OVER POWERED AI ! Please fix this for final game ruins coop

[call_911 10]

You could launch this mod on the server side.

It's working great, it's a good solution before we can set the AI correctly in A3.

Did'nt that get broken with previous beta? An yes ai are a bit overpowered, scanning, spotting,reacting,aiming speed, ai shooting u before there animations catch up with there body movement, or seeing the uber ai snap to target in a milisec crack shot, 500m plus 1 shot kills. partly the reason why i only hosted GitsEvolution as it had an dificulty setting but the mp exploit fix broke it. An dont get me wrong if it was easy we'd probably not play it as long as we do but currently the op has a valid point.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Call_911

[papanowel 120]

It's working for us but we usually not playing on AI spawning missions. Works fine in stable build.

[telkwa 0]

I submitted a see through objects ticket.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8226

Watch the video link in the description. It demonstrates that the AI can see when I am behind the door and when I am not. They fire when I'm behind an object which they know their rounds can penetrate. When I move away from the door and behind the mud brick walls of the building they cease firing. I provoke them in this manner several times in the video and the timing is spot on every time.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Telkwa

[Masharra 10]

my god, telkwa.

[old_painless 182]

I submitted a see through objects ticket.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8226

This is really disturbing - no missions make sense now.

Hopefully, its because the game objects do not yet have their properties set right.

Upset and upvoted,

OP

[BiZzR32 10]

AI wasnt my main problem all day today.............

IT WAS ARMA 3 CRASHING every F^$KiN# Time i tried to play today.. before then it was freezing my PC up ... Gettin about sick of this platform of a build HURRY UP BETA !

[Second 0]

I submitted a see through objects ticket.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8226

Watch the video link in the description. It demonstrates that the AI can see when I am behind the door and when I am not. They fire when I'm behind an object which they know their rounds can penetrate. When I move away from the door and behind the mud brick walls of the building they cease firing. I provoke them in this manner several times in the video and the timing is spot on every time.

It's pretty clear that AI doesn't see thru bushes of anything, has been since OFP. Problem is their targeting system which is capable to pick your exact position (not you) and kind of overcoming cover and concelament. Just the way you can shoot target marks on you HUD, AI knows it can shoot thru bushes so it fires thru bushes. This is OFP-old stuff and i've not paid attention to it since ArmA. But this is the way i understand it works/worked:

1. You shoot. Creating both audio and visual clue for enemy to pick up, to player this is visble by target marks given by SL. This might last from anything from milliseconds to seconds, depending of configs. Forexample in OFP burst fire was notorius because it created strong clue for enemy to pick up which lasted for about 5 seconds. So enemy was aware of you the whole time, no matter what you do. In ArmA AT-soldier had seriously hard time to evade getting shot on without proper cover. If i recall enemy was aware of exact location for 10 seconds or so picking you up form behind bush, so anykind of concealment was useless as AI knew it can shoot past it and it did. Bushes still had properties to hide you from their eyes, but their targetting system kinda overwrote that... Just the way target mark on you HUD does.

2. Once that 5 (or something) seconds expires your location isn't known anymore. Enemy will presume you still linger in same spot. So if they get orders to engage you they go to that location. If you fire again and they detect it -> return to #1.

That made OFP and ArmA to be solely about dead-on accurate singleshots shot at long intervals, main thing was to remain "silent" and "unseen" by regulating singleshots to over 5 second intervals and to know that you can't hide the target mark from them and try to counter that. Or that was how i thought of it. And it seems same system is still installed in ArmA3.

[metalcraze 290]

Sorry but you are both wrong

This is what really happens, AI just permanently has knowsAbout at 4 which has nothing to do with vision or awareness or pinpointing your position:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8204

Think about it as AI having GPS feed of every enemy he saw for even a moment at all times.

Telkwa's issue is like "well the enemy is at this position but I can't see him because there's a thick wall obscuring my view which I also can't shoot through... ok now enemy is at this position and there's only a wooden door between us so since I can shoot through a door I will try and suppress him, maybe hitting him in the process... ok now the enemy is at this window - oh snap look like I have a clear LOS to him! *aimed shot* "

Edited May 12, 2013 by metalcraze

[telkwa 0]

Whatever method they use or code they have to gain the advantage sure sucks all the same :D. Was this behavior present in Arma2 even slightly?

[metalcraze 290]

No. It's a bug, probably introduced in a dev build some time ago (which probably made it into stable too).

