6.5 mm and recoil management in game

[oldy41 61]

You all did a great job in discussing the mechanics and ballistics and physiology and training and psychology and tautologies of small arms battle, and I am pretty sure I can not add anything to that.

(The only assault rifle I ever used in rl was the good old HK G3 on the firing range in very controlled conditions. This was 30 years ago and maybe my memories have faded, but I am pretty sure it never felt such frustrating as the weapon handling in A3 currently does.)

ArmA is a game and it should be fun to play it, not hard work.

The series has been my favourite computer game since the days of OFP. I always loved how difficult the game is, where a single wrong decision might cost your virtual life.

But still it should be _fun_ to master the games difficulties. And having to struggle with your mouse to hit an enemy over a medium distance is _no fun_.

IIRC ArmA and A2 both experienced significant tuning to the recoil configs after their first releases by both BI and talented modders so there is still hope :-)

[-Coulum- 35]

Between 150-300m there is a massive punch to the bluefor weapons compared to opfor. It honestly feels night and day the difference between the two sides.

Hmmm I just tested at 300 metres and I have to say I still don't see a difference (between the two standard rifles). I will try to post a vid when I get time comparing the two. Keep in mind that there is always a random factor affecting recoil. So sometimes blufor my seem more than opfor but then again sometimes opfor will seem more then blufor. Overall I think they average at around the same. If you're able, can you post a vid showing the difference you see?

You all did a great job in discussing the mechanics and ballistics and physiology and training and psychology and tautologies of small arms battle, and I am pretty sure I can not add anything to that.

(The only assault rifle I ever used in rl was the good old HK G3 on the firing range in very controlled conditions. This was 30 years ago and maybe my memories have faded, but I am pretty sure it never felt such frustrating as the weapon handling in A3 currently does.)

ArmA is a game and it should be fun to play it, not hard work.

The series has been my favourite computer game since the days of OFP. I always loved how difficult the game is, where a single wrong decision might cost your virtual life.

But still it should be _fun_ to master the games difficulties. And having to struggle with your mouse to hit an enemy over a medium distance is _no fun_.

IIRC ArmA and A2 both experienced significant tuning to the recoil configs after their first releases by both BI and talented modders so there is still hope :-)

Some people don't think that being able to simply point and click to hit is fun though. For me, I find it really diminishes the neccessity for tactics when you can sit on a hill 500 metres away and plink away at targets with ease. I like to have to maneuvre in close in order to destroy the enemy. So although having to struggle with your mouse may not be fun for you it definitely is fun for some.

[ghostnineone 10]

.

By the way, if you want to get a feel for what recoil would feel like at 50%, 75% etc. you can type this setunitrecoilcoefficient x, in the players init, where x is the number you want to multiply the recoil by.

god dammit, how the hell do people manage shooting like that?

also the recoil thing, is 50% 50 less than current or 50 more?

[Tonci87 163]

god dammit, how the hell do people manage shooting like that?

also the recoil thing, is 50% 50 less than current or 50 more?

I think it depends on the mouse he is using...

[BigMorgan 11]

I think it depends on the mouse he is using...

A dedicated first-person-shooter mouse helps immensely. Having a bazillion buttons can be tempting in a game with this many controls but accuracy is essential. I use a Zowie AM but there are a number of mice like it on the market that focus purely on accuracy.

[DavidCastle 1]

Here is my honest humble opinion on the 6.5 rounds.

They try to bridge the gap between 5.56 and 7.62, but for the obvious reason of being neither perform neither of the tasks of those rounds as well as those rounds. THe 7.62 will pretty much always put someone down in 1 shot. The 6.5 tend to do it close range most of the time, though there have been some times where I have had to put 2-3 in a person to get them down. There may have been many variables such as shot placement ect. Which brings me to my main point of why I enjoy 5.56 and 7.62 better.

The 7.62 is pretty much consistently a 1 shot drop center mass at even 800 meters. The 5.56 though it usually always takes a double tap, unless you get a good shot close up, is kind in it's ability to have followup shots.

I hear many people saying that it "doesn't matter because if your a good aim you can just hit people". That is fine, I do quit fine when I can sit a decent distance away and wait for a target to stop moving. The problem is that with 6.5, if I have moved recently, or if a target is moving I may only have a small window of opportunity to put some rounds downrange and I would like to have the ability to have as small a grouping as possible with a burst. 6.5 does not allow for this unless prone which my cause my view to be obstructed in first person. (When I join Serious TvT's they always usually are first person only). Also situation sometimes only permits me to stand or crouch to be able to see over/past an obstacle.

