.

In terms of game balance, loss of situational awareness should be enough punishment for the gain of aim stability.

As i said, i dont like artificial hurdles.

[Hatchet_AS 201]

H

The thing if it were intuitive (ie. easier) would it not defeat the purpose. I really can't think of a system that would generate the same results but "feel more natural". It should be hard to shoot someone from 400 m standing. How are you going to keep that limitation while also making it feel easy? Eliminating sway when you move the mouse would make shooting at 400 m in any stance super easy. Pretty much the aiming ease of Quake with longer ranges and bullet drop.

I'm not sure why you are equating my statement about things not being intuitive as a desire to make things easier. That is about as from my perspective and general thought process with these things as it can get.

For what it's worth though, I do a fair amount of shooting (couple times a week) with an array of weaponry. I have no issues even in stress shoots hitting targets within 300 meters in any stance with an Aimpoint or iron sights for that matter, on any assault rifle. And have several brothers from the service and current activities that are capable of doing the same any day of the week. Thus things from my perspective don't seem to be true (intuitive).

I thought the suggestion that I was referencing above my post was to simply reduce the amount of sway a bit, while holding breath. You know, that thing you always do anyway if you have any clue how to shoot in the game. That suggestion as I stated seemed like a reasonable solution, as it would address reasonably the issue I have with the system. Which is simply that maintaining a sight picture seems unrealistic compared to what I know to be real world.

We do certainly need bi-pods and resting, though.

Weapon resting is available in a couple/few mods already. TMR and VTS come to mind. I'm about to release a set of bipods and other attachments (weekend at the latest), but unfortunately needing to replace a PSU in that box as of yesterday. Is coming though!

[-Coulum- 35]

if it is like you are saying, then the sway under "Hold breath" is far too great. I have problems taking stationary targets closer than 300m with an ARCO. A target at 300m under ARCO is 1 cm tall, its head 2.5 mm, the shole figure is 5 mm wide. i should be able to safely aim at such a target holding my breath with a minimum to none sway.

I agree! Hold breath could probably be even steadier, especially prone. But then it should also take a bit longer to reach this maximum steadiness. Right now it takes about half a second. Making it take a second but reach higher precision would be great in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 PM ----------

I thought the suggestion that I was referencing above my post was to simply reduce the amount of sway a bit, while holding breath. You know, that thing you always do anyway if you have any clue how to shoot in the game. That suggestion as I stated seemed like a reasonable solution, as it would address reasonably the issue I have with the system. Which is simply that maintaining a sight picture seems unrealistic compared to what I know to be real world.

That, I am not opposed to. Its just taking away sway whenever you move the mouse which I think is self defeating. I believe that was the original suggestion no?

For what it's worth though, I do a fair amount of shooting (couple times a week) with an array of weaponry. I have no issues even in stress shoots hitting targets within 300 meters in any stance with an Aimpoint or iron sights for that matter, on any assault rifle. And have several brothers from the service and current activities that are capable of doing the same any day of the week. Thus things from my perspective don't seem to be true.

So how would you implement things in game to reflect this. Because you can hit targets at 300m in any stance does that mean that there shouldn't be any more challenge to shooting standing vs. prone vs. a hypothetical bipod deployed.

I think one thing can be agreed upon though. Weapon sway while holding breath should be decreased.

[twisted 128]

Weapon sway is good. Maybe even a little low when lying down. One thing that'd be a cool addition is having more of the figure eight motion that is more natural to the path your weapon should take based on your breathing.

Going further we should have muscle fatigue and effects of adrenaline simulated. Morale and wounds as well if you really want to get into it.

Or keeping current implementation and adding engine level support and bipods would be so damn crucial as well, bis, please don't miss the trick here. It's a element that really enhances the experience.

[Hatchet_AS 201]

That, I am not opposed to. Its just taking away sway whenever you move the mouse which I think is self defeating. I believe that was the original suggestion no?

So how would you implement things in game to reflect this. Because you can hit targets at 300m in any stance does that mean that there shouldn't be any more challenge to shooting standing vs. prone vs. a hypothetical bipod deployed.

I think one thing can be agreed upon though. Weapon sway while holding breath should be decreased.

Arrr... made me go read again. You are correct, the original suggestion was beyond my scope of reasonable as well. Apparently my gear grinding took lead with that.

