Weapon Sway Tweaking

[maffa 29]

Because its realistic. And more importantly, because it produces realistic ingame results. Ie. less arcadey, more tactical.

It seems like you are contradicting yourself. Either is realistic (and i dont find it's realistic at all: when im tired i dont draw 8 shaped pattern, i tremble) or it serve the purpose as a catchall phenomenon that includes several features that should be in the game and that are not (yet?)

But lets just say that we did it your way. Since shooting is a "no brainer" for soldiers that they can do with their eyes closed, lets remove all sway. Now I ask:

• what's the accuracy advantage to shooting in a lower stance?
  
• what's the accuracy advantage for resting ones weapon or bipod?
  
• Should ai accuracy be left ridiculously high since the players accuracy is also ridiculously high?
  
• Are firefights going to be more like reality or more like battlefield?
  

* up to 300m no real advantage, you just dont offer much body to be shot to the enemy.

* controlling recoil sway and or sway for longer shots

* uh, depending on difficulty settings? that should be a purposedly made choice, but we're off topic here. AIs dont sway.

* when windage bullet drop etc will be in, yes it will be more realistic. By that time, i prefer having at least ONE thing right and set, instead of all wrongs.

Sway is not some feature that makes the game harder for no reason. Its there to limit the player's abilities using a mouse an keyboard closer to that of a soldier's using his body and a rifle. Contrary to what you think, not all soldiers such good shots that they don't even have to focus to line up accurate shots. They have to take time to line up their shots too. And sometimes if they don't have that time, they miss too - for reasons other than wind, in-proper ranging/sighting, or lack of los to the target.

thats what i do when i pop up the sight view and alling myself to take a shot. I am not an aimbot, i still need at least a second to make the quickest shot when passing from wide view to sight view, and when those real life factors im bored to write every time will be implemented it will take even more.

Finally, If you still think sway is unrealistic I pull the VBS card. Why does VBS, a military training tool, have weapon sway if its not realistic? It has more magnitude but a more predictable pattern - but never the less is weapon sway, with a similar hold breath feature. If weapon sway is unrealistic why would the militaries ask for it in their training tool/simulation?

Duh? Not my problem? And besides, i dont think their contractors need Arma to learn how to aim, right? And i dont even think "the militaries asked them the sway"...

Listen, i understand that for sake of semplicity you prefer that there would be sway, because sway is in to cover up for all those real life factors: so instead of calculating with bullet drop windage etc. you fight with a wild parkinson. THIS is gamey. It does a very poor job covering for them. I want them. A2 ACE had them, and so several free to play titles from 6-7 years ago have so i dont need sway as soon as i pop up the sight view.

You want to introduce sway for shorter ranges? Put in fatigue: the more fatigued/wounded you are, the more difficult the shot will be. Also, the longer you stay still in position, the more fatigue you will build up and the more sway you will experience. But not after 5 seconds. After 30-40s.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Maffa
oh gawd so many mispells so little time

[dmarkwick 261]

I think in general this thread shows an exaggerated view on their, and soldiers', abilities to shoot accurately under differing conditions. It might seem simple, but the reality is very, very different. Shooting from standing is always terrible, and only ever gets worse when you have recently exerted yourself. The sway as implemented ingame is certainly annoying from a gaming point of view, but as mentioned before it gives a reality-based impetus to act differently. The sway is exaggerated IMO not for "reality", but because the trembling reality is more difficult to convey on machines that are maybe already struggling.

On the whole, although I sometimes get frustrated (gamplaywise) by the sway, I know that it's affecting my actions to produce a more authentic activity. I need to think more about how, how far, and how fast I need to move and retain some amount of effectiveness.

[maffa 29]

@DMarkwick Unless we had general fatigue to the player (that the longer he plays/fights, the longer he wears out, which may actually be an interesting idea) this mental fatigue is a no factor in aiming.

