Not liking the new Fatigue system - Jogging should not be penalised

[katipo66 94]

key word "hours", not minutes...

You can very easily achieve the same effect with speed skipping in a few minutes, especially with sweat suit on and heavy rope... but again its not a human body simulator, its a game.

The point is for me at least, i get the connection with the slight blur and burning of edges effect after my character has completely spent his sprint range and continues to jog, probably needs tweaking a bit more but i like the direction, different strokes for different folks :)

Edited May 16, 2013 by Katipo66

[jw custom 56]

I have nothing against the effects themself but they kick in way too fast just jogging.

[Wolfstriked 11]

You feel like crap running fully geared out.Its painful and overall you quickly get wasted out which makes you start to feel worse and worse.Basically its annoying as hell in reality.Then maybe this blur effect can happen while running but only when you go past a certain load.It will make the Rambos feel annoyed and thats perfect as in reality its annoying to have to carry all that gear.More sway,blurring screens longer times to get anywhere and no regen to gain a slight sprint for emergencies and I would stay light.

[Kemeros 1]

I'm ok to have side effects because i sprint... but the heaving breaths and the halos in the screen when i jog are getting old very quickly.

[Second 0]

You feel like crap running fully geared out.Its painful and overall you quickly get wasted out which makes you start to feel worse and worse.Basically its annoying as hell in reality.Then maybe this blur effect can happen while running but only when you go past a certain load.It will make the Rambos feel annoyed and thats perfect as in reality its annoying to have to carry all that gear.More sway,blurring screens longer times to get anywhere and no regen to gain a slight sprint for emergencies and I would stay light.

Soldiers are got used to carrying heavy loads, so weight doesn't matter on it self. I have "run" (=jog) with 40 kg of gear, but i had hauled it already for months so it didn't feel that bad. Lactic acids does. Running with out gear sucks as much, only speed in greater but lactic acids does come in in same way and cause same amount of burn in body and lack of oxygen, eventually shutting body down. Jogging in comfort zone isn't nearly as unpleasant and that is why people like to stick in there, and they can stick in there for hours if need be. This is why people generally don't tire them selves up in combat exercises (or in combat) to max like they would do in in sports, and even there these kind of exercises demands lots of dedication and willpower. In Military there can be things like dashes from cover to cover, but there are usually good amount of time to recover from each dash. Then there are panic situations, where one tries to flee from pursuing enemies or escape from MG's beaten zone or something like that, in here soldiers will push against their comfort zone simply because their existence relies to it.

I know maybe 0.1% of our valiant internetz warriors are aware of what lactic acids are and what they cause, how they occury etc etc etc. But this is why i think jogging should be easy effort with little to none fatigue effect because lactic acids doesn't rise up but remains steady state, while hitting sprint button starts to strongly increase fatigue (=lactic acids) eventually slowing soldier down and making him combat ineffective for tens of seconds or even minute(s). In RO2 for instance it's advisable to not to sprint into maximal fatigue as it demands lots of time to recover and ability to hit with fire is severely reduced for long time, so advanced players commonly tries to keep fatigue from maxing. I think in real life terms it worked well.

Maximal amount of time one should be able to sprint? I'd say around 30-60 seconds. More logical and realistic would be 2 minutes as that is amount of time human can spent on Vo2max, but for gameplay reasons balancing can be problem as then recovery paces should be long (up to 5-10 minutes) and such time is utter hell (if freaks me out how everyone markets HIIT in fitness indusrty, as if people would actually be able to do it effectively!). And one can't repeat that often, usually not more than once. I think with 30 seconds of sprint one should spent recovering from it for about 2 minutes. But he should be able to sprint as often as he likes. In real life even those sprints should be limited to about 10-15 (and that for well fit athlete) after which ability to sprint should be taken away and fatigue levels simply doesn't rise up as body is bathing in lactic acids, but it sucks balls how that would slow game down.

So what i'm saying is that fatigue should not be affected by weight... Movement speed should affected by weight. person weighting 100 kg will run marathon (or 1500 meters) just as 50 kg person would. But he would be much slower. Even if their aerobic and anaerobic fitness levels are similar -> weight reduces speed, not amount of time one can move.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Second

[ratszo 17]

PvP, the main point is not how far you run, but how much you carry.