And I honestly wouldn't change much of anything with the current system. A little less sway in general fits my idea of real world a little better. Talking something like 10% reduction. Outside of that though, I've never made a suggestion on how to fix it because I understand most of the mechanics and it is complicated when trying to maintain realism/gameplay standards for the masses. Reducing sway under hold breath seems like a reasonable approach, as this would fix the sight picture issue while 'engaged'. But still require players to utilize the systems available to be efficient.

Outside of that, I don't really have any complaints. Less the lack of bipods, current silencer configs and the insanity with how that works and the affects they have on the topic at hand. But yeah, we're just fixing those ourselves. Which is not to say I think everything else seems realistic, rather what we have in game seems like a reasonable system, that is challenging as it should be. Just needs minor tweakage.

[maffa 29]

i dont think there should be any constructed challenge. Exchanging bullets is as challenging as it is. AI isnt affected by swaying whatsoever (among all the other things) and any advantages/disadvantages you can have, other players in a PvP mode will. No need to hold breath, no need for gasping for air, no need to get drunk trying to counterbalance a unreal sway on a 4x scope.

Take your cell phone, place it in front of your eyes, zoom it to a 4x, and see your sway on something away a few hundreds meter for a minute or so standing still: where's the sway? When you eventually get tired, you start to shake and tremble: thats no sway, and it happens after a minute or so. Okay rifles have recoil, but trained soldiers should not be that affected, and unless we are able to recreate accumulated stress on prolonged infights this is unconsequential anyway. Besides, cellphones are too light, rifles are balanced and have the butt that can be set to keep it more stable.

There is no need for swaying close-medium distances with modern well mantained and appropriately zeroed weaponry and sights, and there is no need to hold your breath and gasp for air because it is not the way you shoot. It's just a made up difficulty for balancing a situation that someone felt was unjust (which is not, if bullet drop and weapon ranges were really effective)

[-Coulum- 35]

A little adon on what i wrote.

When shooting in "hold breath" mode you have a sort of countdown because you are supposed to be in apnoea. Then when hose 10 secs or so run out, you start breathing heavily and the aim goes all over.

........

So

1) there is no need for a different "casual glance" mode when looking inside a sight, magnified or not (and i cant see any need to look casually inside a non magnified sight);

2) there is no need to "hold your breath", and have a countdown so that when time runs out you are in need to gasp for air;

3) there is no need of such a big sway so that it would make you miss a stationary target at 300 on iron sights.

In terms of game balance, loss of situational awareness should be enough punishment for the gain of aim stability.

As i said, i dont like artificial hurdles.

Mmm no. You don't see a marksman just plopping down to prone bringing up the sights and popping off a headshot in real life. Take a look at this:

Even for a trained soldier you need time and focus to get that precision. Notice how long this guy needs to get the proper position, eye alignment, breath control etc etc. And he has a bipod and is under ideal conditions Ie. not having bullets whipping around him. And he still misses. It takes time even for a trained soldier to get that steadiness. Sometimes situations don't require that amount of precision or don't allow for that amount of time or focus, so why would your avatar automatically do it every-time he looks through his sights?

And regarding the amount of time you hold breath - in real practice its not like in arma where you suffocate yourself to death (ha that's just stupid) and it is possible to maintain rythmic breath control as long as the shooter has focus to do so. But there are other things that limit the amount of time one can keep his weapon perfectly steady - Tensing to steady the weapon will eventually fatigue the muscles enough to loose fine muscle control. Of course its not long before your muscles recover.

I suggest:

• 
  
• keep sway as is for not holding breath (possibly a bit more on the prone).
  
• Remove all sway after holding breath for 3 seconds (It will take 3 seconds to go from "full sway" gradually down to "0 sway")
  
• You can hold breath for up to 10 seconds. (Less for Fatigued soldiers)
  
• Every time you shoot or jerk the weapon to quickly your hold breath ends.
  
• 
  

What d'ya think?

Argh you guys respond faster than I can type

[maffa 29]

ah, nope, you missed the part where i wrote "up until x4 magnifying, 500m distance". Up to these parameters you dont need to make anything special to aim. That marksman has what it looks like a SOS scope, and he could have his target from 800m to 1.5km away, and he is also affected by bullet drop and windage. So, yeah his job is tought.

