Alpha modding, what help will we get?

[slatts 1978]

The thread is "Alpha modding, what help will we get ?".

Steam Workshop is among the help we can get for modding. Let me apologize to speak about the very topic of this thread.

Actually the topic was "will we see new tools or tutorials for the new features?"

I should know, I started this thread.

[bad benson 1733]

I don´t fully agree with Bad Benson that people don´t want to put in the time anymore

well i meant those people who are willing to do it are less now. so many threads just asking for tutorials or all those "hey guys look at my project. all i need is people to do all the work. i will provide ideas"-threads. i learned a lot from other people in this community and just by testing stuff and asking specific questions. i get the frustration with the tools though. believe me i had my fair share of hair pulling moments. but arma isn't like all those simple shooter engines. with all those features come steps you gotta do to make stuff work ingame. but i think we don't really disagree. and if so just marginal. the tools aren't the best and the SDK is missing important stuff.

i'm just keeping my expectations super low since i spent a lot of time with this engine. it's kind of a hate-love thing.

but just seeing the SDK being mentioned in the interview vespaz linked to makes me kind of optimistic.

[Binkowski 26]

a2 soldier model and skeleton will still work

Are you positive about this? And if so where does it say it? I would like to read more into it.

[Sealife 22]

Are you positive about this? And if so where does it say it? I would like to read more into it.

I am being presumptuous , it's all we have at this stage

I can say for sure that I can make it work because I know how to config a new class of man like Solus did for arma 1 and Arma 2 that's easy everything is available just time is required

Will arma 2 fit right in with arma 3 man who knows but if I read DNA optimism correct , then yes it will but won't have all feature without some change that will be documented

[Alwarren 2767]

I am concerned because by now the addon development process is so complex that newcomers (particularly those without any experience) even with Arma and Arma 2 have popped up with regularity on the forums, asked a question, people dug around on the biki and various old sites to come up with a solution, only to either leave frustrated or head back to their work, never to post any updates again.

Speaking for myself, the Remington pack was my first ever mod (in the custom content sense), and while it was challenging at first to get going, it was hardly showstopping. Granted, I only made weapons, not characters, but still, it's possible with the information that is out there.

I can´t think of any A2 generation, big time and upcoming mod that was raised into existence after Arma 2s release. Pretty much everyone of repute has been around at least since Armed Assault times, many more even before. From my perspective, it seems like there are no new people coming in and actually sticking with it: instead of blaming this on people being lazy and entitled (as sometimes happens) I wonder if this problem couldn´t be addressed by making the addon production process easier. Better setup tools, solid, well organized documentation with detailed glossary, as well as fully annotated example models for at least the most basic things to make an addon work in the game would be very helpful.

I think it was Mike Abrash that once said that the first 90% of a project are fun and the second 90% are hard work. Getting something prototyped is exiting, but ironing out all the kinks and getting it in a presentable state is where a lot of people lose motivation. It's also the way that modern gaming culture work; more things on offer, with faster development cycles, means that you will be swamped with alternatives.

And, will Bohemia find the time and energy to actually give newcomers enough help to make them overcome the initial hurdles of learning the ropes?

At least the community will. I noticed that I got an answer to almost any question I asked :)

[Varanon 892]

No they will not be locked like A2 DLCs, but the EULA does apply :)

May I suggest that you release a sample model for the different classes of objects (weapon, solider, vehicle) to get people starting ? Could be an existing model with the appropriate source files. I'm sure that even if there is a "take it as is and don't ask questions" sticker to it, most people will be grateful for that. I know from my own experience as a professional software developer that doing something like that is always coupled with the "fear" of getting pounded with questions, but it would go a long way of getting people started with modding.

[instagoat 133]

Speaking for myself, the Remington pack was my first ever mod (in the custom content sense), and while it was challenging at first to get going, it was hardly showstopping. Granted, I only made weapons, not characters, but still, it's possible with the information that is out there.

-

I think it was Mike Abrash that once said that the first 90% of a project are fun and the second 90% are hard work. Getting something prototyped is exiting, but ironing out all the kinks and getting it in a presentable state is where a lot of people lose motivation. It's also the way that modern gaming culture work; more things on offer, with faster development cycles, means that you will be swamped with alternatives.