In ArmA2 AI would either consider an enemy to be at the last position he has seen the enemy at or if enemy was moving behind an object an AI will continue to track that said enemy at the same speed in the same direction, eventually shooting the enemy right when he would come from behind that object if the enemy didn't change direction of movement. So if AI couldn't find an enemy for a few minutes he would report "clear" and return to formation. It was quite realistic.

Enemy = player or AI, to ArmA it makes no difference.

[Second 0]

Sorry but you are both wrong

This is what really happens, AI just permanently has knowsAbout at 4 which has nothing to do with vision or awareness or pinpointing your position:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8204

umm. No. And i general i think your comparing apples to oranges. That seems to be more about somesort of tracking system, and how engage order works. They do follow your movement path, heck they even track you if you teleport. But that is not same thing as targeting and seeing.

Just tested. I revealed enemy AI to SL and SL told me to target him (with cadet mode i get target marker), then teleported enemy to another place. Target marker remained on the spot where he was, while he quite clearly wasn't. Even another reveal command didn't give enemy's new location, not until old marker had faded. Dunno why, i think it updated marker location before. Also SL kept his azimut related to target marker, not actual position where i teleported him into.

I also played as enemy, shot one from from their squad to ensure their enduring interest on me and then teleported away. They couldn't trace me. Checked that as having playable character in said squad. Target marker and enemy sign in map remained in where they had last contact to me (from where i teleported away)... Even when another squad members started to move to location into where i teleported him into. And here's interesting part, when they found their target it got reported as new threat! They were not aware of any particular enemy (=me), but they were aware that something is there.

So main problem i see at the moment is that they can track enemies over long distances. Until SL commands them back, and that can be hundreds of meters, even kilometers.

On matter of AI targeting enemies i think my case still stands. Infact i just did test thing where i teleported my character all over enemy AI squad and they shot me when they had LOS, when they didn't have LOS they didn't. But when i opened fire they replied to it with immediate wrath of god. I could crawl 50-100 meters from them in long crass and they didnt' spot me. But i i shot at them from 400-500 meters they shot me thru bushes and all. It seems ArmA3 still operates under same ruleset as previous titles: they don't need to see enemy to shoot at it, enemy has to just give them clue about his location, generally by firing his firearm.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Second

[pawelkpl 29]

After weeks of getting annoyed at the AI in COOP MP missions i am considering changing to PVP because their not over powered super freeks ! Consdier being shot 500m away while ur laying down covering behind a rock and you shoot 1 enemy then another random one spots you puts his gun up and fires, not even taking any time to line up a shot from a standing position . It just ruins the fun of it. Changing the skill level doesnt change the AI just changes the markings and player positions am i right?

PLEASE FIX THIS ISSUES ALSO ! Along with all the others ones , mainly being the constant crashing of the game and Slowing down to a freeze at time , gameplay . . . I respectfully request these issues to be looked at also asap !

Join my server, you won'y be frustarted with AI, I`ve spent countless hours adjusting AI to get good balance bettween game and reality and now it looks good. cheers.

[chrisb 196]

You really have to work hard at tweaking ai, its almost not possible in A3A, obviously, as there is limited places to tweak. However A2 on the other hand has lots of choices with various ai mod/addons, so tweaking is easier to get really nice, but it takes many hours of testing to get the right balance. Plus it’s a personal thing, not everyone likes the same type of game play.

Standard ai has never really been challenging, they shoot very well and are given some ‘cheat methods’, if you like, which we have seen throughout the series, but they aren’t a patch on modded ai. Its all down to how deeply you want to get into the game, the standard ai is fine for those popping in and out, using it more like a shooter, works o.k, or will in A3 further down the line.

But if you really want to get in deep with the game and need, or want, to use ai often, you have to tweak, experiment, test and use mods, there’s no choice really.

Luckily over the years talented mod/addon makers have given this and other communities some really great ai mod/addons. These have given the players that want to get deeper into the game a chance to fine tune ai, to get them to almost exactly where they want them.

Arma 3, I hope, at some stage may have the same options, as I said, I hope. If options do come over to A3 from A2, or new ones (mod/addons) are made, then there will be time to do it all again for A3.

So all that can be said for A3 at the moment is, be patient and hope..

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Something I wondered out loud on the bug-tracker - the year is 2035....

Would this not be normal through advanced technology by then? UAV's / Satellites / data exchange displaying target location on the helmet visor - is that what the squad leader's "target that man/vehicle" HUD symbology is supposed to represent?

Just a thought, what do you think?