Since no overall fatigue/psychological effect/real world physics is involved (yet) the situation is like a shooting range standing position shoot from the POV of a professional soldier who has 5000 bullets fired from that rifle. What is the limit distance where he is likely to hit the body mass of his target taking a brief aim? This is the only question you need to solve. Using sway to compensate all the things that are lacking is a gamey solution.

All the testimonals by people that actually had some shooting experience say that 300m is no problem. Even though they are a few compared to all the other i believe them the most rather than the armchair warriors (including me) used to fight with sway since Call of Duty the first and some. Sway is a gamey solution, no doubt about that. This also means that sway as a way of making shooting more challenging is something gamers are accustomized to, maybe they even expect it to be there lest something terrible will happen (what? dont know).

All in all, however, i dont think we are that far from each other positions. In standing position with an ARCO sight, i see that there is a sway from the centre of my aim of lets say the 8 mark in the mildot reticle. This makes targeting a 300m still standing target challenging. I would expect no more sway than past the 4 mark in mildot.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n223/maffaxxx/arma32013-10-1712-53-32-34_zpsd90bbdea.jpg (116 kB)

In the pic above Red circle is the actual average of sway radius, but there are some off peaks that can go as low as the concrete down the image or go all over one side. I would like the sway stay inside the green circle. Without optics, with a red dot or iron sight that shot would be hard anyway and you should take your sweet time to aim precisely, sway or not sway.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Maffa

[dmarkwick 261]

@Maffa. I have never mentioned mental fatigue, I only talk about physical fatigue.

Sway is a gamey solution, to a gamey problem. Most people will claim not to have trouble shooting at 300m, but IMO they're exaggerating their abilities. I have done this IRL, and physical tiredness & immediate muscle responses to exertion do have a real effect. Is it sway? Not quite, it's more like a fast smaller sway, like a tremble almost. To expect to fire accurately in all stances at 300m is asking too much IRL.

My only ask is that AI have similar disabilities :)

[mr_centipede 31]

I thought the AI always affected by the sway, given by the command:

_unit setSkill ["[b]aimingShake[/b]", _value];

Isn't this it? or is it not?

[-Coulum- 35]

In standing position with an ARCO sight, i see that there is a sway from the centre of my aim of lets say the 8 mark in the mildot reticle. This makes targeting a 300m still standing target challenging. I would expect no more sway than past the 4 mark in mildot.

And look when you hold your breath their is almost no sway. Now you can shoot the target at 300m like a soldier can. Sway isn't limiting your ability to accurately engage an enemy at 300m. Its just limiting the speed an concentration required to do it. Im not saying soldiers can't hit something reliably at 300m standing. I am saying it isn't as easy as or quick as moving a mouse. thus, yes, gamey workarounds - but then again not so gamey - because everyone does twitch and sway to an extent. even just standing straight you are swaying back and forth. Even breathing is going to cause you move a bit. So although it may be exaggerated for gamey purposes but its based on reality.

You can't just judge the sway alone, you need to remember you do have the ability to easily counter it.

Duh? Not my problem? And besides, i dont think their contractors need Arma to learn how to aim, right? And i dont even think "the militaries asked them the sway"...

I don't see that as a reason. Militaries that use VBS request features in the game. Take a guess why they wanted sway.

All the testimonals by people that actually had some shooting experience say that 300m is no problem.

What does no problem mean though? does it mean they don't even have to try to focus while shooting at 300m? Or does it mean that they can reliably hit at 300m. there is a difference. You seem not to care

I dont care if moving a mouse is easier than embracing a rifle and swinging it around.

But it does matter and it does have an effect on the game. Holding a weapon steady while standing for an infinite amount of time while standing just isn't realistic. I mean seriously man, just think about it - we are not machines, our muscles naturally tremble and twitch. We can, to a degree, compensate for that for a limited amount of time. And that is why we have sway and hold breath!

I thought the AI always affected by the sway, given by the command:

_unit setSkill ["[b]aimingShake[/b]", _value];

Isn't this it? or is it not?