So in the end, it's just my personal agenda against the 6.5. Some may like it. If it DOES have pros, it is the fact that you get a more powerful round than 5.56 with a more manageable recoil than 7.62. So for those that like to time their shots, but want something with a little more rounds per magazine, and the ability to suppress semi accurately, 6.5 is your round.

[-Coulum- 35]

god dammit, how the hell do people manage shooting like that?

Yeah I was pretty amazed how easily he shoots. I think it just takes time. When I first tried the alpha I found the recoil to be totally disorienting and difficult to control because I was so used to arma 2 recoil. Now, only a few days later and I am finding it not that bad really. It just requires a bit more involvement and concentration than arma 2. This is why I like it.

also the recoil thing, is 50% 50 less than current or 50 more?

When I say 50% I mean 50% of the current recoil. So half as strong as currently. Some people were saying that they would like the recoil to be 50% of what it is now. If one wanted to test exactly what that felt like they simple need to go into the editor, type this setunitrecoilcoefficient .5 into the init of the player and preview.

A dedicated first-person-shooter mouse helps immensely. Having a bazillion buttons can be tempting in a game with this many controls but accuracy is essential. I use a Zowie AM but there are a number of mice like it on the market that focus purely on accuracy.

I am considering getting one just for the buttons. But do they really help in terms of accuracy and control. I don't think my eye mouse coordination would even be good enough to take advantage of the increased precision.

[-=Grunt=- 10]

The recoil at the moment seems pretty easy to handle. Just gotta pull the mouse down a bit while firing to compensate, takes a bit of practice for people who don't really play a lot of FPS games but the player will eventually feel comfortable. I kinda like it that I'm the one that's supposed to compensate for the recoil.

At about 300 meters, sure, it's just single shots but you're not really supposed to full auto at that range. (Unless you've got an LMG I guess)

[ratszo 17]

Finally got to play some TvT today. Very pleased with the 6.5mm, seemed like, 1 shot one kill, on center mass. Ragdoll showed nice hit response, quite natural.

Smooth recoil on single shot.

Scoped, tight and flat out to 300m, as a .270cal type round should be.

The full-auto LMG recoil prone is ..., not so good. Even two-shot bursts sends the second round way high off target.

Single-shot is how i'm shooting.

[-Coulum- 35]

Finally got to play some TvT today. Very pleased with the 6.5mm, seemed like, 1 shot one kill, on center mass. Ragdoll showed nice hit response, quite natural.

Smooth recoil on single shot.

Scoped, tight and flat out to 300m, as a .270cal type round should be.

The full-auto LMG recoil prone is ..., not so good. Even two-shot bursts sends the second round way high off target.

Single-shot is how i'm shooting.

I think there is a real need for bipods when it comes to shooting automatic at range. But Why are you using single shot. Isn't your purpose as the LMG to provide wall of fire to lay down on the enemy? It doesn't have to be accurate, just intimidating.

[4 IN 1 0]

I never said it felt natural. I just said it wasn't that bad. Please suggest a way that does feel "natural". I personally can't think of one. I think dragging the mouse down is good enough.

Newtonian physics anyone? In any case, the recoil should focus more on delivering the force backward instead of focusing upward, due to the way the pistol grip work, once the backward force is delivered, a part of that force will transform into upward motion due to lesser resistance on the upper side, this is where your support arms tension comes to play, the tension of your arm will naturally pull the barrel back down to somewhere close to to the original point of aim (in fact sometime you will ended up pointing under the original point of aim), all in all, recoil will makes your gun point elsewhere, but it is never be the over exaggerating 100% upward only motion.

god dammit, how the hell do people manage shooting like that?

also the recoil thing, is 50% 50 less than current or 50 more?

By keep dragging the mouse downwards. I can do it with my G700 as well, but do I need to repeat the problem again?

Edited March 10, 2013 by 4 IN 1

[-Coulum- 35]

Newtonian physics anyone? In any case, the recoil should focus more on delivering the force backward instead of focusing upward, due to the way the pistol grip work, once the backward force is delivered, a part of that force will transform into upward motion due to lesser resistance on the upper side, this is where your support arms tension comes to play, the tension of your arm will naturally pull the barrel back down to somewhere close to to the original point of aim (in fact sometime you will ended up pointing under the original point of aim), all in all, recoil will makes your gun point elsewhere, but it is never be the over exaggerating 100% upward only motion.