In Arma2, can carry heavy anywhere just like light infantry. So, there's no light infantry; no advantage to a light loadout.

Big part of why armour assets get pawnt in a2 is 'cause light infantry get to bring at/rpg with a butt load of rockets.

Worst part about Arma infantry is the absurd amount of firepower carried.

[Second 0]

PvP, the main point is not how far you run, but how much you carry.

In Arma2, can carry heavy anywhere just like light infantry. So, there's no light infantry; no advantage to a light loadout.

Big part of why armour assets get pawnt in a2 is 'cause light infantry get to bring at/rpg with a butt load of rockets.

Worst part about Arma infantry is the absurd amount of firepower carried.

And this works wonders in RO2. I refuse to pick up semiautomatic rifle, or SMG, as a antitank soldier (carrying AT-rifle, pistol, couple AT-grenades) because of the fact that it will make me slower, even if it means that against infantry i'm underdog. If i need to assault tank from close distance i will rid myself from everything but pistol and AT-grenades/mines, because it makes me move much faster. Heck in MP i rarely see blokes carrying more than what they class gives them: primary firearm, possibly pistol, grenades.

[PN11A 2]

Soldiers are got used to carrying heavy loads, so weight doesn't matter on it self. I have "run" (=jog) with 40 kg of gear, but i had hauled it already for months so it didn't feel that bad. Lactic acids does. Running with out gear sucks as much, only speed in greater but lactic acids does come in in same way and cause same amount of burn in body and lack of oxygen, eventually shutting body down. Jogging in comfort zone isn't nearly as unpleasant and that is why people like to stick in there, and they can stick in there for hours if need be. This is why people generally don't tire them selves up in combat exercises (or in combat) to max like they would do in in sports, and even there these kind of exercises demands lots of dedication and willpower. In Military there can be things like dashes from cover to cover, but there are usually good amount of time to recover from each dash. Then there are panic situations, where one tries to flee from pursuing enemies or escape from MG's beaten zone or something like that, in here soldiers will push against their comfort zone simply because their existence relies to it.

I know maybe 0.1% of our valiant internetz warriors are aware of what lactic acids are and what they cause, how they occury etc etc etc. But this is why i think jogging should be easy effort with little to none fatigue effect because lactic acids doesn't rise up but remains steady state, while hitting sprint button starts to strongly increase fatigue (=lactic acids) eventually slowing soldier down and making him combat ineffective for tens of seconds or even minute(s). In RO2 for instance it's advisable to not to sprint into maximal fatigue as it demands lots of time to recover and ability to hit with fire is severely reduced for long time, so advanced players commonly tries to keep fatigue from maxing. I think in real life terms it worked well.

Maximal amount of time one should be able to sprint? I'd say around 30-60 seconds. More logical and realistic would be 2 minutes as that is amount of time human can spent on Vo2max, but for gameplay reasons balancing can be problem as then recovery paces should be long (up to 5-10 minutes) and such time is utter hell (if freaks me out how everyone markets HIIT in fitness indusrty, as if people would actually be able to do it effectively!). And one can't repeat that often, usually not more than once. I think with 30 seconds of sprint one should spent recovering from it for about 2 minutes. But he should be able to sprint as often as he likes. In real life even those sprints should be limited to about 10-15 (and that for well fit athlete) after which ability to sprint should be taken away and fatigue levels simply doesn't rise up as body is bathing in lactic acids, but it sucks balls how that would slow game down.

So what i'm saying is that fatigue should not be affected by weight... Movement speed should affected by weight. person weighting 100 kg will run marathon (or 1500 meters) just as 50 kg person would. But he would be much slower. Even if their aerobic and anaerobic fitness levels are similar -> weight reduces speed, not amount of time one can move.

This is an awesome post.

[nodunit 397]

PvP, the main point is not how far you run, but how much you carry.

In Arma2, can carry heavy anywhere just like light infantry. So, there's no light infantry; no advantage to a light loadout.

Big part of why armour assets get pawnt in a2 is 'cause light infantry get to bring at/rpg with a butt load of rockets.

Worst part about Arma infantry is the absurd amount of firepower carried.

