Weapon Sway Tweaking

[Anachoretes 10]

Dont forget that sway is not only mechanical issue but optical too. Bigger zoom - bigger swaying. But I still can't say that the effect is too high for standing positions. And yes - this sway just kiiled by Hold Breath, what mean not just breathing but also increased tension in the joints\bundles - full precision shooting technique. Thats why it called presicion. You want too shoot without any technics? Strange for ArmA discussions.

---------- Post added at 07:23 ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 ----------

not more realistic but less fun.

Any extreme position is not good. It's not clear why people asking for weapons resting if they want to reduce recoil and sway almost completely without any cost?

[drill 1]

I'm totally agreed with the thread author. On my opinion, the weapon sway should even be increased, and definitaly not decreased. Otherwise we get again extremely fast and precise firing from (almost) any weapons on unrealistic ranges (>500 m), as it was, for example, in vanilla Arma2 and Iron front. That situation made many weapon types and tactics pointless in the games, and there weren't proper (realistic) firefights ever. There were too much camping and one-shot hits even from low-range IRL rifles.

[Anachoretes 10]

any weapons on unrealistic ranges

I think it needs to be fixed in ballistics. All participants in the process of shooting must be configured properly. Improving only one aspect not so correct decision.

[chortles 263]

Hmm... where as I can't even fathom how prone is hard at all. At 700 metres with a 12x yes of course then things are hectic but they should be. But at 300m are you serious that you can't reliably and quickly hit? I don't even consider my self much of a gamer outside of arma - are you telling me you can't do what I did in the vid in prone at 500m without holding breath or taking more than a few seconds?

I can't even see a man-sized target at 200 meters!

Testing with a BLUFOR Rifleman whose ACO I swapped for an ARCO and added a Rangefinder, at 200 meters I can't even see a 1.8 m stationary man-sized target on my screen without zooming, and even then it's an indistinct maybe-I'm-seeing-things shape; only with the ARCO's magnified optic can I actually see the man-sized target.

When standing, sight sway is so much that I cannot even do a rangefinding with either the optic reticle (with RCO/ARCO/MRCO using the "shoulder width" method) or even the rangefinder since the point-of-aim ends up being "all over the place" (usually not on the target), and when crouching I basically have to "fight the controls" in order to get a reading with the rangefinder -- and I still can't attempt an "optic reticle rangefinding".

At this time right now prone is literally the only stance from which sway is small enough that I can really attempt either of the above (much less any degree of reliability on the rangefinding) without holding breath, and then holding breath I find "the only way to be sure".

I absolutely do not agree with Drill's finding; at 200 meters I'm already screwed without holding breath per aiming, much less "per shot".

[-Coulum- 35]

Ah reinforcements have arrived for my side, thank god:)

Testing with a BLUFOR Rifleman whose ACO I swapped for an ARCO and added a Rangefinder, at 200 meters I can't even see a 1.8 m stationary man-sized target on my screen without zooming, and even then it's an indistinct maybe-I'm-seeing-things shape; only with the ARCO's magnified optic can I actually see the man-sized target.

Grr! you being a bit stubborn. I am assuming you are using the 4x (or whatevr magnification it is). I too can't see targets past 200 metres when eyeballing it because my computer sucks and resolution messes with LODs appearing. But when you use the 4x you can see a target at 300m. Can you not hit that target without holding your breath within a few seconds. The sway is only

. I just can't imagine its as hard as you make it out to be...

I recorded a video of what the sway is like in the three basic stances without touching my mouse, except for once at the end when I had to fix the sight for prone. It should be uploaded eventually.

here it is, the full quality vid would have taken hours to upload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpn1O...ature=youtu.be

Good video - I love when vids used to illustrate one's point because there is very little room for miscommunication. Anyhow. First off what range are those guys away? 200-300m?

Remember that the game expects a certain amount of user input. It does no aim for you and expects you to keep your sight relatively aligned with the target (and this is relatively small amount of work considering you don't have align the sights in the first place). So when you post a video of you letting the sway do its thing, the real life equivalent is you not actually aiming. If you have something resembling a weapon at home aim down it at a small target. Look up from the sights and breath normally for a few seconds. Do you think your still pointing at exactly the same spot you were pointing at before? I bet not. This is essentially what you are doing in the above videos except you don't take your eye of the sight.

TLDR: letting the weapon sway is like not actually practicing good weapon control in real life. When you aim in reality you are constantly adjusting to compensate for breathing and your bodies involuntary movements. The game expects you to do the same thing through moving the mouse back on target and breath control. expecting the gun to stay on target when you are not moving the mouse is like expecting someone who is not trying to aim or practice proper marksmanship to still holding his gun perfectly on target.