-

At least the community will. I noticed that I got an answer to almost any question I asked :)

[EDIT: Man I really need to learn how to say things without ranting and rambling, I apologize. I seem to be prone to posting novels :I ]

Yeah, Characters is where the difficult part lies. And asking the right questions and being dedicated is very important to learning how these things work. I´ve also forgot that there was another rather big (and as far as craftsmanship goes, excellent) project that got finished, which is the MI-24 A by Pathetic Berserker.

I think one major advantage of Arma 3 Units is that as far as equipment goes, you can completely compartmentalize the process. Vest, Helmet, Gloves (Possibly even the boots?) Are seperate from the Uniformed Unit itself, and even the parts I mentioned are all seperate. Notice how in the ShackTac screenshots the Units all wear different gloves from the BI screenshots: This may be set in the character screen, or in the inventory? For example, you would only need two different Units to represent current US Army Units: One with plain ACU, and one with Combat pants + Massif Combat shirt. Maybe two, one with sleeves rolled up and one with sleeves down. The vest would depend on the type of Unit, and would also need to be a seperate part. Then you need a helmet, and you can mix n match everything as necessary. To make Rangers out of these, you´d only need to put a different Vest over the ACU, maybe a different Helmet, throw on a different backpack and switch the texture with hidden selections so the patches are correct.

But again, even with these organizational advantages (Which we don´t know yet are really true and existent in the game...), the problem of the tools and organized Documentation lacking is a problem.

If BI is explicitly saying that the modders are one of their major target groups, they should do more than the average company, which do what seems to be happening right now: Throw out the tools and then let the community figure out how they work. That may work for a game like Half Life or Elder Scrolls that draws so many people that even those who get tired of trying to figure out the modding don´t really matter, because even then there´s so many modders left.

If you consider how active, and how many major websites there were towards the end of OFP's lifetime prior to the release of Armed Assault (Three or four major english Newspages alone.) due to the sheer amount of people getting into the game, you realize that Arma 3 needs to draw -major- amounts of new players for the current setup to bring in enough modders to keep a healthy ecosystem, so to speak.

I don´t know what the mood of the modding community behind Arma is, in the light of all the reveals about Arma 3 and everything that´s been stated, but from what I´ve gathered in threads here and in this one now is that the current situation with the tools is difficult enough to chase people away, and make current modders think twice before trying to work through a problem because instead of just having to tackle their addon, they also have to fight their tools.

My gameplay experience with Arma really has been built on the community modders, who have provided me as a player with endless hours of fun, allowing me to produce super diverse scenarios and scenes, and play missions made by other members of the community that got inspired by these addons (and who through their work inspired addon makers to try new things.) that often in quality surpassed many things you usually find in games nowadays. 90% of the things I do in my Arma involve modifications and addons in one way or the other, so this is a problem to me.

So I´m really interested what BI's position specifically to the situation with the tools and their documentation, and generally better organized modding support (as far as the community wants this.) is, aside from occasional tweets and forum posts.

Arma 3 will stand or fall with the content the community will produce, otherwise it´ll be like every other game: played for three months and discarded unless the next addon raises enough interest to buy another hour of gameplay for 12.95. No matter how hardcore, realistic or conversely easy-access and michael bay ish the game itself is.

Just my opinion though, I may be completely wrong on everything. My disclaimer :I

Cheerio

Insta

[Alwarren 2767]

[EDIT: Man I really need to learn how to say things without ranting and rambling, I apologize. I seem to be prone to posting novels :I ]

:)

I think one major advantage of Arma 3 Units is that as far as equipment goes, you can completely compartmentalize the process. Vest, Helmet, Gloves (Possibly even the boots?) Are seperate from the Uniformed Unit itself,

Guessing form what I have seen in the DayZ video blog, the boots are also "exchangeable", if this extends to Arma 3.

Notice how in the ShackTac screenshots the Units all wear different gloves from the BI screenshots: This may be set in the character screen, or in the inventory?

This early screenshot showed separate gloves, so yeah, they are most likely an equipment piece.

But again, even with these organizational advantages (Which we don´t know yet are really true and existent in the game...), the problem of the tools and organized Documentation lacking is a problem.

