The ultimate thread about Arma 3 anti-cheat discussion

[deltatreesix 1]

Yeah BE has issues with mcafee even if you let it pass trough tour firewall. But only recently, I would just wait till they fix it(for mcafee users anyway),

[RadicalAtHeart 11]

VAC is a great anti cheat engine! I would also love to see it. As long as it's not punkbuster I am glad. If you cheat with VAC, you lose your whole Steam Account. How cool is that? All those games you paid for. I say that's the way it should be done.

Never had issues with Battleye though

[iceman77 18]

VAC is a great anti cheat engine! I would also love to see it. As long as it's not punkbuster I am glad. If you cheat with VAC, you lose your whole Steam Account. How cool is that? All those games you paid for. I say that's the way it should be done.

Never had issues with Battleye though

+1 That sounds pretty good. Hit the players in their wallet, so just maybe they think twice about hacking. Though, it wouldn't stop everyone. It would possibly stop alot of folks with big game libraries, that they actually play.

[.kju 3245]

Thats wrong. VAC bans are not steam wide. Search for the VAC FAQ for more info.

[TSAndrey 1]

VAC is a great anti cheat engine! I would also love to see it. As long as it's not punkbuster I am glad. If you cheat with VAC, you lose your whole Steam Account. How cool is that? All those games you paid for. I say that's the way it should be done.

Never had issues with Battleye though

No, you don't. You only get VAC banned on games that use the same engine. Example: If you get VAC banned in MW2, you can keep playing all other VAC games (except COD)

[Dwarden 1125]

@iceman , @radicalatheart

VAC bans just the 1 title not your whole account nor all the games with VAC enabled , common misconception ...

below is just copy of my post from http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/118160-memory-hacking-in-standalone/page__st__120#entry1144924

while it's related to DayZ the common sense parts are same for ARMA 3

---

i don't want to go into negative list so i cut it short, for now... (yet it's still wall of text)

1.

seems like lot of people naively thinks that VAC ban is somehow more effective than BE ban ...

it's false conclusion

global BE GUID ban based of CD-key from GameSpy (or if needed on STEAM account ID)

or

VAC ban of just that one game on STEAM account ID

in result it weights exactly the same (global ban on anti-cheat enabled server)

now let's look at creation of new STEAM account takes minute(s) at max

considering STEAM uses normal captcha for registration (CAPTCHA was broken and can be automated since like 2010)

so even less difference between now and then in terms of deterrent (minutes to get new account either way)

-----

2.

... now about memory read / edit and hooks and injections and so on ...

did anyone asked self question why all the big MP games are using 'another' anti-cheat like PB next to VAC ? :)

the main change in way how cheats looks for DayZ standalone vs DayZ mod is client-server model

yet this has nothing to do with VAC and thus linking this "improvement" to VAC effectiveness is misleading ...

which will enforce majority (if not all) of cheats to aim and target on the client

what gets even more popular are read-only (memory/net-code) like radar-hacks,ESPs, wall-hacks etc.

now some naively thinks that ESP,radar will vanish because of the server-client architecture, that's not true !

it will be limited e.g. within Your visual range where objects are reported to You but it will be enough to provide

unfair advantage in-time to determine outcome of encounter, which is primary problem for survival game with fatal death

+

also memory editing might appear in rare cases - with anything what could be tampered with (aiming? so aim-bots etc.)

...

these cheat types will thrive and appear en-mass (on rate dozen builds / week) and You will need to have very good anti-cheat to fight back

not just in terms of technology 'how to detect' them but also it's update rate (and BE does it well, see the actual state of cheat scene)

...

-----

3.

good news is absence of abusable script commands which were abused for client-server / client-server-client broadcast

that solves the headache for other players as they not anymore targets of script-kiddie prank scripts

and of-course depends on which of the client side scripting was removed from DayZ standalone

yet again this has nothing to do with VAC and thus linking this "improvement" to VAC effectiveness is misleading ...

note:

some naively thinks ESP is based off in-game scripting, then be warned it's wrong,

D3D/OpenGL based ESP overlays (just like FPS counters) exists for decade+ and are just read-only from game's memory

---

... in the end ... look at all the public and private cheats for all popular games and theirs history and guess who has the worst 'score' in detection / prevention ...