Yeah that will do the trick though its not really sway. You basically are just adding dispersion to the ai fire. So they will not even try to compensate for sway like a human does if he has the time, they just fire inaccurately.

[maffa 29]

And look when you hold your breath their is almost no sway. Now you can shoot the target at 300m like a soldier can. Sway isn't limiting your ability to accurately engage an enemy at 300m. Its just limiting the speed an concentration required to do it. Im not saying soldiers can't hit something reliably at 300m standing. I am saying it isn't as easy as or quick as moving a mouse. thus, yes, gamey workarounds - but then again not so gamey - because everyone does twitch and sway to an extent. even just standing straight you are swaying back and forth. Even breathing is going to cause you move a bit. So although it may be exaggerated for gamey purposes but its based on reality.

You can't just judge the sway alone, you need to remember you do have the ability to easily counter it.

Look, i think even if we are moving from opposites, we are really closer than you think. My POV is that "hold your breath to keep sway at bay" is working in the exact way round, because from the moment you are in sight view mode are already tensing and preparing to take that shot, i.e. "holding your breath" mode. We both agree that it is not literally "stay in apnoea" and if you keep it up for some time you wont die suffocated, but you become a little sore and weary. It's a more general physical state you are in. I say: you are in that state since you put your eye on the sight, because you are ready to fire, unless you walk around or voluntarily sway your mouse around looking for targets. [edit] and i say you can stay in this state for say 30 seconds, then you build up muscular fatigue and have either to fight sway or change position in order to loosen some stiffness from your body.

I don't see that as a reason. Militaries that use VBS request features in the game. Take a guess why they wanted sway.

Again i dont see it is pertinent, and again i doubt they asked for sway. Please dont bring it up again.

What does no problem mean though? does it mean they don't even have to try to focus while shooting at 300m? Or does it mean that they can reliably hit at 300m. there is a difference. You seem not to care

Once they put their eyes to the sight they are already physically ready to steady their aim, focus and fire. I know many use sight as binoculars thats not what they are meant primarily for.

But it does matter and it does have an effect on the game. Holding a weapon steady while standing for an infinite amount of time while standing just isn't realistic. I mean seriously man, just think about it - we are not machines, our muscles naturally tremble and twitch. We can, to a degree, compensate for that for a limited amount of time. And that is why we have sway and hold breath!

Havent you read what i wrote have you? I dont blame you, you look quite frustrated and may jump some lines: here you go again:

You want to introduce sway for shorter ranges? Put in fatigue: the more fatigued/wounded you are, the more difficult the shot will be. Also, the longer you stay still in position, the more fatigue you will build up and the more sway you will experience. But not after 5 seconds. After 30-40s.

We may have all those symptoms that we may reproduce as "sway" but not from the very moment we bring up the scope, c'mon.

---------- Post added at 16:11 ---------- Previous post was at 15:57 ----------

@Maffa. I have never mentioned mental fatigue, I only talk about physical fatigue.

Sway is a gamey solution, to a gamey problem. Most people will claim not to have trouble shooting at 300m, but IMO they're exaggerating their abilities. I have done this IRL, and physical tiredness & immediate muscle responses to exertion do have a real effect. Is it sway? Not quite, it's more like a fast smaller sway, like a tremble almost. To expect to fire accurately in all stances at 300m is asking too much IRL.

My only ask is that AI have similar disabilities :)

yes i know you were, thats why i mentioned "general fatigue buildup" (the longer you play/run/shoot the more fatigued you are) as a possible counter to the "always fit always ready" state avatars almost are. But this state is not "in game" as well as physchological stress and all the other physics variables, so...

Edited October 17, 2013 by Maffa

[-Coulum- 35]

I say: you are in that state since you put your eye on the sight, because you are ready to fire, unless you walk around or voluntarily sway your mouse around looking for targets. [edit] and i say you can stay in this state for say 30 seconds, then you build up muscular fatigue and have either to fight sway or change position in order to loosen some stiffness from your body.