The holo/red dot sights/irons have a lot less sway. In my opinion the sway for magnified optics is pretty ridiculous. I don't think this is one of those issues that just comes down to "lol get better noob". I think that even though it's still possible to play the game with the sway and recoil and AI the way they are, doesn't mean that they couldn't use some tweaking. I don't mind scope sway, but in my opinion it doesn't look realistic and it needs tweaking unless BI implements weapon resting or some other alternative.

The holo red dot has exactly the same sway as the magnified. I am dead serious. Its just with the red dot you are unable to see just how imprecise your shooting really is. Same goes for real life. I use ironsights and shoot at far range I always think I am on target and then miss. Then I shoot with optics and realize why I was missing so damn much. I was not able to see just how inaccurate I was with just the naked eye. This is why I think there are alot misconception here about just how much your weapon sways in reality. People pick up their airsoft rifle or something, look down the sights while aiming at something, see that the sway doesn't appear to be that bad, and then compare that to the sway on a 4x at 400m. With just ironsights you just aren't able to recognize the slight movements that would throw off a 400m shot.

Also assume you are only playing pvp. Because the ai is currently very off balance - and features like weapon sway shouldn't be effected by how crazily unbalanced the ai's abilities are but rather the other way around.

Edit. What'd be great if sway can also reflect weight/size of the gun. So bigger ones sway more.

Very good suggestion. It would be neat if sway was also dependent on the balance of the weapon as well, and each weapon had a slightly different sway pattern giving them a different "feel".

I'm totally agreed with the thread author. On my opinion, the weapon sway should even be increased, and definitaly not decreased. Otherwise we get again extremely fast and precise firing from (almost) any weapons on unrealistic ranges (>500 m), as it was, for example, in vanilla Arma2 and Iron front. That situation made many weapon types and tactics pointless in the games, and there weren't proper (realistic) firefights ever. There were too much camping and one-shot hits even from low-range IRL rifles.

Thanks. Although I don't think there is a need to increase standing or crouched sway (I wouldn't be adversed to it though) I agree with all your other points.

Dont forget that sway is not only mechanical issue but optical too. Bigger zoom - bigger swaying.

Well not technically, but I know what you mean - The optics don't only magnify your target, they also magnify your errors. What one may think is steady and on target without them one will often find isn't when using magnification. But optics don't make you sway more. They just let you see it better.

@all those against weapon sway or more specifically more weapon sway while prone - do you think its realistic to be able to hits targets at 500m(make sure to fully comprehend just how far that truly is) with the same lack of concentration and speed that

in my OP? Do you think you could do the same in real life?

Remember real life firefight can last hours at only 100-200 metres...

PS. Sorry ofr my you tube links - I try to copy the url at a specific time but for some reason it doesn't seem to work.

[chortles 263]

Grr! you being a bit stubborn. I am assuming you are using the 4x (or whatevr magnification it is). I too can't see targets past 200 metres when eyeballing it because my computer sucks and resolution messes with LODs appearing. But when you use the 4x you can see a target at 300m. Can you not hit that target without holding your breath within a few seconds. The sway is only

. I just can't imagine its as hard as you make it out to be...

... well, yeah, I gave it a shot after reading your reply so it was indeed as hard as I made it out to be, that's what my reply back was based on! :p

The amount of sway in that video is so much that I wouldn't even attempt a shot, so no, without holding breath hitting a target ain't happening for me, much less "within a few seconds".

[down8 30]

I can't even see

I absolutely do not agree with Drill's finding; at 200 meters I'm already screwed without holding breath per aiming, much less "per shot".

Very true. The sway is overdone and annoying not only to shot but to aim.

---------- Post added at 13:52 ---------- Previous post was at 13:46 ----------

Remember real life firefight can last hours at only 100-200 metres...

[/size]

And that is very boring at a game.

I don't want Arma 3 to be a COD or BF3, but some completely realistic aspects don't improve immersion or fun. The game can have a unique slow pace and be fun without having realistic and boring firefights that last too long.

Things that improve immersion, gameplay, realism and fun are for example wind and weapon resting. One adds difficulty and the other easiness when applied properly.

[Anachoretes 10]

The game can have a unique slow pace and be fun without having realistic and boring firefights that last too long.

Yes, and it's probably another game. :)

Swaying, when a soldier is calm and rested, must be minimized. And bipods must work.

