OVER POWERED AI ! Please fix this for final game ruins coop

[NeMeSiS 11]

I knew the AI acted dumb but jesus, Nemesis's video really hammers it home. That is a serious problem. It's bad enough that they assume you are continuing in the direction you were moving, but to continue firing at the wall as they track your false progress is ridiculous.

Well, it is really good when it comes to bushes and other penetrable objects, and when you do the 'up, shoot, down to cover, repeat', you get some really nice suppression effects going. I don't object to the current tracking actually, i just with they would turn faster when they actually spot an enemy again.

I made the video so show that everything works as expected. :p

[chrisb 196]

That is terrible ai, its not really ai at all, its just ‘a’..

Really sad..:(

[dmarkwick 261]

I knew the AI acted dumb but jesus, Nemesis's video really hammers it home. That is a serious problem. It's bad enough that they assume you are continuing in the direction you were moving, but to continue firing at the wall as they track your false progress is ridiculous.

It depends on whether they think the wall is penetrable by their rounds. If they do think that - then I should say the AI is acting well. As for the tracking - again I should say the AI is acting well. I might make the same assumption under some conditions, and I don't expect the AI to be as discerning as a human.

[chortles 263]

The funny thing is... I'm actually reminded of Splinter Cell: Conviction. :lol: The "Last Known Position" 'mechanic' was really just a visual HUD highlighting where you broke line of sight with the AI, but otherwise the enemy AI would nominally attempt to suppress, flank and then close in towards that location, and the "afterimage" outline would go away as soon as they identified you as having left that position.

[old_painless 182]

It depends on whether they think the wall is penetrable by their rounds. If they do think that - then I should say the AI is acting well.

It might very well be that the Arma3 objects are not configured properly regarding penetration properties, could make sense.

But the video by Telkwa above is still highly disturbing: The AI puts down rounds based on Line-of-sight as if the house wasn't there. Perhaps the house isn't, in the eyes of the AI. Could again be a object property ...

[dmarkwick 261]

It might very well be that the Arma3 objects are not configured properly regarding penetration properties, could make sense.

But the video by Telkwa above is still highly disturbing: The AI puts down rounds based on Line-of-sight as if the house wasn't there. Perhaps the house isn't, in the eyes of the AI. Could again be a object property ...

It's more likely a problem with the door geometry. As it's an animated item the fire geometry might not be animating properly into it's closed state. That's what it looks like to me. It might even not have any fire geometry yet.

[old_painless 182]

Oh, hadn't considered that - you mean the door is seen by the AI to be open even though graphically being closed. That is slightly less disturbing, since that could be fixed quite easily

[BiZzR32 10]

Join my server, you won'y be frustarted with AI, I`ve spent countless hours adjusting AI to get good balance bettween game and reality and now it looks good. cheers.

THanks mate ill keep it in mind. However i am Australian . Dont wish to lag up your server ..

---------- Post added at 02:30 ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 ----------

1. FACT = AI CAN see through trees too shoot you . And they spot you also /Track you .

2. The level is to HIGH FACT .. Default level needs to be set more lower in my eyes for regular set mode.

As someone previously mentioned AI have the amazing ability of SNAP turns and 1 shot wonders that no PERSON CAN DO !

[metalcraze 290]

AI doesn't see through trees or walls or doors. If they did you would be spotted and killed right away instead of after killing one of them or making yourself spotted. The issue here is of a completely different kind.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

AI doesn't see through trees or walls or doors. If they did you would be spotted and killed right away instead of after killing one of them or making yourself spotted. The issue here is of a completely different kind.

The AI in Alpha Stable release see through trees - been killed numerous times by LMG firing through half a forrest at me (Multiple layers of tree canopy and they never miss), happened just last night. You frequently hear complaints from other players on VON about it.

[dmarkwick 261]

The AI in Alpha Stable release see through trees - been killed numerous times by LMG firing through half a forrest at me (Multiple layers of tree canopy and they never miss), happened just last night. You frequently hear complaints from other players on VON about it.

I think the issue that Metalcraze describes is that the AI will not initially detect you though objects like trees, walls & fog etc, but that once detected, the AI can track you regardless. If the AI knows it cannot hit you because of fire geometry, it won't fire, but if it can, it will regardless of actual visibility.

So, in your example, trees will hide you initially from detection, but once detected, the trees provide no cover or concealment.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Yes - that's the problem - I may know an AI is behind some trees, but I can't fire because he is concealed and I'm not 100% certain where he is. The AI always seem to know my exact position and fire with 100% accuracy through the trees. I don't know if it is affected by skill/difficulty settings but it's very frustrating that you can't rely on concealment to hide your movements.