But since we dont have this kind of problems (alas) and we are talking about closer distances, the one we could face with a MX or M14/M4/AK74 etc, we dont need a special mode to aim -that is the special ability to keep the aim on the pixel you want it to be. From 200 to 500m weapon barrel lenghts and caliber ranges have much more impact, so you may have a dispersion problem, but not the inability to keep the chevron still.

Do you want to put a semirealistic hurdle? Make it so that -when standing- your sway starts from zero and then slowly builds up as your muscles are starting to "ache" and you need to "relax" them again in every 40s - 1 min. But no one really keeps an immobile standing aiming stance for more than 20-30 seconds, this is just stupidly irrealistic.

Sway is a factor on long range shooting. That i agree.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Maffa
i changed all "to hit" in "to aim": the point here is not hitting, but keeping the aim steady

[-Coulum- 35]

Take your cell phone, place it in front of your eyes, zoom it to a 4x, and see your sway on something away a few hundreds meter for a minute or so standing still: where's the sway? When you eventually get tired, you start to shake and tremble: thats no sway, and it happens after a minute or so. Okay rifles have recoil, but trained soldiers should not be that affected, and unless we are able to recreate accumulated stress on prolonged infights this is unconsequential anyway. Besides, cellphones are too light, rifles are balanced and have the butt that can be set to keep it more stable.

No. Take something with real optical zoom and try to keep it pointed at something 400m away. Better yet get a really strong laser pointer and do the same. Have someone on the other end tell you how much that laser is jumping up and down. Holding it steady for a couple seconds will be easy enough but requires concentration, holding it steady forever... not gonna happen (while standing zero resting). I can only assume a trained shooter will do better but not that much better.

ah, nope, you missed the part where i wrote "up until x4 magnifying, 500m distance". Up to these parameters you dont need to make anything special to hit. That marksman has what it looks like a SOS scope, and he could have his target from 800m to 1.5km away, and he is also affected by byullet drop and windage. So, yeah his job is tought.

Judging by the silencer and rifle I don't think the target is any more than 800 m away. My guess is around 4-600. If he missed that while prone, with bipod after a good ten seconds of aiming how well do you think a guy standing under fire at 300m will do taking the shot immediately after looking down the sights? Even if he didn't miss I think its fair to say that there is some time and focused required for shooting - yes its scale up with distance - but it also scales up depending on stance. And shooting at 300m standing is going to require you to apply proper shooting techniques. You should just nonchalantly look down the sight and within seconds pop off headshots at 300m.

3-400 metres is still a mighty far distance. I would not expect people to wip out a gun and headshot a guy in an instant with that range.

There is definitely a realistic purpose to the sway and ability and limitations of hold breath.

Arrr... made me go read again. You are correct, the original suggestion was beyond my scope of reasonable as well. Apparently my gear grinding took lead with that.

No prob

Glad you're generally okay with the sway. My biggest gripe with the current system is that I find there isn't enough of a difference between just prone and "holding breath" while prone - maybe I'm alone on that though. Otherwise I agree it is pretty fine, +/_10%. Of course it will never be perfect. Bipods would go a long way to making it a more reasonable well balanced system though.

Edited October 15, 2013 by -Coulum-

[maffa 29]

No. Take something with real optical zoom and try to keep it pointed at something 400m away. Better yet get a really strong laser pointer and do the same. Have someone on the other end tell you how much that laser is jumping up and down. Holding it steady for a couple seconds will be easy enough but requires concentration, holding it steady forever... not gonna happen (while standing zero resting). I can only assume a trained shooter will do better but not that much better.

It doesnt really matter if the magnifying is optical or digital, as long as you can see ythe detail of what you are zooming. You cannot take something as light as a laster pen and keep it onthe head of someone as far as 20 meters, but give me something i can hold onto, like a sling and a rifle butt and that will be a completely different performance.

Judging by the silencer and rifle I don't think the target is any more than 800 m away. My guess is around 4-600. If he missed that while prone, with bipod after a good ten seconds of aiming how well do you think a guy standing under fire at 300m will do taking the shot immediately after looking down the sights? Even if he didn't miss I think its fair to say that there is some time and focused required for shooting yes it scale up with distance - but it also scales up depending on stance.

3-400 metres is still a mighty far distance. I would not expect people to wip out a gun and headshot a guy in an instant with that range.

There is definitely a realistic purpose to the sway and ability and limitations of hold breath.

again you are forgetting he neds to make calculation for windage, bullet drop and we dont really know if the target is standing still to attention in the middle of a desert road or if he is moving or inside a house peeking from a window. Since he has a suppressor he also have to make corrections for that, too. So i agree that his shot is complicated.