Where as I say that just because you raise sights to your eye doesn't mean that you are immediately ready to pop off accurate headshots even at 300m. There is still more time needed to get all those things required for precise shooting in order.

Regarding time till fatigue, I think 30 seconds is long. Basically holding something that steady requires alot of focus and it doesn't take long to loose that focus and muscular control. I really can't prove this to you but trust me holding something on target for extended pariods of time is not easy. I know when I shoot I just steady for that brief moment before I fire and then I relax. I am no soldier, but there must be a reason that soldier are taught to rest their weapons or lower stance even at 300m.

In addition I think firing is going to totally mess up that focus and steadiness you had, forcing you to restart the whole process.

Again i dont see it is pertinent, and again i doubt they asked for sway. Please dont bring it up again.

Well I'll have to agree to disagree there but I'll drop it.

Once they put their eyes to the sight they are already physically ready to steady their aim, focus and fire. I know many use sight as binoculars thats not what they are meant primarily for.

But very often they aren't used for just making precise shots.ie. like you say using them as a bino, first aqcuiring the target in the sight, or even just firing with little need for precision (cqb or general area fire). There is no need to have machinelike steadiness at all times of the day. And importantly it is not possible to have machine like steadiness at all times of the day. Thus I like the two states we have now - one where are avatar is relaxed (norm) and one where our avatar is really trying for maximum accuracy (hold breath).

Havent you read what i wrote have you? I dont blame you, you look quite frustrated and may jump some lines: here you go again:

I have read what you say and I hope I don't come across as upset. I only bold lines because many times people don't read all that I say (don't blame em lol no matter how hard I try my posts ramble) so the bold is kind of like the "important points". Concerning fatigue, yeah sure we can both agree that sway is acceptable whenn tired. But you don't need to be tired to have slight muscle imprecisions. Like I said we are not robots while standing, even when not tired.

We may have all those symptoms that we may reproduce as "sway" but not from the very moment we bring up the scope, c'mon.

But there is nothing forcing you to not hold breath when you intitial bring up the sights. The sway that you must suffer through during the time it takes to prep hold breath doesn't represent fatigue, but rather your soldier getting his focus in order and steadying his weapon. Its not an instantaneous process.

Just so I am on the same page basically what we disagree upon is:

• Length it takes to hold breath and become steady (You think instantaneous I think at least half a second to 3 seconds)
  
• Length one can hold breath for (You think for 30 seconds (Ie. long enough it isn't necessary to have sway) I think for 5 to 10 seconds + ends after taking a shot)
  
• 
  

Am I correct?

[maffa 29]

Where as I say that just because you raise sights to your eye doesn't mean that you are immediately ready to pop off accurate headshots even at 300m. There is still more time needed to get all those things required for precise shooting in order.

Regarding time till fatigue, I think 30 seconds is long. Basically holding something that steady requires alot of focus and it doesn't take long to loose that focus and muscular control. I really can't prove this to you but trust me holding something on target for extended pariods of time is not easy. I know when I shoot I just steady for that brief moment before I fire and then I relax. I am no soldier, but there must be a reason that soldier are taught to rest their weapons or lower stance even at 300m.

In addition I think firing is going to totally mess up that focus and steadiness you had, forcing you to restart the whole process.

I understand what you are saying, but if we braket the single [take aim] phase i dont think we need to split the action in two parts and assign a key to the tense/relax action. This is a rifleman, this is what it does in a battle, as much as managing left foot right foot on a jog. This sway/control breath stuff is like imposing a QWOP routine on the jog phase. About the reset after shooting, i think much of the attention comes to recognizing the target: once you lock on it with your attention you dont lose focus on it and you keep the tense/relax routine, even tough the weapon may jerk for recoil (so the gun/sight may go around but the sight area shouldnt leave the target, it may move out to the periphery tho).

But very often they aren't used for just making precise shots.ie. like you say using them as a bino, first aqcuiring the target in the sight, or even just firing with little need for precision (cqb or general area fire). There is no need to have machinelike steadiness at all times of the day. And importantly it is not possible to have machine like steadiness at all times of the day. Thus I like the two states we have now - one where are avatar is relaxed (norm) and one where our avatar is really trying for maximum accuracy (hold breath).