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:22 ----------

they also magnify your errors

Exactly. If you sway on 0.3 degree, optics increase it. 4x for me the best solution.

But optics don't make you sway more

Just from elbow - weight increased.

[Masharra 10]

I don't want Arma 3 to be a COD or BF3, but some completely realistic aspects don't improve immersion or fun. The game can have a unique slow pace and be fun without having realistic and boring firefights that last too long.

Boring firefights that last too long? Sounds like you could probably respawn.

Elongated firefights are a long term psychological test of wills. Between ammunition shortages, failed maneuvers, split up squads, IMMENSE psychological pressure on the squad leader to plan movements, react to enemy movements, sitreps, keeping his soldiers alive, and keeping himself alive I dont know what kind fun is missing. Barring your medic getting killed and being forced to watch 2 men slowly bleed to death. Shit wrong game arma 3 xD

Unless you only like your fun like quake. Run to bad guy, be surprised, shoot at bad guy, bad guy shoots at you. Some one dies game over. Respawn? In the space of 5 minutes. I get the adrenalin from that but thats like only eating cheeseburgers whilst the chef has made a lovely steak.

It also ruins the premise of fire superiority and suppression. There isnt much need when you can hit everything so darn easily. People seem to conveniently forget how much ammo is taken and expended firefights. Typical arma firefight 7mags on person 5mags in pack. End mission 5mags on person 5 mags in pack.

Unfortunately most of the popular game modes there arent many reasons to truly care about your life or the men around you.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Masharra

[ghostnineone 10]

Good video - I love when vids used to illustrate one's point because there is very little room for miscommunication. Anyhow. First off what range are those guys away? 200-300m?

200m

TLDR: letting the weapon sway is like not actually practicing good weapon control in real life. When you aim in reality you are constantly adjusting to compensate for breathing and your bodies involuntary movements. The game expects you to do the same thing through moving the mouse back on target and breath control. expecting the gun to stay on target when you are not moving the mouse is like expecting someone who is not trying to aim or practice proper marksmanship to still holding his gun perfectly on target.

I'm not expecting the gun to aim for me, the point of the video was to show in my opinion, how bad the scope sway is on its own. Yes I am aware that weapons sway in real life, they sway predictably if you are just standing there breathing (like your character does when aiming down the sights). However, I think if you could trace the pattern from the sway you would see that it's very random and has large deviations for no reason. To me the sway is like he is injured, and if hes actually injured it's even more extreme.

The holo red dot has exactly the same sway as the magnified.

I know this, however what I meant was that I feel like I can hit closer targets easier with a red dot since the sway isn't as pronounced due to the lack of magnification, except I have to squint already at closer ranges.

Also assume you are only playing pvp. Because the ai is currently very off balance - and features like weapon sway shouldn't be effected by how crazily unbalanced the ai's abilities are but rather the other way around.

I never play PVP, and what exactly do you mean by this?

@all those against weapon sway or more specifically more weapon sway while prone - do you think its realistic to be able to hits targets at 500m(make sure to fully comprehend just how far that truly is) with the same lack of concentration and speed that

in my OP? Do you think you could do the same in real life?

Again, I am not against sway as a feature, I think that it is just not done right as of now. No I do not think it is easy to hit someone at 500m, it wasn't easy in arma 2 either. However I think it should be hard to do because of other factors including scope sway. Right now its just scope sway affecting it.

Remember real life firefight can last hours at only 100-200 metres...

No offense, but I don't like this reasoning. Yes they can last for hours in real life, but it's not because the people shooting back and forth have shitty scope sway or a lack of skill.

Do people really want to spend an hour in the first firefight of a very long mission? I really don't want to.

The AI (which is a large portion of this game) is not smart enough to do good suppressing fire or smart enough to conserve their ammo at all, or maneuver. the AI are stupid enough. I don't want a firefight that would take an hour with actual people take even longer because my AI team mate REALLY likes to stare at this wall and shoot at it for an entire magazine. It would be a different story if you could order them to EASILY flank or get into position (like brothers in arms or full spectrum warrior or other games I cant remember)

[metalcraze 290]

Do people really want to spend an hour in the first firefight of a very long mission? I really don't want to.

That's why we now spend only 5-10 minutes in ArmA3.

Had to spend less than that in ArmA2.

And that's why sway is just perfect. It's just right. Hitting stuff 200-300m away should never be as easy as it was in ArmA2.

If anything this will only increase the skill ceiling and make players practice a lot more with guns, considering that we lack wind affecting bullets.