But again, no need to have sway for shots inside the marksman range. You think 500m is too far away, no prob, make it 300. I already make my own sway, because when i zoom in i dont know yet what i will see, and i need to search and then adjust to make the real aim. All these movements are what you would call "sways", semicircular movements and adjustments i do in order to lock on a target, moreso if the target is moving, so i have to make mental calculation to predict his position by the time the bullets gets there. But if these MXs and sights are guaranteed to hit a human body mass at 300m there is no need to make artificial awy to make it harder. You want to shoot while crouched prone in order not to give your enemy a bigger mass to shoot at, not because you are incapable to keep your tremblings at bay to hit a human 300m away with magnified optics.

[Make Love Not War 10]

The problem I have with the sway is the randomness which leads to massive frustration as the player is constantly "fighting" it without being able to predict how he'll have to adjust his mouse movements from one split second to the next. BIS, please, the sway needs to be properly simulated as a figure-8 pattern.

[twisted 128]

but then again we are talking about people that train to be professional soldiers, not pie eaters. This is normal.

You obviously have an elevated idea of soldiers capability. Very few are Sniper level. And in firefights where you don't have all the time in the world to aim calmly then a that accuracy and stability go out the window further. Hundreds to thousands ofbullets are fired in combat, most are suppressing. Few hit their mark.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?30316-Rounds-per-kill-in-Vietnam

http://askville.amazon.com/Ratio-small-arms-fire-actual-kill/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=9569358

If you want less sway then sit, crouch or go prone. You do know that ctrl + w or s keys further adjust your stance. Prone and sitting are tbe most stable. Plus magnification through any kind of sight can make the sway exaggerated.

[maffa 29]

Arma doesnt and i hope never will impose psychological aftereffects on player avatar. Suppression, morale breaks, people dying all around should never affect the player ability to do what he is technically able to do.

If you take away bullet drop, windage, psychology, weapon ranges, sight zeroing and caliber performances, there nothing remaining to prevent a stationary soldier to hit the point the aimpoint is laying for tens of seconds, even minutes, IMO.

[-Coulum- 35]

again you are forgetting

I am not forgeting I am assuming he already has because his spotter isn't communicating ranges and he isn't toucching his scope. You could be totally right about moving target small target etc. But the point I am trying to make is there is alot of concentration and time required to shoot accurately in that vid. In arma its just not like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqgFs7RwYvw

600 metre headshot with ease in little time. If there were no sway it would be even worse.

It doesnt really matter if the magnifying is optical or digital, as long as you can see ythe detail of what you are zooming. You cannot take something as light as a laster pen and keep it onthe head of someone as far as 20 meters, but give me something i can hold onto, like a sling and a rifle butt and that will be a completely different performance.

Just trust looking through an optical sight you can much more clearly see just how off you are than on 3 inch cell phone screen. At 300 mmetres on a cell phone screen a person would just be a blob of pixels - of course its going to look steady. I mean a real laser pointer. You can hold those like a rifle. Put a strap on it whatever. the sway is going to be apparent at 300-400 metres.

All these movements are what you would call "sways", semicircular movements and adjustments i do in order to lock on a target, moreso if the target is moving, so i have to make mental calculation to predict his position by the time the bullets gets there. But if these MXs and sights are guaranteed to hit a human body mass at 300m there is no need to make artificial awy to make it harder. You want to shoot while crouched prone in order not to give your enemy a bigger mass to shoot at, not because you are incapable to keep your tremblings at bay to hit a human 300m away with magnified optics.

All I can say is that moving a mouse to find your target doesn't even compare to keeping a rifle steady on a target at 300 while standing. Not saying that at 300m it isn't possible or even that hard, just that it takes far more concentration and time. I think holding breath, waiting half a second and moving the mouse is very leniant compared to what a soldier has to do in reality.

You obviously have an elevated idea of soldiers capability. Very few are Sniper level. And in firefights where you don't have all the time in the world to aim calmly then a that accuracy and stability go out the window further.

This

If you take away bullet drop, windage, psychology, weapon ranges, sight zeroing and caliber performances, there nothing remaining to prevent a stationary soldier to hit the point the aimpoint is laying for tens of seconds, even minutes, IMO.