While true that infantry can carry a great deal of firepower, please do not mistake the weakness of armor versus infantry to be based on what they can currently carry, that is more the fault of their very armor being ineffective.

[bad benson 1733]

So what i'm saying is that fatigue should not be affected by weight... Movement speed should affected by weight. person weighting 100 kg will run marathon (or 1500 meters) just as 50 kg person would. But he would be much slower. Even if their aerobic and anaerobic fitness levels are similar -> weight reduces speed, not amount of time one can move.

that makes a lot of sense. good suggestions. i get what you mean about sprinting. although i think that weight does have an impact on fatigue. it's simple logic. you get more fatigued if you muscles have to withstand more weight dragging it down. i know soldiers are trained and all that but saying that a soldier without full gear would be as fatigued as one with full gear after going the same distance just doesn't make any sense at all. maybe the impact isn't as big as portrayed in the game right now but it's there for sure, trained or not trained.

but i get that it's more complex. the more weight you carry the more your body will be occupied with the weight and the less speed you will be able to produce. you won't be able to reach your limit of o2 production and get fully fatigued due to an over production of lactic acid.

i think the problem is that only one value is taking care of both aspects at the moment. while weight would influence long term fatigue, sprinting for too long would cause short term fatigue. they are not the same thing but it's a game and using one value is easier i guess.

[Second 0]

But i take approach that fatigue == lactic acids. Old endurance saying fits well here: Speed kills, not distance. Always. Lighter person will be more exhausted if he fails to control his tempo.

I think stamina (as if glycogen stores in body) is out of game's scope, on comfort zone they would last from aprox. 1:30-2:00 hours. And they can easily be filled with sports drinks and energy bars. Also body's wear and tear from carrying lots of weight is more question of days, weeks, months. It's is very common for people not to understand what amounts of effort they can endure if they need.

but i get that it's more complex. the more weight you carry the more your body will be occupied with the weight and the less speed you will be able to produce. you won't be able to reach your limit of o2 production and get fully fatigued due to an over production of lactic acid.

Yes relative to distance heavier person has to apply more strength than lighter one. But i'm not sure if distance is proper measurement unit in ArmA for this thing, because when it comes to energy reserves and how body utilizes them it's more about time. Those in the end are pretty similar to all people. Distance can vary greatly from person to person, but time is pretty constant thing. 2 minutes in Vo2max means that any person will shut down, distance can be anything from 300-800 meters.

Lactic acids and Vo2max are solidly interlinked, they practically are the same. It doesn't matter what the weight is, it's matter of how much power one generates. And i mean this in context of time, in context of distance it's different, but as i explained i think ArmA should be looked from context of time. So: With more weight and equal power speed is reduced. If heavier person ends up trying to keep up with lighter person he will end up using more power, so then he will have increasing lactic acids which eventually will shut him down. Then again for example dedicated AT-specialists usually have better power output as they generally train with more weight on their shoulders... So basically AT-specialist can maintain slightly higher power output than rifleman on average. But that gets too complicated in my mind.

Or something, i'm not saying that i don't agree with you, because on context of distance you are right, heavier person has to utilize more strength/energy to cross that same distance as light person. Does he then take them from fat reserves or from glycogen aerobically or anaerobically is another thing. How he's muscle/strength endurance lasts with extreme weights? (well it should with anything under 50-60% of bodyweight)... To be honest i don't care, just thought to bring up some facts in my previous post.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Second

[metalcraze 290]

While true that infantry can carry a great deal of firepower, please do not mistake the weakness of armor versus infantry to be based on what they can currently carry, that is more the fault of their very armor being ineffective.

Find me an effective armor vs. dudes currently being able to run indefinitely around with a launcher and a bunch of rockets in ArmA3 without any weight obstacles apart from very forgiving/almost nonexistent item limit.

At least in A2 you couldn't carry a backpack and a rocket launcher at the same time so you needed someone else to carry your rockets.

Blurred vision won't stop NLAW spam.

Edited May 19, 2013 by metalcraze

[afp 1]

There is a very interesting discussion here, I want to mention one more aspect too.