The problem is that you get killed as soon as the top of your head crosses the horizon because the mission developers and the server admins are not giving any consideration to Skill / difficulty settings. If you adjust those it's fine.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[instagoat 133]

The AI's first shot precision is too high, even with low AI precision values, and their spotting abillity from audio clues is -way- too good. They treat sound as if it were a visual cue, light a flashlight blinking in a bush.

What I´ve seen in my short range tests was that not even impenetrable cover will prevent an AI from shooting at the threat directly if they get a cue at them, visual or audio (unless the first cue is audio, and not visual, ie, if you fire your gun behind a wall they will spot you, but not try to shoot you through the wall. That´s not the same, however.) Especially if you shoot -at- somebody, they will immediately spot you.

Add to that the fact that certain weapons behave in a weird fashion in the hands of the AI. For example, Machinegunners with the M200 have been disproportionally deadly in tests I´ve run in the open landscape, and also playing the infantry showcase. I have had situations occur where a single high-skill M200 gunner killed five or six squadmates in a row, out to distances of about 300 meters. And if they shoot, they get you with the first burst.

Suppression is nonexistent because the AI only "knows" the concept of a discrete target. There is no such thing as an area target (ie, the enemy may be hidden anywhere within this area, so we shoot at it). You do not suppress a discrete target: you kill it. Because if it is not singly and visible, it is not a discrete target, and your "knows about" value should be reduced to an -area- instead of a -point-.

Another problem is the complete and utter uselessness of body armour. The benefit it brings is so marginal as to be unnoticeable in gameplay, and I bet if you do serial tests and make a table, you would notice that wearing full body armour vs wearing none at all makes no difference. I have been single shotted through the chest with pistols from 75 meters, wearing the crye cage vest. That thing carries rifle-level armoured plates. A conventional pistol round would probably not even reach the ballistic soft armour behind the plate.

The AI still inherits all the problems of previous iterations. By now I am beginning to believe that tweaking and correcting previous values, as BI has stated would be done only, will not solve the problems. They are not symptoms of bad configuration, they are symptoms of an inherent lack of abillity that cannot be corrected through tweaks or tack-on-scripting.

Maybe a ground-up, brand new AI system is in order?

[xyberviri 1]

If everyone has to edit a mission to do the same thing, then it should just be lowered by default. Personally i am getting pretty sick of BIS messing up default settings every fucking time, it really takes away from the game.

Really?

Im really sick of everyone blaming BI for everything because they can't read the wiki. The default AI skill settings are set based on difficulty maybe the community should stop making every dam mission Veteran+

Maybe you all should search the FEEDBACK TRACKER and submit this thing called "FEEDBACK" as in a bug report so that BI can track it down properly

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8204 <-- this is the AI is overpowered issue.

people needs to submit feedback like "When i do X the AI knows about it and should not because of Y"

AND NOT like "OMG THIS GAME SUXX I PAID FOR ALPHA ACCESS AND I WANT THE GAME TO WORK 100%" <--BAD FEED BACK

Edited May 13, 2013 by xyberviri

[NeMeSiS 11]

Really?

Im really sick of everyone blaming BI for everything because they can't read the wiki. The default AI skill settings are set based on difficulty maybe the community should stop making every dam mission Veteran+

Maybe you all should search the FEEDBACK TRACKER and submit this thing called "FEEDBACK" as in a bug report so that BI can track it down properly

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8204 <-- this is the AI is overpowered issue.

people needs to submit feedback like "When i do X the AI knows about it and should not because of Y"

AND NOT like "OMG THIS GAME SUXX I PAID FOR ALPHA ACCESS AND I WANT THE GAME TO WORK 100%" <--BAD FEED BACK

Calm down.

BI knows that ever since OFP came out people have been lowering the default AI accuracy, long before we had any bugtrackers or anything. I already have submitted multiple tickets(for other issues), but i am not going to make a new ticket for this, since there are about a million of them already. They are aware of the issue, but apparently BI sees it more as a design choice.

[maturin 12]

Sorry but you are both wrong

This is what really happens, AI just permanently has knowsAbout at 4 which has nothing to do with vision or awareness or pinpointing your position:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8204

Think about it as AI having GPS feed of every enemy he saw for even a moment at all times.

"

Metalcraze, more testing is needed.

The A2 AI couldn't track at all unfairly, but there were still occasional glitches where the game would slip up and AI would catch glimpses of people through hills (it stands to reason that a complex object like a heightmap would have some built-in errors).

You may have caught one of those, especially given the presence of conflicting results.

[metalcraze 290]

I did some more testing and have noticed that AI wouldn't track you forever if they haven't noticed you - however if at least one AI spots you his knowsAbout will stay at 4 permanently. Which in turn will get shared with other teammembers who may have 0 knowsAbout.