What about physical ability and time given to line up the shot in the first place? Stance, weapon resting, bipod, shooting technique - none of those make a difference?

The problem I have with the sway is the randomness which leads to massive frustration as the player is constantly "fighting" it without being able to predict how he'll have to adjust his mouse movements from one split second to the next. BIS, please, the sway needs to be properly simulated as a figure-8 pattern.

Hold breath is your best friend. learn to use it right and its actually not that bad.

Edited October 15, 2013 by -Coulum-

[maffa 29]

If there were no sway it would be even worse.

uh... so what? why do you feel the urge to make something not that hard harder? AI is not affected by it, players will be equally affected for bad or worse, so the only point remaining is: once i see a target, once i bring the rifle to my eye and focus inside a magnified optics, once i re-find him inside my optic view, why on earth should i even be more challenged to hit my target than i already am? The urge to take him down before he takes me shold be plenty of a challenge to make me miss my shot, but if he is standing, and my weapon and bullet has it in range, why should sway make things more interesting?

I dont care if moving a mouse is easier than embracing a rifle and swinging it around. Even pressing the W key is easier than jogging under 35kg of equipment around a hostile place. So what? Do we want to change it in QWOP just for the sake of make it more realistic?

Weapon sway and breath holding are poor ways of simulating something that, missing all other factor, is next to a no brainer to a trained professional. Without bullet drop, proper caliber and weapon simulation, windage and weapon resting, aiming should be as easy as it is.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Maffa

[Hatchet_AS 201]

The problem I have with the sway is the randomness which leads to massive frustration as the player is constantly "fighting" it without being able to predict how he'll have to adjust his mouse movements from one split second to the next. BIS, please, the sway needs to be properly simulated as a figure-8 pattern.

I was going to bring this particular piece of things up early but I haven't had to time to look at the technical pieces in game to know whats what currently. Certainly feels like this is the case in game still.

The disconnect for me (on the random pattern) is simply, when I'm shooting a weapon in real life I have all the tactile feedback of actually holding the weapon and I know where my muscles are being strained because I feel it. And because of those inputs to the brain, I can willingly and accurately adjust accordingly. Whether that adjustment is simply choosing to relax for sec before the next shot, or pushing myself to maintain the current sight picture. Whatever the adjustment, I still have control of the weapon and instinctively know what muscles to engage to achieve whatever I'm after. Now whether or not I have the capacity to do such, is scenario dependent.

Considering there is no tactile feedback in game (obviously), it makes it hard for me accept a random pattern as reasonable. Although I gave up a couple years ago on the topic. The thought in the back of my head here is, if perhaps the pattern were not random, the current sway would be fine with no reduction. As it would be realistically possible to 'control' things, as you could fight the sway intelligently. The balance/challenge would be in how much mouse input is needed to maintain higher level of control (NOT a finite level of control). And of course fatigue, weapon weights, and whatnot would ideally affect that scaling of input.

Just thoughts. Still like the idea of reducing sway under hold breath. I also agree that sway in the prone position needs to be reduced (sorry missed that earlier).

Edited October 15, 2013 by Hatchet_AS

[-Coulum- 35]

uh... so what? why do you feel the urge to make something not that hard harder?

Because its realistic. And more importantly, because it produces realistic ingame results. Ie. less arcadey, more tactical.

But lets just say that we did it your way. Since shooting is a "no brainer" for soldiers that they can do with their eyes closed, lets remove all sway. Now I ask:

• what's the accuracy advantage to shooting in a lower stance?
  
• what's the accuracy advantage for resting ones weapon or bipod?
  
• Should ai accuracy be left ridiculously high since the players accuracy is also ridiculously high?
  
• Are firefights going to be more like reality or more like battlefield?
  

Sway is not some feature that makes the game harder for no reason. Its there to limit the player's abilities using a mouse an keyboard closer to that of a soldier's using his body and a rifle. Contrary to what you think, not all soldiers such good shots that they don't even have to focus to line up accurate shots. They have to take time to line up their shots too. And sometimes if they don't have that time, they miss too - for reasons other than wind, in-proper ranging/sighting, or lack of los to the target.

Finally, If you still think sway is unrealistic I pull the VBS card. Why does VBS, a military training tool, have weapon sway if its not realistic? It has more magnitude but a more predictable pattern - but never the less is weapon sway, with a similar hold breath feature. If weapon sway is unrealistic why would the militaries ask for it in their training tool/simulation?