[Anachoretes 10]

No offense, but I don't like this reasoning. Yes they can last for hours in real life, but it's not because the people shooting back and forth have shitty scope sway or a lack of skill.

Not, for sure. Because for accurate shooting you need time, but that time can cost life. And ArmA about This. What did you do. Sometime your task is waiting for air strike - thats all you can without stupid death. Or placing LMG on the top of obstacle and shooting in milk.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:16 ----------

5-10 minutes in ArmA3.

For briefing?

[Defunkt 431]

More sway please along with usable bi-pods and weapon resting.

[fujix 11]

More sway please along with usable bi-pods and weapon resting.

More sway? No thanks. Its already ridiculously high. How about a slider in the options menu? You know like headbob. Then you can play as a soldier with Parkinsons all day long if you wish.

[Defunkt 431]

How about a slider in the options menu?

More than happy for you to have an 'easy mode' option, as long as a minimum is controlled/enforced by the server in multiplayer.

[-Coulum- 35]

... well, yeah, I gave it a shot after reading your reply so it was indeed as hard as I made it out to be, that's what my reply back was based on!

The amount of sway in that video is so much that I wouldn't even attempt a shot, so no, without holding breath hitting a target ain't happening for me, much less "within a few seconds".

Okay then. Sorry for not taking your original reply seriously enough - people tend to exaggerate on these types of things or sometimes they don't realize just how difficult or easy something is. I wasn't sure if you were. If you can't hit 300 metre targets while prone reliably under a couple seconds then I guess my argument of "prone is to easy compared to reality" does not apply to you in any sense. I guess the next question is, is it common for others to have the same problem. I assumed not because I personally

Maybe I am ignorant though?

And that is very boring at a game.

I don't want Arma 3 to be a COD or BF3, but some completely realistic aspects don't improve immersion or fun. The game can have a unique slow pace and be fun without having realistic and boring firefights that last too long.

Things that improve immersion, gameplay, realism and fun are for example wind and weapon resting. One adds difficulty and the other easiness when applied properly.

Fair enough. You would find it boring. I would find it fun. I would rather a whole session consists of one hard fought firefight. I assume you prefer missions with many quick and decisive firefights. To each his own. I cannot argue about what you should find more or less fun. What I can say is that if your goal is realistic gameplay, sway is the way to go.

This summarizes quite well why I enjoy one long struggle of a firefight rather than short decisive firefights (at ranges over 100m of course)

Boring firefights that last too long? Sounds like you could probably respawn.

Elongated firefights are a long term psychological test of wills. Between ammunition shortages, failed maneuvers, split up squads, IMMENSE psychological pressure on the squad leader to plan movements, react to enemy movements, sitreps, keeping his soldiers alive, and keeping himself alive I dont know what kind fun is missing. Barring your medic getting killed and being forced to watch 2 men slowly bleed to death. Shit wrong game arma 3 xD

Unless you only like your fun like quake. Run to bad guy, be surprised, shoot at bad guy, bad guy shoots at you. Some one dies game over. Respawn? In the space of 5 minutes. I get the adrenalin from that but thats like only eating cheeseburgers whilst the chef has made a lovely steak.

It also ruins the premise of fire superiority and suppression. There isnt much need when you can hit everything so darn easily. People seem to conveniently forget how much ammo is taken and expended firefights. Typical arma firefight 7mags on person 5mags in pack. End mission 5mags on person 5 mags in pack.

Unfortunately most of the popular game modes there arent many reasons to truly care about your life or the men around you.

I enjoy the experience he describes.

Again, I am not against sway as a feature, I think that it is just not done right as of now. No I do not think it is easy to hit someone at 500m, it wasn't easy in arma 2 either. However I think it should be hard to do because of other factors including scope sway. Right now its just scope sway affecting it.

Okay fair enough. I can see how the randomness of the sway isn't the greatest (there should be some, but you are right that it is too high at the moment). I am also all for other shooting difficulties (I assume you mean wind). The only thing I disagree with is

No I do not think it is easy to hit someone at 500m, it wasn't easy in arma 2 either.

In arma 2 shooting at long range while prone was pretty much a done deal. I could drop guys at 500 metres with just a CQB sight. Arma 3 is harder, but as you are aware I still find it child's play compared to reality. But obviously you and Chortles show that I do not represent everyone.

I never play PVP, and what exactly do you mean by this?