ArmA tries to simulate reality but because of objective reasons, it fails in one area: while most of game elements are more or less closer to reality, distances are not real. You don't climb a mountain in half minute, the real cities are not 2 minutes walk far from each other, a city doesn't have 10 buildings etc. Everything is scaled to fit the gameplay. Otherwise, the time and actions are 1:1 to the real world, a gunfight really takes take several minutes, bodies animations have real speed etc.

Scaling fatigue effects to the game distances is abnormal from timing point of view. It may look normal to get tired after climbing a mountain in less then 2 minutes, still it's not normal because the time and actions are scaled 1:1 to real world and this feels way too short.... Some people may involuntary report the fatigue to distances, which may be inaccurate for other people from timing point of view.

Edited May 19, 2013 by afp

[metalcraze 290]

You can't climb a mountain in half minute

You couldn't in OFP/A1/A2 either. But thankfully due to streamlining and accessibility in ArmA3 you can now. No slope limits for humans yet they are still present for AI so they will constantly fall back the moment you encounter any kind of a hill, even a small one.

[afp 1]

You didn't get it, please read again. I was talking about real climbing. In real you climb a hill in one hour while you do this in game in half minute. Sorry, it may be my bad English too.

[bad benson 1733]

@Second: in general i totally agree with you but you just can't take weight induced long term fatigue totally out of the equation just because the game doesn't last days. i think your overall definition of fatigue fits more the term of exhaustion and not fatigue. fatigue is a more general thing. could be wrong though i'm no native english speaker. since it's a game though, it's more like a balance thing. i know the visual and audio effects fit more exhaustion but i think BI is still trying to model general fatigue and use it for balancing.

i think different movement speeds for different loads would be awesome but i don't think it's in the scope of the devs knowing how you can't just scale anim speeds in game in real time right now. but then again they are the devs, they have the source code, they could do it.

besides movement speeds i think the key to making it more believable could be making weight not influence jogging as fast as it does now. and keep the penalty on sprinting very high because that's just simply realistic and feels right, to me at least. and it would represent this

If heavier person ends up trying to keep up with lighter person he will end up using more power, so then he will have increasing lactic acids which eventually will shut him down.

and for visual and audio effects. blur should be removed but black at the edge of the screen is ok. the breathing should be only very hard when you are 100% fatigued and before that it should be there but more subtle and quiet so it's more like an added feedback sound for movement like gear sounds and not only a loud indicator for you being fatigued.

No slope limits for humans yet

in the dev build you'll get exhausted really fast when running up a hill. really fast. also pretty sure it was in some changelog. i find that better then being forced to walk under fire like in arma 2. it's just annoying.

overload yourself and run up a hill. you will be 100% fatigued after like 10-20m. it's really good in my opinion.

[Second 0]

i think your overall definition of fatigue fits more the term of exhaustion and not fatigue.

Could be, i'm not natural english speaker myself either. I don't disagree with any of your points, it's matter of point of view and opinion.

[Wolfstriked 11]

IMO reality is better than artificial limits in a game.In real life you can carry an AT,few missiles in backpack along with normal soldier gear.Reason soldiers don't is that its hard.So allow it but just make it annoying and in no way is some blurring enough to annoy players away.

Forced to walk when fatigue goes beyond certain amount.

Blurring when super fatigued

Slower regain of stamina across the board

Walking and blurring alot is enough to deter me.

[PN11A 2]

Here second Ill help explain what I believe Benson is saying. Think about a ruck march. The objective is to cover a certain distance within a given time frame. If weight did not have an impact on long term fatigue in general I should be able to walk with an 80lbs pack at the same pace for x distance. However those of us who have rucked know that this isnt true. On the 6th mile of a 12 mile march you will not have the same amount of energy as you did beginning the march. Without replacing those stores of carbs, you will burn through your supply and eventually hit a wall.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Weight causes faster fatigue so lets debate how much fatigue it should cause and stop bringing too much reality into a game that has a single fatigue meter.Talking of carbs,glycogen reserves etc is not good and just confuses many people and causes me to wonder whats next.....ATP,ketones etc?:rolleyes:

[Second 0]

Here second Ill help explain what I believe Benson is saying. Think about a ruck march. The objective is to cover a certain distance within a given time frame. If weight did not have an impact on long term fatigue in general I should be able to walk with an 80lbs pack at the same pace for x distance. However those of us who have rucked know that this isnt true. On the 6th mile of a 12 mile march you will not have the same amount of energy as you did beginning the march. Without replacing those stores of carbs, you will burn through your supply and eventually hit a wall.