No doubt about that, but let's give them a bit of time. We're not even at the Alpha date yet :)

[bad benson 1733]

Arma 3 will stand or fall with the content the community will produce, otherwise it´ll be like every other game: played for three months and discarded

let's not get all "we're all gonna die" here. i may be guilty of getting emotional about this topic too but those statements help no one and aren't true in my opinion. even without "modding" (in the sense of new models and addons) arma has a very powerful mission editor which combined with some sqf skills can do wonders. some of the best stuff i played is totally addon free (chernarus apocalypse comes to mind which i still play regularly to this day). and even with what we have now a lot is possible.

i think what we need is specific requests for certain stuff from modders instead of general demands. modding support can never be a full feature like multiplayer or the mission editor. it may be a huge part of what makes arma good but let's not forgot that we're still talking about a game and not an open source(?) engine like Unity here.

documentation is something the community has to take care of (more). some stuff is hidden in and spread over several threads that can be hard to find if you don't know what to look for. but it's there.

i think someone (not me :p) should make a thread where we can make a list of all specific requests modders have. like known important visitor 3 bugs/needed features and ->stuff missing from the SDK like a skeleton in a non oxygen format and plugins to export into p3d <-.

if we could manage to keep it very specific and realistic we may get some of it.

[Assifuah 1]

Those "old timers" that are leaving aren't all going to just drop everything and ignore ARMA3. I'm sure some of them would be happy to help out new guys with the knowledge they already have! Sure it won't be thousands of dudes at once, but it will take time to grow. You teach one person, they teach another and so on!

[PuFu 4600]

the problem of the tools and organized Documentation lacking is a problem.

And the reason for that is because they have the information pretty spread out. Plus, there is just too much info left to be added by the community members. And tbh, there are very few that are willing, after spending a lot of time figuring things themselves, to write a full explanation (in detail) about certain processes. There are skype channels, but there the information given out between members is obviously not recorded on those forums or wiki for others too find. While in itself a great tools for faster coms, it is not as good as a place that you can search.

If BI is explicitly saying that the modders are one of their major target groups, they should do more than the average company, which do what seems to be happening right now: Throw out the tools and then let the community figure out how they work. That may work for a game like Half Life or Elder Scrolls that draws so many people that even those who get tired of trying to figure out the modding don´t really matter, because even then there´s so many modders left.

Arma is unfortunately not a SDK in itself. Most SDKs out there (and i know i am talking about big names and engines that are licensed each year to numerous games) have a vast and in depth documentation, as well as plug-ins for industry's standard software out there, besides the tools they come out with, with are very profesionally made and work as one would expect

On the other hand, the tools provided by BI are way sub standard, dating way back to OFP times (with little to no changes). While this is great for legacy reasons, it is also pretty hard to grasp even for people who have a history (or do it for a living) with 3d software and terrain and GIS editors.

If you consider how active, and how many major websites there were towards the end of OFP's lifetime prior to the release of Armed Assault (Three or four major english Newspages alone.) due to the sheer amount of people getting into the game, you realize that Arma 3 needs to draw -major- amounts of new players for the current setup to bring in enough modders to keep a healthy ecosystem, so to speak.

Also bear in mind that nowadays the percentage of people willing and able (both equally important) to get into modding is way lower than it used to be, for a number of reasons, the most important one, at least in books, being the sheer amount of time and skills that one needs in order to push content that is on par with the vanilla content. Things have evolved, and while tools can do some things faster in some cases, the quality bar is way higher than back in OFP times, as well as the workflow needed.

I don´t know what the mood of the modding community behind Arma is, in the light of all the reveals about Arma 3 and everything that´s been stated, but from what I´ve gathered in threads here and in this one now is that the current situation with the tools is difficult enough to chase people away, and make current modders think twice before trying to work through a problem because instead of just having to tackle their addon, they also have to fight their tools.

True point, at least for me.

My gameplay experience with Arma really has been built on the community modders, who have provided me as a player with endless hours of fun, allowing me to produce super diverse scenarios and scenes, and play missions made by other members of the community that got inspired by these addons (and who through their work inspired addon makers to try new things.) that often in quality surpassed many things you usually find in games nowadays. 90% of the things I do in my Arma involve modifications and addons in one way or the other, so this is a problem to me.