Basically weaponsway will seem alot worse and unfair when ai themselves don't really have to deal with it and are able to spot you so inhumanly quick after you fire. Shooting at a human player you will have more time to line up a perfect shot (if you have engaged them in a way that is advantageous to you). Against ai no matter how you engage, you can expect to be dead if you don't hit within 5 seconds or so. I don't play dtonnes of PVP either especially not so far in A# (only wasteland really) but I think it is a much better environment for testing the realism of features because you have one less variable to worry about (the shoddy ai).

No offense, but I don't like this reasoning. Yes they can last for hours in real life, but it's not because the people shooting back and forth have shitty scope sway or a lack of skill.

Its not meant to be reasoning, its just some food for thought. I am aware that long firefights are not only due to shooting accuracy/ease only. Terrain camoflauge, microterrain and real care for ones safety all contribute to the gap between arma length and real length firefights. But ease of shooting does contribute as well. All the things I mention don't matter if I get shot the moment I raise my head out of cover more than 2 seconds because it is too easy for the enemy to aim quickly while still being accurate.

Do people really want to spend an hour in the first firefight of a very long mission? I really don't want to.

see my response to Down8 then. but maybe your answer to this:

Do you think that the sway creates unrealistic situations or do you just dislike it as a game feature, regardless of if it is more or less realistic?

Should have been the latter then?

If anything this will only increase the skill ceiling and make players practice a lot more with guns, considering that we lack wind affecting bullets.

Good point. Where as in arma 2 it was very hard to be extremely bad or extremely good at shooting now there is more room for specialty. When you deciding on team rolls you will now have to take into account players proficiency as well. Your marksman will actually have to be a good shot. Instead of the weapon solely defining a class, it is now also the player. Just like in reality (ideally).

More sway please along with usable bi-pods and weapon resting

Yes I agree. Bipods and weapon resting will help to balance things out as well if they are ever implemented. Ie. prone has a tad bit more sway, but you have the option to take off your ruck and rest your weapon on it while prone giving you even more stability than we have for current prone sway. (can you do that in VTS? get on it L etranger!:))

[Anachoretes 10]

Your marksman will actually have to be a good shot. Instead of the weapon solely defining a class, it is now also the player. Just like in reality (ideally).

Well, it should be. The only thing it does not work with the AI ​​as it is still stupid "bull's eye" fighters.

[ghostnineone 10]

Okay then. Sorry for not taking your original reply seriously enough - people tend to exaggerate on these types of things or sometimes they don't realize just how difficult or easy something is. I wasn't sure if you were. If you can't hit 300 metre targets while prone reliably under a couple seconds then I guess my argument of "prone is to easy compared to reality" does not apply to you in any sense. I guess the next question is, is it common for others to have the same problem. I assumed not because I personally

Maybe I am ignorant though?

I don't think you should assume things are easy for everyone, I for one have trouble with it because I have pretty shitty vision, and my viewing distance to my monitor is not very close, nor do i have a good mouse pad, so no, my time probably would not compare to yours, but also testing in a range limits the amount of variables that would affect your ability to engage as they are not present. (crap cover, getting shot at, etc)

Also, since I don't have perfect vision or the best reaction time or ability to control the mouse because of overly tight arm muscles, does that mean my complaints aren't valid? I'm not saying that's what you are saying, because you didn't say that. It seem's like I'm trying to get BI to cater to me, but I'm not. I think there is an issue with the sway, and so do others. I can't hit what I'm aiming at because of the scope sway. Not because of anything else.

In arma 2 shooting at long range while prone was pretty much a done deal. I could drop guys at 500 metres with just a CQB sight. Arma 3 is harder, but as you are aware I still find it child's play compared to reality. But obviously you and Chortles show that I do not represent everyone.

I cannot. Also, I don't think anyone is going to drop a person at 500m in an actual firefight with irons or unmagnified optics in real life in 30 seconds or less. (I am aware the Marines do 500m quals with irons, however I don't think that compares to an actual firefight)

Basically weaponsway will seem alot worse and unfair when ai themselves don't really have to deal with it and are able to spot you so inhumanly quick after you fire. Shooting at a human player you will have more time to line up a perfect shot (if you have engaged them in a way that is advantageous to you). Against ai no matter how you engage, you can expect to be dead if you don't hit within 5 seconds or so. I don't play dtonnes of PVP either especially not so far in A# (only wasteland really) but I think it is a much better environment for testing the realism of features because you have one less variable to worry about (the shoddy ai).