I'm not saying that weight doesn't add to fatigue, it reduces speed. So same power output with heavier weight generates less speed. Thus to maintain same speed more power is needed to generate -> more fatigue. Weight it self doesn't add up fatigue, light guy can be just as spent if he fails in maintain optimal pace. But i take stance of looking at this from perspective of time. If heavier guy travels same time (but shorter distance) than lighter guy then amount of energy used is equal. Ofcourse if they have to travel same distance then heavier guy uses longer time, or increases his pace. So in that perspective he uses more energy. But again every human being, advanced athletes who have worked hard for years excluded, has pretty solid border lines how long he can move on Vo2max, aerobic or anaerobic threshold. So in this sense distance is irrelevant, as one chooses appropriate pace relative to estimated time he needs to cross distance. 5km runner has to know how long it takes him to run it to determe how close to Vo2max he can go, same goes for 10km and so on. In marathons this is quite obvilious as top runners run close to their anaerobic threshold, while common joggers jogs it closer to their aerobic threshold. That because top runners runs it in less than 2:30 hours, while joggers spent easily over 4 hours. Joggers aren't more exhausted, (generally even less exhausted) because they use different energy path ways. Top runners can rely much more on glycogen, while joggers has to utilize much more their fat reserves because they don't (=can't) run with as high heart rates as top runners does. Thus energy pathways and optimal pace are chosen relative to time.

Typically from physical and even mental aspect soldiers (with poorish physical fitness) like more about combat exercises than forced marches, because in combat exercises they can keep on comfort zone (dash slightly slower to maintain low lactic acid levels, rest longer to reduce lactic acids). Poorish physical fitness doesn't easily show up in here. But in marches one can't do such thing, as one has to keep formation. So he has to move faster than his own personal (optimal) pace would be which forces him to use more glycogen and less fats, which eventually can lead into depleting glycogen stores and that's when the trouble starts. Ultrarunners can take lots of time to improve their body's capacity to use fats effectively as fuel because they have to be able to run for days in a row (well they might take couple hour long naps during nights!), but regular joes have got used to take energy form glycogen during exercise.

Thing with carbs is that any (intelligent&experienced) soldier should know to carry additional energy with them. But yes, possibility to run out of glycogen is possible and then one has to rely solely on fat reserves and then movement gets slow. It's matter of how deeply one wants to simulate this.

I know, i could be looking this thing from solely wrong perspective. It surely seems that way.

EDIT: Oh and one more thing. I advocate that speed (not fatigue) should be affected by weight carried, jog is on aerobic threshold all times and can be kept up seemingly forever (well multiple hours atleast in row), sprint is done at Vo2max or little above it. That can be one thing which makes me seem sort of ignorant to other people's posts and point of view. If speed should be same to all, then things change and fatigue should base on weight. Which i my mind doesn't produce as good results, but as i said i'm ignorant.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Second

[Wolfstriked 11]

Is speed even modeled?I seem to be faster than guys who are heavily loaded but my game has so many lag issues and fps slowdowns I don't know what to think.

[nodunit 397]

Find me an effective armor vs. dudes currently being able to run indefinitely around with a launcher and a bunch of rockets in ArmA3 without any weight obstacles apart from very forgiving/almost nonexistent item limit.

At least in A2 you couldn't carry a backpack and a rocket launcher at the same time so you needed someone else to carry your rockets.

Blurred vision won't stop NLAW spam.

Well considering we don't have armor I don't I would be able to, I'm just going by A1-A2 experiences wherein even the thickest armored part of tank takes 3 hits and it's done for.

A fault of it relying so much on the HP system, rendering any armor moot.

But that is discussion moreso for the beta and I do not wish to drag the topic off any more than I already might have, when tanks arrive then we can discuss infantry versus armor all day :).