I still must ask though, how can this backward motion and the tension of your arms that pulls the barrel back to the original point of aim be simulated. I am aware of the basic mechanics behind shooting (Though I admit I am a pretty subpar shot right now), but I don't think these can be truly simulated in arma because we only have a mouse and keyboard for input. IMO The best way to abstractly represent this is simply to drag the mouse down to compensate for recoil. Its not natural, but you still haven't presented another idea that is. Plus dragging down the mouse produces the exact result you mention: "recoil will make your gun point elsewhere, but it is never be the over exaggerating 100% upward only motion". I find that while trying to control the ingame recoil my aim bounces not only up but also down and slightly side to side, as I misjudge the amount of drag I need.

All in all I'll sum up by saying this - No the recoil, and method of handling the recoil is not realistic in this game. But, in the end it is a game and there is no way to simulate how one actually handles recoil. However, once one gets accustomed to the current method of recoil compensation (dragging) it is possible to deliver fire that is fairly similar to what is possible in reality with the same situations (combat, fatigue etc.) Therefore I feel it is fine as is.

[shocktrooper710 1]

I dont have the best mouse and I had been noticing that while the recoil itself didnt seem too bad, the vertical recoil seemed more awkward than in A2 (it seemed slightly slower and slightly after the shot, it was harder to recover from). I turned off mouse smoothing (a slight amount is on by default) and i noticed that my accuracy improved because i was better able to compensate for the recoil (the shots were more comfortable and less awkward). I still feel like the vertical recoil is a bit exaggerated than how it is in real life (im an infantryman). so far i have only been speaking about how the gun fires on semi-auto, on full auto it seems almost easier to group shots and accurately fire, whereas its hard for me to get a good grouping when firing in semi-auto.

[4 IN 1 0]

I still must ask though, how can this backward motion and the tension of your arms that pulls the barrel back to the original point of aim be simulated. I am aware of the basic mechanics behind shooting (Though I admit I am a pretty subpar shot right now), but I don't think these can be truly simulated in arma because we only have a mouse and keyboard for input. IMO The best way to abstractly represent this is simply to drag the mouse down to compensate for recoil. Its not natural, but you still haven't presented another idea that is. Plus dragging down the mouse produces the exact result you mention: "recoil will make your gun point elsewhere, but it is never be the over exaggerating 100% upward only motion". I find that while trying to control the ingame recoil my aim bounces not only up but also down and slightly side to side, as I misjudge the amount of drag I need.

All in all I'll sum up by saying this - No the recoil, and method of handling the recoil is not realistic in this game. But, in the end it is a game and there is no way to simulate how one actually handles recoil. However, once one gets accustomed to the current method of recoil compensation (dragging) it is possible to deliver fire that is fairly similar to what is possible in reality with the same situations (combat, fatigue etc.) Therefore I feel it is fine as is.

What you talk about is not a"simulation" of how reality is, it is an artificial difficultity force upon players that is anything but simulating those situations.

"How" is a question that developers are responsible to answer, we can only tell developers what is wrong, but generally speaking, what current system lacks is the downward motion cause by tension pulling down the barrel, a tiny randomness of sideways sway during the downward motion(that makes point of aim change), and a randomness of distance travel during downward motion (that also makes point of aim change). In the end of the day, What I am trying to say is that Travis Haley style rapid fire happy trigger fingers will still have to put extra effort to pull down the gun(because they are simply firing while the gun still going up) while standing still taking pot shot will have to adjust their aim with lesser effort.

Edited March 10, 2013 by 4 IN 1

[nicolasroger 11]

Is it possible to make left click launch a small script that does "attack+mousedown_a_bit" ?

Edited March 10, 2013 by nicolasroger

[Maxzy 12]

You know what? I gotta take my words back. I played a little more and got used to recoil which I first considered too much. Its just sometimes when I use single shot mode its like first two shots go without any recoil at all but the third shot gets summary recoil of all three - thats why I said that something broken. I guess its because of lags - during the fight game sometimes lags in a strange way. Can't say exactly what is the problem but i guess we just have to wait for a couple of updates =).

[oldy41 61]

Some people don't think that being able to simply point and click to hit is fun though. For me, I find it really diminishes the neccessity for tactics when you can sit on a hill 500 metres away and plink away at targets with ease. I like to have to maneuvre in close in order to destroy the enemy. So although having to struggle with your mouse may not be fun for you it definitely is fun for some.