[-Coulum- 35]

Ai don't "see" through bushes and trees. The only truly problematic bushes are the ones with lots of wholes in them (don't try hiding behind the little brown bushes). This is because the ai can see through these holes and recognize you - which may not be so bad at 10 metres, but at 100+ its ridiculous. But this is not because they have x ray vision, its because their vision doesn't degrade with distance like ours does - whether one pixel of your head(note ai can't identify feet arms or weapons) is exposed or 500 pixels worth of head is exposed, the ai sees you just as quickly and just as precisely.

As for shooting you when you are behind bushes, I don't mind that assuming the ai saw you run there. The problem is the ai sees everything. If he has identified 100 enemies and they all run behind different bushes simultaneously, the ai knows each and every bush that has a dude behind it. Obviously a human is only able to track 1-3 separate targets depending on their proximity to one another.

Then there's the fact that when the ai engages you behind a bush its pretty accurate fire - not necessarily accurate to where you are, but accurate to where they predict you are. When I shoot at someone behind a bush I am not aiming at a single point but instead try to shoot different areas of the bush. The ai should d the same, or at least their dispersion should be increased when firing at these targets to mimic that behavior.

Lastly, the ai don't seem to give up and move on. If they are focused on you and you run behind a bush they will keep nailing that bush until you're dead. A human might shoot at the bush for a while but then he would move on to other targets, that you can actually see. Note I do see machingunners occasionally spreading their fire, trying to engage multiple enemies at once, but rifle men seem to just hone in on one guy and stick to him even if he leaves their line of sight. They should only do this if there is nobody else that is in their line of sight to engage.

SO, in summary, there are many things to be fixed but some immediate problems I see concerning "ai seeing through objects" are

• Ai vision doesn't degrade other distance like a humans would - all they need is a pixel of your head or body to see you
  
• The Ai is able to track too many targets simultaneously and never "forgets" about enemies he has seen (at least not within a reasonable amount of time)
  
• The Ai shoots to accurately at targets he doesn't have a clear LOS to
  
• The Ai is too focused, and doesn't move on to other easier targets once you leave his LOS and he has put a few suppressing rounds down your way.
  

Edited May 15, 2013 by -Coulum-

[afp 1]

Good points, especially first one. Also, in ArmA 2 the AI was more like putting suppressing rounds in the last seen position, when you were hidding after a corner etc. It was a pretty intense effect. Now they look like shooting through walls directly into you.

[old_painless 182]

Nice summary, Coulum. Hopefully, there are trackers for these issues. On the positive side, it seems that BI has actually touched the AI routines in A3, in stead of not having the guts to do so. There were many stories on how the AI was best left untouched, since the complexity would be too large.

So now it's a matter of providing enough feedback - I would speculate that the AI work intensifies as we go into beta.

-OP

[metalcraze 290]

According to Suma soldier's model isn't taken into account by AI vision calculations at all so "they see a pixel of you you are spotted" is a myth.

So now it's a matter of providing enough feedback - I would speculate that the AI work intensifies as we go into beta.

I hope so. AI is completely broken at the moment. Not only awareness issues are there but AI drivers fail pathfinding completely in the current dev build (and many previous ones too). They will not miss a single lamp post or barrier always crashing the car into everything.

Infantry also gets stuck badly on the bridges now.

Edited May 14, 2013 by metalcraze

[-Coulum- 35]

According to Suma soldier's model isn't taken into account by AI vision calculations at all so "they see a pixel of you you are spotted" is a myth.

hmm, could you explain further how the spotting works and how exposing the tip of your head doesn't expose you to the ai just as easily as exposing your whole upper torso? Maybe "one pixel" isn't the proper way to describe it, but I think it is fair to say that the ai aren't effected by partial concealment - They either see you or they don't and the time it takes to do so is only effected by distance not the amount of body you expose. No? I would appreciate if you elaborated more. How is ai vision calculated if not using the soldier's model?

I hope so. AI is completely broken at the moment. Not only awareness issues are there but AI drivers fail pathfinding completely in the current dev build (and many previous ones too). They will not miss a single lamp post or barrier always crashing the car into everything.

Infantry also gets stuck badly on the bridges now.

ditto. But I don't mind BIS "turning over stones" and possibly messing up the ai. Thats what alpha is for and it going to have to be done sometime.

[froggyluv 2130]

According to Suma soldier's model isn't taken into account by AI vision calculations at all.

:butbut: Then how does the LOS play into this if the model is completely ignored?