[snip]

Arma 3 will stand or fall with the content the community will produce, otherwise it´ll be like every other game: played for three months and discarded unless the next addon raises enough interest to buy another hour of gameplay for 12.95. No matter how hardcore, realistic or conversely easy-access and michael bay ish the game itself is.

I sincerly hope BI understand this point of view, and is able to take the necessary steps into the right direction and provided the (needed "?") assistance.

So I´m really interested what BI's position specifically to the situation with the tools and their documentation, and generally better organized modding support (as far as the community wants this.) is, aside from occasional tweets and forum posts.

I am really sorry to say this, but from where i was standing, BI didn't do ANYTHING at all to ease part of the development process (as in getting content in RV engine) since ArmA1 to OA. Same issues, same docus (some things added here and there by gracious community members out there), but nothing really on their part.

[x3kj 1247]

100% agreed, PuFu.

I have been modelling/modding a long time for another smaller game (X3) in the past years and i wanted to get into Arma 2 modding/modeling. X3 already wasn't that easy to learn the ropes, but it was much simpler because it doesn't have complex animations and configs etc and the files are all accessable relatively easy - so Reverseengineering was "relatively" easy. I looked for modding info for arma2 and came to several sides that pointed to OFP (some even didn't exist anymore). And i didn't find any full tutorial on how to make a complete vehicle or so for the game. Only some bits here, some there. In the end i had given up to because i didn't feel like going on an everlasting hash run just to get something basic working.

Also bear in mind that nowadays the percentage of people willing and able (both equally important) to get into modding is way lower than it used to be, for a number of reasons, the most important one, at least in books, being the sheer amount of time and skills that one needs in order to push content that is on par with the vanilla content. Things have evolved, and while tools can do some things faster in some cases, the quality bar is way higher than back in OFP times, as well as the workflow needed.

Yes, absolutely. With outdated tools and hard to find (if at all) documentation the time/efford required to even get something in the game is very demotivating. And then to top it off, you have to be very good/ learn alot in order to create something that passes as "OK"-Quality in the game.

On top of that, with the higher quality demand, the time required increases alot. A total conversion of a normal game these days takes ~3 years at least, and by that time there's usually already the predecessor of the game at the doorstep. If the team can even manage to stay motivated that long. That's also a reason why you don't see more 'fun' mods (e.g. *insert favorite scifi-movie* total conversion).

Edited March 2, 2013 by Fennek

[Alwarren 2767]

I always thought about collecting everything I had learned about making weapons for Arma 2 into some sort of tutorial, and I am still willing to do it, but I am not sure how much of that will still be relevant for Arma 3. I suppose most of it will be...

[johncage 30]

lets hope everything produced by soul assassin and the russian modders can be converted into the game with minimal complications.

[Vespa 1]

I can confirm Arma2 character models WILL work in Arma3. They only need some slight modifications, like renaming of selections, transfering memorypoints, distributing new proxies and copypasting new bare skin hands if present. Nothing too difficult. Arma2 heads will not transfer, as the facial skeleton is completely different.

[chortles 263]

Considering what's been said about earlier BI tools and documentation (or lack thereof) I'm not surprised that Rocket told someone on Twitter that the DayZ devs are using Maya, Max (what he uses) and Blender, and when someone asked for an animation position he asked "experience in motion blender?"...

[R0adki11 3949]

Those "old timers" that are leaving aren't all going to just drop everything and ignore ARMA3. I'm sure some of them would be happy to help out new guys with the knowledge they already have! Sure it won't be thousands of dudes at once, but it will take time to grow. You teach one person, they teach another and so on!

who you calling old :p (though i have been playing BIS Games Since the OFP Demo)

I can confirm Arma2 character models WILL work in Arma3. They only need some slight modifications, like renaming of selections, transfering memorypoints, distributing new proxies and copypasting new bare skin hands if present. Nothing too difficult. Arma2 heads will not transfer, as the facial skeleton is completely different.

That sounds very positive, will we get some guide or documentation to say what will be required for transfering model. On the subject of modding, i assume vehicles and aircraft will be much harder to move over from Arma2 to Arma3?

[saltatormortis 12]

i would like to see a section only for completed Modding tutorials or atlast a sticky

because the most tuts are getting drowned by the questions

and im hoping for improved modding examples or even better an db

[Varanon 892]

I can confirm Arma2 character models WILL work in Arma3. They only need some slight modifications, like renaming of selections, transfering memorypoints, distributing new proxies and copypasting new bare skin hands if present. Nothing too difficult. Arma2 heads will not transfer, as the facial skeleton is completely different.