This is part of the problem, the AI does not help me because I have to spend so long countering the sway and they do not. Would I have a problem with the sway if they couldn't kill me within seconds? Yes, because I have a problem with it even if I am not in imminent danger. To me the problem is magnified with the current AI problems. I don't think i should have to be forced to play a certain game mode in order to possibly hate the scope sway less. Right now if you want to avoid the shitty AI, you can play PVP, however a lot of people do not like or play PVP or will end up going up against the AI at some point anyways (campaign, co-op missions). So they will still run into issues. I might run into less issues with the sway in PVP, but that doesn't fix the problem for me.

Its not meant to be reasoning, its just some food for thought. I am aware that long firefights are not only due to shooting accuracy/ease only. Terrain camoflauge, microterrain and real care for ones safety all contribute to the gap between arma length and real length firefights. But ease of shooting does contribute as well. All the things I mention don't matter if I get shot the moment I raise my head out of cover more than 2 seconds because it is too easy for the enemy to aim quickly while still being accurate.

Which is what currently happens, and in my opinion the scope sway doesn't do anything to prevent you from instantly dying. I don't think my firefights should last an hour because it's being spent hiding from the AI for long periods of time so you don't die instantly, or hiding waiting until i can hold my breath again. To me, that's not how every firefight has to go. Right now it seems like the only way TO have a fire fight and not die is to stand around taking pot shot's at the AI whenever the crazy scope sway allows, which is how a lot of my firefights tend to go lately.

see my response to Down8 then. but maybe your answer should have been the latter then?

No, I don't think it should be the latter. My problem is with the scope sway being too much and to me that creates unrealistic situations (both real life realistic, and gaming realistic). You even agreed that the sway is too high. So I don't understand why my answer should be different.

In my opinion, the scope sway is just one of the many problems that causes the game to feel unrealistic to me, the randomness of the sway just standing around and the crazy AI are limiting my ability to play and enjoy the game. I'm not asking for an easy button or no scope sway, I'm saying that it doesn't feel realistic to me. It feels too much like a fake method of trying to make the game harder because shooting is really hard and if there is crazy random scope sway and heavy recoil that is supposed to "simulate" shooting being really hard in real life.

If you pick up an m4 and stand there and point it at something and just breathe in and out normally, and then fire at something, do you think the recoil you feel/see and what you see happening to your sight picture is the same as what you will see in arma? Obviously recoil is hard to simulate, but a gun with low recoil should have low recoil in the game as well, and standard breathing should move in a predictable pattern and only deviate from that if you are starting to be fatigued or move. This is not what happens in Arma, and that's why I have a problem with it, and therefore it feels cheap. Instead of a figure 8 it feels like this is what your character is trying to draw with the pretty red dot.

Good point. Where as in arma 2 it was very hard to be extremely bad or extremely good at shooting now there is more room for specialty. When you deciding on team rolls you will now have to take into account players proficiency as well. Your marksman will actually have to be a good shot. Instead of the weapon solely defining a class, it is now also the player. Just like in reality (ideally).

Technically everyone should be a good shot with their respective weapons regardless of position. Are you sure it's difficult to be very good at shooting in arma 2? By your prior explanations it seems like it's very easy to do. "child's play" and that even a noobie should be able to kill bad guys at 500+ meters with no optics. Obviously that isn't the case in arma 2 and definitely not in this game.

Yes I agree. Bipods and weapon resting will help to balance things out as well if they are ever implemented. Ie. prone has a tad bit more sway, but you have the option to take off your ruck and rest your weapon on it while prone giving you even more stability than we have for current prone sway. (can you do that in VTS? get on it L etranger!:))

These need to be implemented. They should already be in. I don't understand what BI's aversion to it is.

Edited June 28, 2013 by ghostnineone

[Anachoretes 10]

So mush of worthless theory.

Someone's inability to cope with swaying or wrong AI is not the reason for creation of shooting sticks.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Anachoretes

[ghostnineone 10]

So mush of worthless theory.

Someone's inability to cope with swaying or wrong AI is not the reason for creation of shooting sticks.

That's not what I am asking for. It is possible to cope with the sway, but that doesn't mean it is REALISTIC. It is possible to drive vehicles decently in arma, but that does not mean they handle how they really should. It is possible to cope with the AI being ridiculous, but that doesn't mean they should remain that way.