[NeMeSiS 11]

Metalcraze is right, we did get told this a while ago. (Some old ArmA2 discussion IIRC)

I am not entirely sure, but either just the torso (and head?) are taken into account, or there is some invisible shape on every infantry unit which is used for LOS calculations and covers roughly that area.

@Coulum, they dont really keep track of where everyone is. As can seen in the video on the previous page or more clearly in

(which also shows there are no 'holes' in bushes as we see them), the linear prediction goes on for a few seconds, whether you came out of the other side of the bush or not. If you didnt came out, the AI doesnt think you are still behind the bush, they just keep tracking you in an open field. After a few seconds they figure out that they are notgoing to spot you again, aim somewhere else and the accuracy value starts to go up, probably indicating that they know you are in the general area, and that their prediction is not accurate, though i am not really sure how that value is used in practice. I suggest you play around with the demomission in the description of the video on the previous page.

EDIT: That is 2 pages ago now. :)

Edited May 14, 2013 by NeMeSiS

[chrisb 196]

BIS: Just allow the ai to be good, its available and I've been using it for some years, why can't standard ai change and compete with modded ?

There is a real danger that A3 will not ever have this type of ai.. That's a real problem, for many players who use this type of ai..

They should be able to do this and much more:

All ai apart from the picture taker (me), just standard ai testing.. I have probably hundreds of these types of pictures, plus bags of videos, but its all modded ai, not standard ai... 'why' ?

http://imageshack.us/a/img197/5572/arma2oa2012090906204296.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img189/3435/arma2oa2012090803043525.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img5/9747/arma2oa2012090803021336.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img838/5650/arma2oa2012090921052358.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img220/7482/arma2oa2012070403503412.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img109/9529/arma2oa2012070404142303.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img215/1770/arma2oa2012062212560083.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img35/6626/arma2oa2012070420234919.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img52/8878/arma2oa2012070420272613.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img846/6158/arma2oa2012070115061816.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img705/2953/arma2oa2012070610362197.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img705/7401/arma2oa2012070404140703.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img685/6921/arma2oa2012070115071564.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img641/4110/arma2oa2012063012545565.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/6647/arma2oa2012071218140690.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img26/1782/arma2oa2012071218161022.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img715/9128/arma2oa2012071218135249.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img819/1268/arma2oa2012083021495595.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/6696/arma2oa2012083012232053.jpg

I don't mind clipping through or passing through objects, never been an issue, can overlook that, provided the ai are good, they can use the environment around them, find good positions as they do now for our group in A2, really good positions..

Its all there, I know the mod makers have left, but surely...

Please..:D

[-Coulum- 35]

I am not entirely sure, but either just the torso (and head?) are taken into account, or there is some invisible shape on every infantry unit which is used for LOS calculations and covers roughly that area.

Yes only torso and head are taken into account. But even if it is not the soldier model being taken into acount, perhaps instead some sort of simplified insvisible skeleton or something, I think that my point still remains - How much of that skeleton/model/pixel/whatever is exposed doesn't make a difference to the ai spotting speed,distance or accuracy (as far as I can tell). Either they can see and identify you or they can't. There is no "he can see you but it will take a long time because only the top of your head is peaking above that rock and is easily mistaken for the rock itself upon first glance."

@Coulum, they dont really keep track of where everyone is. As can seen in the video on the previous page or more clearly in this video(which also shows there are no 'holes' in bushes as we see them), the linear prediction goes on for a few seconds, whether you came out of the other side of the bush or not. If you didnt came out, the AI doesnt think you are still behind the bush, they just keep tracking you in an open field. After a few seconds they figure out that they are notgoing to spot you again, aim somewhere else and the accuracy value starts to go up, probably indicating that they know you are in the general area, and that their prediction is not accurate, though i am not really sure how that value is used in practice. I suggest you play around with the demomission in the description of the video on the previous page.

Yep your right about the focusing on one target only. I confused the ai's "tunnel hearing" for tunnel vision. The ai is actually quite good at moving on to the next target. But once they are focused they ignore sounds. You can be right behind them and fire an entire clip, even hit him in the leg, but if he is focusing on an enemy, even one out of sight, he will not turn to check out what all the gunfire is.

As for memory loss, and "volume", I don't think your video is enough to say that ai automatically forget all about you after you leave their line of sight for more than ten seconds or so. And I also think that if you set up 20 different players and had them all run into cover the ai would predict the location that all the enemies are going, not just one or two, which would be near impossible for a human to do. You may have a point, that there is some degree of memory loss, But I still think that the ai is pretty inhuman when concerning information retention, and the amount of info they can "record" at once. I could be wrong though. If I get time tomorrow I will test using your script and report back.