Thanks.

What about gun models ? Just add appropriately named proxies for the attachments ?

What of suppressors ? I remember seeing in once video that is possible to put on a suppressor on the fly (RiE demonstrated that with a pistol). Previously, the gun's power was determined by the magazine used (or rather the ball), but this would mean that the power is the same with or without suppressor.. how is that handled in A3 ?

[Vespa 1]

That sounds very positive, will we get some guide or documentation to say what will be required for transfering model. On the subject of modding, i assume vehicles and aircraft will be much harder to move over from Arma2 to Arma3?

There should be some package with tools, tutorials and examples available some time later. Not right away with Alpha launch, from purely practical reasons - all the efforts went to making the actual game first. But I really look forward to support the whole modding thing more, will gladly make some tutorials when all is ready.

Transfering vehicles - not my area, I would only specualte. But I'm sure they won't be left out in the package, when it comes.

---------- Post added at 11:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------

Thanks.

What about gun models ? Just add appropriately named proxies for the attachments ?

What of suppressors ? I remember seeing in once video that is possible to put on a suppressor on the fly (RiE demonstrated that with a pistol). Previously, the gun's power was determined by the magazine used (or rather the ball), but this would mean that the power is the same with or without suppressor.. how is that handled in A3 ?

Gun models are pretty much the same as in A2, except they have extra proxy slots for attachments. But I dare to guess the conversion will be possible with current A2 tools - I once tried to run an old Arma2 AK74 in Arma3 by just replacing the model of existing rifle and it worked pretty okay right away. There might be some difference in named selections and material settings, but overall there shoudl be no showstopping problems.

[bravo93 37]

I can confirm Arma2 character models WILL work in Arma3. They only need some slight modifications, like renaming of selections, transfering memorypoints, distributing new proxies and copypasting new bare skin hands if present. Nothing too difficult. Arma2 heads will not transfer, as the facial skeleton is completely different.

Hi Vespa, Do you know if the BAF units will work in Arma 3? Would be great if they did!

[lennard 447]

There should be some package with tools, tutorials and examples available some time later. Not right away with Alpha launch, from purely practical reasons - all the efforts went to making the actual game first. But I really look forward to support the whole modding thing more, will gladly make some tutorials when all is ready.

Transfering vehicles - not my area, I would only specualte. But I'm sure they won't be left out in the package, when it comes.

---------- Post added at 11:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------

Gun models are pretty much the same as in A2, except they have extra proxy slots for attachments. But I dare to guess the conversion will be possible with current A2 tools - I once tried to run an old Arma2 AK74 in Arma3 by just replacing the model of existing rifle and it worked pretty okay right away. There might be some difference in named selections and material settings, but overall there shoudl be no showstopping problems.

Very good news:) Things like that got me wondering for a long time.

Thanks for answering our questions Vespa.

[StroggCmd 10]

There should be some package with tools, tutorials and examples available some time later. Not right away with Alpha launch, from purely practical reasons - all the efforts went to making the actual game first. But I really look forward to support the whole modding thing more, will gladly make some tutorials when all is ready.

I was hoping for the tools right off the bat, but oh well. I still have lots of stuff to make, so I might as well wait. Thanks for the info! :)

[PuFu 4600]

Considering what's been said about earlier BI tools and documentation (or lack thereof) I'm not surprised that Rocket told someone on Twitter that the DayZ devs are using Maya, Max (what he uses) and Blender, and when someone asked for an animation position he asked "experience in motion blender?"...

You mean Motion Builder...

Devs even with Bi (A3) (afaik) were using Maya + Modo (primarily) for creating content. For getting content in the game you still need BI Tools

---------- Post added at 13:58 ---------- Previous post was at 13:57 ----------

lets hope everything produced by soul assassin and the russian modders can be converted into the game with minimal complications.

No everyone woking on russian equipment is russian btw...

[Gunter Severloh 4056]

Anyone mention maps ported over to A3 yet?

I'd like to see some of the maps from Arma2CO that are popular here on the new engine, that would be amazing to see and be on!