Just because it is possible to cope with something, or just because other people don't have an issue with something, does not make other peoples concerns invalid. The entire point of feedback is to look at it objectively. Yes, I am not as good as Dyslexci, but you don't have to be amazing at a game to see that something is broken. You might have to be amazing to cope with it well enough to be amazing, but just because someone can headshot me at 500m because they can handle the sway, does not change the fact that the pattern of the sway has no business moving the way it does, and the author of this thread, who is against changing the scope sway because he can handle it well even agreed with me that it has issues. So I think that kind of suggests the feature could use some tweaking. In my opinion, unless you have friends to make the game fun, or you set the AI to stupid, the game right now is not very enjoyable, or playable. People will obviously disagree with that, but I can tell you right now the reason I'm not having fun isn't because I suck at this game, because it is entirely possible to be terrible at a game and have fun. I'm not having fun because the game is trying to force unrealistic things on me to make the game "hard" that in my opinion, are cheap and badly designed. That is not fucking fun to me, it's frustrating.

[Anachoretes 10]

but that doesn't mean it is REALISTIC

I have this in real. And im glad to have this in simulator. So I can't imagine what the basis of your claim. Plastic weapon? The first thing that comes to mind - too difficult for you. But wait a minute, in the game is not very difficult. Another issue is that the developer or modders need to slightly adjust it for different positions of the body. But it's a different degree of the problem. You must to know, that if you in firefight, no matter how good you with you weapon. Its not are hollywood or something. You do fast and not accurate bullet pressure from you side. And sometime you have momets to aim shooting. But this is risk, and technic. And what mean "Technically everyone should be a good shot with their respective weapons " if the game do not have all this physical stuff?

Combining a cross with a victim in vew is not fun, and it's are spinal cord. Not realy fun.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Anachoretes

[ghostnineone 10]

Whether it is difficult or not for me is not the problem. It's not difficult for OP and yet he agreed with me that the sway is too high. It's not a difficulty issue, just because I have trouble with it and you don't doesn't mean there isn't anything wrong with it. It just means you can cope with it being broken better. The AI are also broken, but just because people play on veteran with super AI doesn't mean the AI isn't completely fucked up because they most definitely are, and other's have agreed with me, including OP.

Yes, I do have experience with this, I have fired a lot of weapons including AR-15's and AK-47's and shotguns, I also shot competitive air rifle in my schools ROTC unit. I am a 5'7" 110lb 21 year old male, and I was a hell of a lot smaller back then. If someone as small as me can handle an assault rifle with minimal sway, why the fuck is the weapon of an experienced soldier that probably weighs at least 100lbs more than me swaying so god damn bad?

The pattern of the sway right now does NOT move how it would in real life and that is a fact. If I am pointing my weapon at someone 200m away and I have not done anything to physically exert myself or am not injured or stressed in any way, my point of aim should not deviate so badly that it almost settles on someone standing at least two or three arm lengths away. If you watch the video I posted you can watch it do almost exactly what I just described, I will even screen shot it for proof when it's not 0330.

Edit: I'm sorry, but I'm having a lot of trouble trying to understand your English. I don't understand what you just edited in at all.

Edit: I mean that there ideally should not be anyone on a squad that sucks. The marksman has to be good with his weapon, but I'd hope everyone else on the squad is also as competent with whatever they are using.

Edited June 28, 2013 by ghostnineone

[Anachoretes 10]

move how it would in real life and that is a fact.

In real life, people have different hands, different legs, and arms held differently. A weapon has a different weight and center. What exactly do you mean by correct sway?

The marksman has to be good with his weapon

.

I got it. Al i want to say: what mean to be sniper or marksman or rifleman if all do you need - move crosshair to targed? No personal swaying depend weapon weight and position. What is mastery? For now, recoil need more improvments.

weighs at least 100lbs more than me swaying so god damn bad?

Ak-47 always swaying in kids hands. Maybe you can't recognize it, but scope can.

This is a very sensitive process and your hands and body must be very tense. But we have Hold Breath for that.

[-Coulum- 35]

It's not difficult for OP and yet he agreed with me that the sway is too high.

Mmm.. no. Sorry if I gave you that idea, but I still pretty much maintain my original thoughts

• Sway in crouch and standing are acceptable
  
• Sway in prone needs to be tuned up a bit to make it require at lease a bit of concentration
  
• Bipods and resting would be nice
  

The only thing I remember agreeing with you on is that the sway pattern isn't exactly what my sway pattern looks like in real life. It is random and doesn't quite have the same rythmic up and down sway that I have. In game it more "swings" in a random direction with a curve up or down. Its like the figure eight got chopped up. That being said, I still find it acceptable because the results are still pretty realistic - It takes along time for me to hit a target at longer ranges, if I can even hit... except of course when I am prone.