Sorry, that was a misunderstanding.

I am totally fine with weapon sway and recoil in general. Otherwise I had bever fallen in love with OFP, ArmA and A2 like I did. :-)

What I wanted to say is simply: Currently it feels a bit overdone. Tune it down a little, and I will be fine.

[-Coulum- 35]

Sorry, that was a misunderstanding.

I am totally fine with weapon sway and recoil in general. Otherwise I had bever fallen in love with OFP, ArmA and A2 like I did. :-)

What I wanted to say is simply: Currently it feels a bit overdone. Tune it down a little, and I will be fine.

No prob, I understand. You don't like how it feels currently. I can say that the first time I tried to shoot an ai with full auto I felt the same. All I can do is suggest is that you give it a chance. Maybe with time you will find it not to be as frustrating.

What you talk about is not a"simulation" of how reality is, it is an artificial difficultity force upon players that is anything but simulating those situations.

"How" is a question that developers are responsible to answer, we can only tell developers what is wrong, but generally speaking, what current system lacks is the downward motion cause by tension pulling down the barrel, a tiny randomness of sideways sway during the downward motion(that makes point of aim change), and a randomness of distance travel during downward motion (that also makes point of aim change). In the end of the day, What I am trying to say is that Travis Haley style rapid fire happy trigger fingers will still have to put extra effort to pull down the gun(because they are simply firing while the gun still going up) while standing still taking pot shot will have to adjust their aim with lesser effort.

Yeah I fully admit, the current recoil isn't a simulation of how reality is - like you say and I totally agree. But what I am trying to get across is that it doesn't matter because the end result is still pretty realistic - you can't shoot rapidly and accurately at long ranges, and rapid fire is more to suppress or intimidate the enemy rather than kill them at anything other 50m. So even though it may not be a simulation, the results on the gameplay are realistic, so I am fine with it. And besides, we're talking about a video game, In the end we are just clicking and pressing buttons. How much simulation can you possibly get?

what current system lacks is the downward motion cause by tension pulling down the barrel, a tiny randomness of sideways sway during the downward motion(that makes point of aim change), and a randomness of distance travel during downward motion (that also makes point of aim change).

I would have nothing against the system that you suggest. It's results on gameplay would be good. But at the same time I am also happy with the current recoil because the results on gameplay are also good. In addition it requires an extras bit of interaction with the player (even if that interaction isn't realistic) that makes shooting more interesting IMO. Do you disagree that the current recoil does not produce realistic gameplay, or is your aversion to it based on the fact that the dragging down of the mouse requires more of your concentration and involvement than when you shoot in reality (I assume you shoot often and it has become second nature)?

[Heckman15th 1]

I read through this entire thread and though I have frequented these forums for quite some time I was compelled to reply to this thread. My issue with ARMA 3's recoil isn't even the recoil. Most shooters know that when you fire a weapon (single shot not full auto) there is always recoil. The shooter regains his sight picture not by pulling the weapon down but by allowing it to fall down via gravity. It's up to the shooter, via muscle memory, to stop the rifles decent. Check out ARMA 2 with ACE mod and fire the M14. It kicks hard but the gravity is simulated by your sight picture falling just short of your original spot. Then you adjust with the mouse. Now fire the EBR in ARMA 3. Its kicks just the same but just floats in air not effect by the force of gravity. You can keep the kick just let the rifle fall to relatively the same position like it was in ARMA 2 with ACE2. If you felt like the correction was to severe that is debatable but it still NEEDS to be there even if toned down. Oh yeah if you fire off rounds in game and say its there that is actually weapon sway. Keep firing single shots and on some the weapon will sway up making recoil seem even worse.

As for MG's... They are just plain awful. At 300m a modern day M249 or the higher caliber M240 can saw a target in half from the prone position going full auto. No bursts. There is ZERO muzzle climb for two reasons. One the weight of the gun pushes down and two the energy goes into the shoulder and is evenly dispersed throughout the soldiers body. It would be very silly to see an MG just lift off the ground. I think they should make the current prone recoil model the kneeling one and the kneeling one the standing one and throw the current standing numbers into the trash because NOTHING kicks that much.

I understand what people are saying and I get that this might make PVP gameplay more compelling but staying alive in PVP should be about cover, concealment, defilade, and tactics.

TL;DR

Shooting in ARMA 3 is harder then it is in real life. I think some tweaking should be done.