[PN11A 2]

I'm not saying that weight doesn't add to fatigue, it reduces speed. So same power output with heavier weight generates less speed. Thus to maintain same speed more power is needed to generate -> more fatigue. Weight it self doesn't add up fatigue, light guy can be just as spent if he fails in maintain optimal pace. But i take stance of looking at this from perspective of time. If heavier guy travels same time (but shorter distance) than lighter guy then amount of energy used is equal. Ofcourse if they have to travel same distance then heavier guy uses longer time, or increases his pace. So in that perspective he uses more energy. But again every human being, advanced athletes who have worked hard for years excluded, has pretty solid border lines how long he can move on Vo2max, aerobic or anaerobic threshold. So in this sense distance is irrelevant, as one chooses appropriate pace relative to estimated time he needs to cross distance. 5km runner has to know how long it takes him to run it to determe how close to Vo2max he can go, same goes for 10km and so on. In marathons this is quite obvilious as top runners run close to their anaerobic threshold, while common joggers jogs it closer to their aerobic threshold. That because top runners runs it in less than 2:30 hours, while joggers spent easily over 4 hours. Joggers aren't more exhausted, (generally even less exhausted) because they use different energy path ways. Top runners can rely much more on glycogen, while joggers has to utilize much more their fat reserves because they don't (=can't) run with as high heart rates as top runners does. Thus energy pathways and optimal pace are chosen relative to time.

Typically from physical and even mental aspect soldiers (with poorish physical fitness) like more about combat exercises than forced marches, because in combat exercises they can keep on comfort zone (dash slightly slower to maintain low lactic acid levels, rest longer to reduce lactic acids). Poorish physical fitness doesn't easily show up in here. But in marches one can't do such thing, as one has to keep formation. So he has to move faster than his own personal (optimal) pace would be which forces him to use more glycogen and less fats, which eventually can lead into depleting glycogen stores and that's when the trouble starts. Ultrarunners can take lots of time to improve their body's capacity to use fats effectively as fuel because they have to be able to run for days in a row (well they might take couple hour long naps during nights!), but regular joes have got used to take energy form glycogen during exercise.

Thing with carbs is that any (intelligent&experienced) soldier should know to carry additional energy with them. But yes, possibility to run out of glycogen is possible and then one has to rely solely on fat reserves and then movement gets slow. It's matter of how deeply one wants to simulate this.

I know, i could be looking this thing from solely wrong perspective. It surely seems that way.

EDIT: Oh and one more thing. I advocate that speed (not fatigue) should be affected by weight carried, jog is on aerobic threshold all times and can be kept up seemingly forever (well multiple hours atleast in row), sprint is done at Vo2max or little above it. That can be one thing which makes me seem sort of ignorant to other people's posts and point of view. If speed should be same to all, then things change and fatigue should base on weight. Which i my mind doesn't produce as good results, but as i said i'm ignorant.

You may have just help me increase my ruck time! If I can get my body into a state where it utilizes fat stores instead of sugar then I maybe able to make that jump to long distance movements..

[Jex 1]

Another fine example of how attempting to emulate real life TOO much will simply end up being more annoying than gratifying to most gamers. So what, now I'm expected to have to WALK a kilometer? Who has the time for this, honestly. Sorry but I tend to agree with the OP in cases like this.

Don't understand why the devs love to listen to the top 200-300 hardcore players when instead they should be hiring local focus groups who never played the game before. Realism is one thing but reality is another... it's as if they're trying to shoot themselves in the foot...nobody I know wants to play this anymore :-(

Maybe they need to make 2 versions...1 for the hardcore fans who have the time to play 20 hours a week...and another more fun version for the rest of us, heh.

Couldn't agree more. It's a game, not real life. If it's meant to be rl then you might as well scrap the whole game because nothing in it is realistic - wait you can't move and switch ur pistol? Ur body gets taken over in weird animations? You don't need to eat or drink? Vehicle physics isn't actually physics? You can take multiple shots and patch them all up with a band aid?

But you must fall to the ground after jogging 500M (even though the Royal Marines Yomped 26 miles with no issues in the Falklands wars...)

---------- Post added at 14:43 ---------- Previous post was at 14:25 ----------

The most famous yomp of recent times was during the 1982 Falklands War. After disembarking from ships at San Carlos on East Falkland, on 21 May 1982, Royal Marines and members of the Parachute Regiment yomped (and tabbed) with their equipment across the islands, covering 56 miles (90 km)[2] in three days carrying 80 pounds (36 kg)[3] loads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yomp