But where's the harm? You are using your sight to scan the horizon, the game treats you as if you were tensing ready to shoot but no harm is coming, no penalty whatsoever (and besides i "hold breath" a lot when scanning without a sight, because it comes with the zoom feature that for some reason chokes you, but i digress) so why dont we have three states: weapon down (C toggle "down")/weapon ready (C "up")/sharpshoot mode (RMB/sight view), instead of four as it is now?

I have read what you say and I hope I don't come across as upset. I only bold lines because many times people don't read all that I say (don't blame em lol no matter how hard I try my posts ramble) so the bold is kind of like the "important points".

no prob mate :)

Concerning fatigue, yeah sure we can both agree that sway is acceptable whenn tired. But you don't need to be tired to have slight muscle imprecisions. Like I said we are not robots while standing, even when not tired.

But there is nothing forcing you to not hold breath when you intitial bring up the sights. The sway that you must suffer through during the time it takes to prep hold breath doesn't represent fatigue, but rather your soldier getting his focus in order and steadying his weapon. Its not an instantaneous process.

My point is that i already use some second to take my bearing myself when i pass from first person view to sight view: those are precious moments, i dont RMB and shoot the very moment after.

Just so I am on the same page basically what we disagree upon is:

• Length it takes to hold breath and become steady (You think instantaneous I think at least half a second to 3 seconds)
  
• Length one can hold breath for (You think for 30 seconds (Ie. long enough it isn't necessary to have sway) I think for 5 to 10 seconds + ends after taking a shot)
  
• 
  

Am I correct?

I think we disagree on the process altogether: your process starts relaxed and then it will tense when RMB is held, to relax again when either time runs out or you leave RMB. I think you want to lenghten the time, reduce the post effects and also slightly reduce the sway when RMB is pressed. My process starts as tensed, with roughly the sway we have now when RMB is pressed, and it gets worse over time, lets say that after 20 seconds up you start swaying more and more to get to the point as is it now in "relaxed mode", which will not be available in my mode, until you go out from sight view to first person again. It's totally the way round.

i think there are 3 major plus in my way:

• it's ready for when bullet drop, calibers, weapon statistics like range dispersion etc and windage will come around;
  
• you wont get drunk when scanning thru your scopes;
  
• you wont get useless sway thru CQC sights that you are not supposed to scan thru with, since they are not magnified, and yet you can take some (not all) good instinctive medium ranged shots with them;
  
• it simplifies stances, which are pretty complex to manage as they are (i discovered the "lower than prone" stance just this monday, still wondering what it is for).
  
• you still have to focus on targets in order to aim to them, but it is YOUR own skill and focus on the job, without any random hindarance: as i repeatedly said, i still need more than a moment to get my bearings on targets, and when windage gravity and dispersion will have a play on Arma pointing and clicking will not even be enough.

edit: hold on though: dont think i dont know my idea has a single chance of getting done. Sway is such ingrained in FPS that will never be ruled out. People on PvPs will feel threatened by aimbots and such so im duscssing for the sake of it.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Maffa

[-Coulum- 35]

I understand what you are saying, but if we braket the single [take aim] phase i dont think we need to split the action in two parts and assign a key to the tense/relax action. This is a rifleman, this is what it does in a battle, as much as managing left foot right foot on a jog. This sway/control breath stuff is like imposing a QWOP routine on the jog phase. About the reset after shooting, i think much of the attention comes to recognizing the target: once you lock on it with your attention you dont lose focus on it and you keep the tense/relax routine, even tough the weapon may jerk for recoil (so the gun/sight may go around but the sight area shouldnt leave the target, it may move out to the periphery tho).