In short - it looks like when knowsAbout reaches 4 it never goes down from there.

[dmarkwick 261]

I did some more testing and have noticed that AI wouldn't track you forever if they haven't noticed you - however if at least one AI spots you his knowsAbout will stay at 4 permanently. Which in turn will get shared with other teammembers who may have 0 knowsAbout.

In short - it looks like when knowsAbout reaches 4 it never goes down from there.

Additional info:

KnowsAbout will stay at 4 until the AI hasn't seen you for several minutes, then it will drop. (At least - that's how it should work.) It's the only way for KnowsAbout to drop, there is no way to force it down.

Although the KnowsAbout may be 4, that's not to say he *actually* knows your position, it's just an indication of how certain he is of your position, even though he may be wrong. (Again, at least that's how it's supposed to work).

I haven't checked myself about the KnowsAbout situation in the current A3 builds, but your video seems shows that it seems to be dysfunctional at the moment.

[-Coulum- 35]

My understanding was that knowsabout was how well the ai was able to identify you - friend or foe. If that's the case it's not unreasonable to have it remain at a constant level even when you are not within sight.

I think the issue needs a lot more testing though metalcraze a repro definitely shows something is wrong. But I don't think the issue is as simple as ai always know where you are once they spot you - because that would defeat the purpose of many different things like the ai predicting your movements.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Ive been trying to reproduce the 'AI seeing through objects/receiving data about your position' thing, but couldnt really reproduce it.

I got the same results as in ArmA2:

See video description for a downloadlink, so you can try it out in other scenarios. I tried it with groups, killing, hiding behind various objects and the terrain itself, but always got the same, non buggy, results.

EDIT: Also, it still impresses me when a simple group with a guard waypoint really tries to sneak up on the position where they think i am. It just looks great. :)

EDIT2: Yeah, knowsabout is for the knowledge about the side/type of the enemy, not about position. It shouldnt go down suddenly when you are out of sight, the AI arent goldfish.

Edited May 13, 2013 by NeMeSiS

[froggyluv 2135]

Nice looking test Nemesis - at best this shows the AI functioning properly yet coupled with Metalcraze's, shows it's an intricate problem going on.

Another thing it highlights is the way AI predict your probable movement pattern..or does it? Yes it follows your trajectory in a very linear, simplified way but in reality, another real person would have hovered over the spot you kept peeking out from as well. I don't see why the AI couldn't have 2 simultaneous (thoughts?) point of interest -1 being probable trajectory and the other your last absolute known location -and pivot his head between the two. You can clearly see when he rotates to realign his body with his predicted new line o' sight -he leaves himself vulnerable from your location that really never moved.

We need more frequent head turns and faster rotations from the AI.

[Second 0]

Additional info:

KnowsAbout will stay at 4 until the AI hasn't seen you for several minutes, then it will drop. (At least - that's how it should work.) It's the only way for KnowsAbout to drop, there is no way to force it down.

Although the KnowsAbout may be 4, that's not to say he *actually* knows your position, it's just an indication of how certain he is of your position, even though he may be wrong. (Again, at least that's how it's supposed to work).

I haven't checked myself about the KnowsAbout situation in the current A3 builds, but your video seems shows that it seems to be dysfunctional at the moment.

It does fade away after longish time. My guess would be, based on my experiments, something like 5-10 minutes, after that it drops back to 0. But in my test i teleported enemy to over 500 meters away, i don't knoe can distance have effect on target.

However again i must underline the fact that targeting system kept track of enemy only for few seconds after loosing LOS to it. I teleported him first in first location (immediatly after opening fire at my squad and killing one of us), then after about 10 seconds i teleported him into another location. Targeting system still thought him to be in location one (even with knowsabout at 4!). I even revealed him to my SL, but still target system thought him to be in location one... Which is odd, but i think it's been like this from start, reveal only works if AI knows nothing about target of reveal. In my example they already knew he was in location one, so that info was deemed more important that information from reveal. However engage system tracked him into location two where he actually was.

I dunno why it uses two different methods, it would be logical to think that they engage enemies based on target-information on them, but instead there is some other (bugged?) system.

Feck, this brings back memories from ArmA... Makes me sick, i started to hate that game by overanalyzing it's AI and it's flaws.

[2nd ranger 282]

I knew the AI acted dumb but jesus, Nemesis's video really hammers it home. That is a serious problem. It's bad enough that they assume you are continuing in the direction you were moving, but to continue firing at the wall as they track your false progress is ridiculous.