And yes the holse in bushes are not exploitable by the ai any longer it seems. My ai tests were along time ago (.52 or so) and they could see through the gaps - but upon playing today I have yet to find a bush that doesn't completely block LOS - which is good for long-range but possible bad for close range ai.

Edited May 15, 2013 by -Coulum-

[NeMeSiS 11]

Yes only torso and head are taken into account. But even if it is not the soldier model being taken into acount, perhaps instead some sort of simplified insvisible skeleton or something, I think that my point still remains - How much of that skeleton/model/pixel/whatever is exposed doesn't make a difference to the ai spotting speed,distance or accuracy (as far as I can tell). Either they can see and identify you or they can't. There is no "he can see you but it will take a long time because only the top of your head is peaking above that rock and is easily mistaken for the rock itself upon first glance."

True, but ive never seen at as much of a problem, especially when you can have a whole arm or leg sticking out first. I never really feel like i am being targetted unfairly, or that i can take advantage of a blind AI, though it could be improved.

Yep your right about the focusing on one target only. I confused the ai's "tunnel hearing" for tunnel vision. The ai is actually quite good at moving on to the next target. But once they are focused they ignore sounds. You can be right behind them and fire an entire clip, even hit him in the leg, but if he is focusing on an enemy, even one out of sight, he will not turn to check out what all the gunfire is.

As for memory loss, and "volume", I don't think your video is enough to say that ai automatically forget all about you after you leave their line of sight for more than ten seconds or so. And I also think that if you set up 20 different players and had them all run into cover the ai would predict the location that all the enemies are going, not just one or two, which would be near impossible for a human to do. You may have a point, that there is some degree of memory loss, But I still think that the ai is pretty inhuman when concerning information retention, and the amount of info they can "record" at once. I could be wrong though. If I get time tomorrow I will test using your script and report back.

Well, those videos werent made with 'ai forgetting skills' in mind, they pretty much only show their tracking and 'not seeing through stuff' skills. :p

You have a point that humans are not able to track so many enemies at once, but the tracking is pretty vague so i dont think it matters all that much in the end. I do wonder how the 'accuracy' value is used, as it goes up when the AI notices they have lost track of the target, and seems to imply some kind of knowledge that enemies can be in the general area and they are not sure where exactly, which is interesting but not something that is noticeable during gameplay.

And yes the holse in bushes are not exploitable by the ai any longer it seems. My ai tests were along time ago (.52 or so) and they could see through the gaps - but upon playing today I have yet to find a bush that doesn't completely block LOS - which is good for long-range but possible bad for close range ai.

Bushes have pretty much always been like this (except for the ones who didnt block anything at all, like some reed kind of thing iirc)

Overall i think that these things could be refined, but wouldnt be noticed all that much in general gameplay, and i would prefer to see other things being focused on, like proper use of buildings, AI turning speed when the enemy is close, and improved config settings.

[metalcraze 290]

There is no "he can see you but it will take a long time because only the top of your head is peaking above that rock and is easily mistaken for the rock itself upon first glance."

Something like this is going on with AI. Remember that AI has an easier chance of spotting an enemy the faster an enemy moves and the higher enemy's profile is. Not only that but depending on AI skill there's also a varied spotting time. So basically an enemy needs to move at speed X (turning the body is also taken into account iirc) for Y seconds to get spotted. Depends on the distance and stance as well.

So sitting down without moving in a view of AI with rock concealing most of you will produce the effect you want. Plus there's also another interesting thing coming from this.

I was making a night mission once where you needed to sneak past patrols in the forest to reach the objective. What I've noticed is that if you will constantly run they will spot you (which is logical duh) but if you will do short bounding from tree to tree with stopping for a few seconds after each run - you will sneak in undetected. This seems to be quite a realistic result.

Kinda like "oh I think I've spotted some movement in the corner of my eye... Mmm looks like it was just a bush"

[maturin 12]

:butbut: Then how does the LOS play into this if the model is completely ignored?

A LOS check draws a single line by definition. So there are probably only a handful of points that the AI looks at, probably one in your central chest and one in your head. Imagine if the game had to draw lines from the AI's head to every single poly of the target's model.

[froggyluv 2130]

A LOS check draws a single line by definition. So there are probably only a handful of points that the AI looks at, probably one in your central chest and one in your head. Imagine if the game had to draw lines from the AI's head to every single poly of the target's model.

Really? Wow, I would think that there is a way to let a ray/line whatever detect an entire model rather than needing singular point targets. Or at least the amount of body parts that are allocated for bullet hit detection.Than again, I know next to nothing on the subject.