I don't think you should assume things are easy for everyone, I for one have trouble with it because I have pretty shitty vision, and my viewing distance to my monitor is not very close, nor do i have a good mouse pad, so no, my time probably would not compare to yours, but also testing in a range limits the amount of variables that would affect your ability to engage as they are not present. (crap cover, getting shot at, etc)

All my arguments are based off of the type of tests I have been showing in my vids - ideal conditions shooting large targets. I too have trouble shooting a headsized target even at 300m if there are bullets incoming and he is moving. But my arguments are not based on that. I think my assumptions are fair - I have a 24 inch monitor running arma at 1024x768(thats what happens when your gfx card is literally listed on the minimum specs). I don't have a mouse pad. I don't play many other fps, at least not nearly as much as arma (whopping 40 hours on that). I get absolutely destroyed in twitch shooters. I don't think it was to big an assumption on my part that people were able to at least have similar results as me... And if you still can't hit 300 metre targets while prone (in a situation exactly like my vids - not actual combat) wthin a few seconds I think that you are a small minority. My reasonig for this is because you say arma 2 is hard to aim too and from my experience in arma 2 pvp, you are very lucky if you survive the first 10 seconds of a contact because a couple guys prone at 400 metres were so damn effective at mowing down a unaware squad in that 10 seconds.

his is part of the problem, the AI does not help me because I have to spend so long countering the sway and they do not. Would I have a problem with the sway if they couldn't kill me within seconds? Yes, because I have a problem with it even if I am not in imminent danger. To me the problem is magnified with the current AI problems. I don't think i should have to be forced to play a certain game mode in order to possibly hate the scope sway less. Right now if you want to avoid the shitty AI, you can play PVP, however a lot of people do not like or play PVP or will end up going up against the AI at some point anyways (campaign, co-op missions). So they will still run into issues. I might run into less issues with the sway in PVP, but that doesn't fix the problem for me.

Yeah this is why I say assume pvp for the sake of this discussion. Ai are bad and force unrealistic behavior on the players part. But this is a problem iwth the ai, not the weaponsway.

Yes, I do have experience with this, I have fired a lot of weapons including AR-15's and AK-47's and shotguns, I also shot competitive air rifle in my schools ROTC unit. I am a 5'7" 110lb 21 year old male, and I was a hell of a lot smaller back then. If someone as small as me can handle an assault rifle with minimal sway, why the fuck is the weapon of an experienced soldier that probably weighs at least 100lbs more than me swaying so god damn bad?

hehe, I happen to be exactly 100lbs heavier as you describef. And 7 inches taller. I think it is wrong to assume that every soldier is a pro shot and jacked. There are big guys in the army and there are little guys in the army. There are guys who are great shots and those that can't shoot for shit. Apparently the sway in arma actually does quite well to reproduce this variance... This is why I disagree with this:

I mean that there ideally should not be anyone on a squad that sucks. The marksman has to be good with his weapon, but I'd hope everyone else on the squad is also as competent with whatever they are using.

In reality some people are simply better than others. I would hate for sway to be decreased simply because a few can't handle it. And although it is limiting against ai, in pvp it doesn't mean you aren't still an effective part of the team. Killing people isn't the only way to influence a firefight.

Ak-47 always swaying in kids hands. Maybe you can't recognize it, but scope can.

This is a very sensitive process and your hands and body must be very tense. But we have Hold Breath for that.

Yes indeed. It doesn't look like much when you look down the sights naked eye (just like ingame), but if you attach a laser to the gun and point at distance you will see just how that "perfectly stable" isn't so accurate - that laser will be bouncing around.

There is alot more I could reply to but unfortunately I am off to work. I will finish by saying:

Sway pattern may not be 100% spot on to what you see in reality. It never will be unless BIS personalizes the game for each and everyone of us. However we can judge the realism of the feature by the results it creates. I have reproduced situations I have been in real life ingame and compared my results. My findings are that the prone sway is too easy to cope with too fast. Apparently those results aren't the same as everyone else (ghostonenine and chortles). I think this is actually good though. The sway is created the same variance in skill level you will find in reality. I still believe that prone shooting is generally too easy to do quickly. I understand that ghostnineone, you still find it hard. But I dare to suggest, that maybe this isn't so much a problem with the game mechanic, but with you?

[daveallen10 35]

I personally like the challenge of the current system with high recoil and sway. Makes it a little easier to survive IMO instead of BAM! dead at 700 meters every time you spawn in. It makes firefights more realistic and lengthy--like in real life. More maneuvering to get the better shot or first strike on your opponent. I like that.