I think you overestimate just how easy it is for a rifleman to shoot. We are not making the player do QWOP stuff (had to look that one up) like press ctrl c to establish a cheek weld, press i to inhale and e to exhale, tap t and f repeatedly to tense. Those are things that any good shooter can perform routinely. All we ask is for the player to specify when to do all these things - because that is not routinely done, that is totally situational. I really don't think that's asking too much and it isn't at all harder for us to do than it is for an experienced infantryman to prep for a shot. (btw definitely map hold breath and zoom to different keys)

Why not assume the avatar is not always "tensed" and steadying to the maximum ability? Well there's what I 've already mentioned (loss of fine muscle control, time, necessity of steady aim etc.). But also, in short, because soldiers just don't do it every-time they look down their sight:

Lets

. Do you think that at any given time a soldier who looks down the sights is also putting all his effort into steadying his weapon? In the vids many of them are looking down the sights (you can tell by the camera tilting) to see where they are shooting. But do you think that they are all steadying their weapon to the best of their ability everytime they do so? feel free to disagree and provide a counter argument, but I say no. So why would we now assume that in arma at any given time your character is doing exactly that. By doing this you are drastically changing how an arma firelight plays out in comparison to a real one.

But where's the harm? You are using your sight to scan the horizon, the game treats you as if you were tensing ready to shoot but no harm is coming, no penalty whatsoever (and besides i "hold breath" a lot when scanning without a sight, because it comes with the zoom feature that for some reason chokes you, but i digress) so why dont we have three states: weapon down (C toggle "down")/weapon ready (C "up")/sharpshoot mode (RMB/sight view), instead of four as it is now?

because overusing those fine muscle control will make your movements more imprecise. Don't waste effort if you don't need it. On top of that sometimes its just not practical sometimes to take the time to do practice all this proper steadying techniques.

My point is that i already use some second to take my bearing myself when i pass from first person view to sight view: those are precious moments, i dont RMB and shoot the very moment after.

Due to the large scale nature of arma, yes in most instances its still going to take a while to find and hit your target. But in other instances It would be very possible to point where you know the enemy is, scope in, adjust a mm and blam, headshot (if there were no sway). It reminds me of cod quick scoping. The sway means that no matter what, you will have to at least take half a second to steady and aim before popping someone, which is totally reasonable - aiming precisely takes time even 2-300 metres. And if it truly takes you moments to find and shoot your target any how... then you can press hold breath immediately and by the time you find him - your ready to shoot.

I think we disagree on the process altogether: your process starts relaxed and then it will tense when RMB is held, to relax again when either time runs out or you leave RMB. I think you want to lenghten the time, reduce the post effects and also slightly reduce the sway when RMB is pressed. My process starts as tensed, with roughly the sway we have now when RMB is pressed, and it gets worse over t....

...

.... YOUR own skill and focus on the job, without any random hindarance: as i repeatedly said, i still need more than a moment to get my bearings on targets, and when windage gravity and dispersion will have a play on Arma pointing and clicking will not even be enough.

Well we just disagree straight out on the times. I think steady for 5-10 seconds max you think half a minute. I think second or to two become steady, you think instantaneous. But otherwise, yes we just both suggest different approaches to handling steady vs relaxed. Yours is automatic, mine is manual. The advantage to mine is that you get to choose exactly when you want to use steady so you are more efficient. I will compare it to running ingame:

We could assume that everyone who runs, sprints and then have casual jog only when you are too tired to sprint - equivelant to your method.

Or we could have it as it is now where you choose when and when not to sprint. Yes you have to press one more button but it allows for better management: a good player will be able to take advantage of it, a bad player will not - and it is still not playing QWOP.

edit: hold on though: dont think i dont know my idea has a single chance of getting done. Sway is such ingrained in FPS that will never be ruled out. People on PvPs will feel threatened by aimbots and such so im duscssing for the sake of it.

Oh yeah good to hear because I am coming from the same place. I know 99% of the stuff that I blabber on about on here won't even be considered and I'm cool with that. I just like to dream:) Even the sway introduced in arma 3, doubt it had much to do with my whining.