[snaiperskaya 10]

Blame lobbyism. Or Greenpeace intervened because 7.62 disturbs the seacritters alot more =P

Ahah, jesus.

Anyway, i don't think 6.5 recoil is too high, seriously...

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

Little addition in the discussion :

A Youtube video of someone firing the game standard ammo on range with the -proper- firing stance :

As you can see, no muzzle climb and 6.5 mm are said to be only a little more pushy than 5.56 mm

Lets see that guy run 300m and then fire at moving targets etc.

In games people tend to forget that you ALWAYS have a perfect firing position.

I really see no need to make the guns even easier to operate than current A3 because the end result would not be realistic. The recoil isnt even that bad.

[Tonci87 163]

I read through this entire thread and though I have frequented these forums for quite some time I was compelled to reply to this thread. My issue with ARMA 3's recoil isn't even the recoil. Most shooters know that when you fire a weapon (single shot not full auto) there is always recoil. The shooter regains his sight picture not by pulling the weapon down but by allowing it to fall down via gravity. It's up to the shooter, via muscle memory, to stop the rifles decent. Check out ARMA 2 with ACE mod and fire the M14. It kicks hard but the gravity is simulated by your sight picture falling just short of your original spot. Then you adjust with the mouse. Now fire the EBR in ARMA 3. Its kicks just the same but just floats in air not effect by the force of gravity. You can keep the kick just let the rifle fall to relatively the same position like it was in ARMA 2 with ACE2. If you felt like the correction was to severe that is debatable but it still NEEDS to be there even if toned down. Oh yeah if you fire off rounds in game and say its there that is actually weapon sway. Keep firing single shots and on some the weapon will sway up making recoil seem even worse.

As for MG's... They are just plain awful. At 300m a modern day M249 or the higher caliber M240 can saw a target in half from the prone position going full auto. No bursts. There is ZERO muzzle climb for two reasons. One the weight of the gun pushes down and two the energy goes into the shoulder and is evenly dispersed throughout the soldiers body. It would be very silly to see an MG just lift off the ground. I think they should make the current prone recoil model the kneeling one and the kneeling one the standing one and throw the current standing numbers into the trash because NOTHING kicks that much.

I understand what people are saying and I get that this might make PVP gameplay more compelling but staying alive in PVP should be about cover, concealment, defilade, and tactics.

TL;DR

Shooting in ARMA 3 is harder then it is in real life. I think some tweaking should be done.

Pretty much this

The guns need to snap back, not in the exact position but somewhere close to it.

[bigshot 64]

...been saying since day 2 that recoil is overdone to the point that firefights against AI are no longer enoyable...too unbalanced (regardless of reality or not)...this was yet another feature they appear to have implemented for the PvP experience because as far as PvE it kills it.

...also weapon sway when kneeling needs to be toned down on those 12x scopes...way too eratic for PvE.

funny, but for the last year or so ive been seeing a gradual change in arma2 that made me wonder if BIS was thinking more and more about going the way of PvP. Of course I never really believed it but within the last 6 months or so the arma2 PvE gameplay has become so much more unbalanced than it used to be that I almost stopped playing for good (took quite a few months away anyway)...but decided to come back and hope that arma3 would have it's stuff in order for a much improved PvE enviroment.

While I like some of the things I see visually...I can't help but feel that the PvE concept is now dying in the minds over at BIS. I certainly hope not, but there has been too much time passed on ignored PvE issues at this point to think otherwise. Time will tell I suppose :-(

Edited March 14, 2013 by BigShot

[rigid650 10]

Little addition in the discussion :

A Youtube video of someone firing the game standard ammo on range with the -proper- firing stance :

As you can see, no muzzle climb and 6.5 mm are said to be only a little more pushy than 5.56 mm

hardly "NO" muzzle climb, if you slo-mo the vid, he's got more than 0.5" vertical deviation

so, in conservitave calculation, his m4 has a 16" barrel, and total collapsed length of around 32.5" = 0.881 degrees = 52.5 MOA = around 4 FEET deviation @ 100 yds.

in perspective, an EOtech red dot has a 65 MOA outer ring.

should be rather simple to compare if realistic in-game if sombody wants to do a slo-mo video and the math....

(edited as i had incuded deviation after he was done firing)

Edited March 15, 2013 by rigid650

[SpecOp9 0]

Not to mention this is 2035, we'd have recoil pretty much figured out by then (if not already)