PS:

IMHO

for me BE outperforms now even PB in several key areas yet i agree that in some features and optional bonuses PB still excels

for me VAC is no replacement to either of them, it's just good bonus to have next to primary anti-cheat

if you want fight over my opinion then PROVE me wrong and show me in what way is X better than Y, cause i would like to know ;)

* note: you don't need waste Your breath over stuff like GameGuard, HackShield and similar cripple-ware (badly written anti-cheats / anti-macros)...

legend:

BE - BattlEye,

GUID - Globally Unique ID,

PB - PunkBuster,

VAC - Valve Anti-Cheat,

CAPTCHA - Completely Automated Public Turing test to Tell Computers and Humans,

D3D - Direct 3D,

IMHO - In My Honest Opinion

---

Edited January 27, 2013 by Dwarden

[accapella 1]

1.

seems like lot of people naively thinks that VAC ban is somehow more effective than BE ban ...

it's false conclusion

global BE GUID ban based of CD-key from GameSpy (or if needed on STEAM account ID)

or

VAC ban of just that one game on STEAM account ID

in result it weights exactly the same (global ban on anti-cheat enabled server)

now let's look at creation of new STEAM account takes minute(s) at max

considering STEAM uses normal captcha for registration (CAPTCHA was broken and can be automated since like 2010)

so even less difference between now and then in terms of deterrent (minutes to get new account either way)

In legal terms I hear steam is infact a "rental" service.

The games are tied to your account, permanently (you cannot play steam games installed on your computer with another steam account on the same computer if that account does not own the game), and if you cheat and get vac banned from a game, not only you need to make a new account, but you need to buy the game again aswell.

[Dwarden 1125]

Helari and how that differs from buying new CDkey ?

if cheater gets VAC banned then he just creates new STEAM account with the specific game to go around the ban

no difference in way how these bans works ...

[Vigil Vindex 64]

I think what Dwarden has said sums it up nicely. BE is good, but could be made better (add features of PB for example). No reason to drop it completely, just invest some resources into improving battleye and arma. In regards to steam, no point getting hung up on steam, its just one facet of the issue. If vac can apply an additional layer of banning specifically for infractions occurring on copies of arma linked to a steam account then that should be used to help increase the deterrence of hacks etc.

[NeuroFunker 11]

im sort of BE hater myself, but maybe really it is about arma's engine, which sadly allows some exploits. Anyway, i guess BE/BI learn a lot from DAYZ, and i'm sure, arma III will be more hacker-proof.

[iceman77 18]

@Dwarden - Oh okay. Thanks for informing me. I hadn't even heard of this "VAC" until I read radicals post about it. It did sound pretty good though!

[_Mofo_ 1]

@Dwarden

Very nice post! I'll help sum up what you're saying if you don't mind.

No anticheat "PROGRAM" (<--- remember this term) can solve cheating 100%. There are things that HAVE to be run on the client side in order for the game to work properly and since a "PROGRAM" is nothing more than written instructions which are compiled into a lower language (ASM), then if you can decompile the ASM code and rewrite the code... there is nothing that can stop anyone with knowledge from altering the code. (Anticheats that are nothing more than written instructions for the PC to execute)

An anticheat PROGRAM has written instructions to calculate certain criteria and return back either an "all clear" or "something is wrong" trigger. The way hacks are able to run even with an anticheat is by rewritting the anticheat to ALWAYS return "all clear" no matter what. Since the anticheat "MUST" run on a PC, it must be compiled into ASM for the computer to carry out the tasks written in the higher level instructions. Then, you take the game... which is nothing more then more written instructions and you rewrite the way the instructions operate to acquire your desired effect. (A hack)

Battleye updates on a frequent basis (new instructions that break existing hacks to the code) and while it may not have the big name as the other guys... it does a good job. Tossing BE for some other set of instructions will not solve the problem, and even worse, "may" cause MORE problems or worse protections from paid-for-skills kids. It's a cat and mouse game where one makes a move.. then the other counters the move... then the move is countered... to infinity and beyond.

The ultimate Anti-Cheat: A mature group of admins with keen eyes and quick reflexes. The ultimate unhackable anticheat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language

-------------

@Iceman77...

Burrr... Fairbanks? I pitty you and that hellhole. Lived in Fairbanks for a year (chased a woman) and while it was awesome in the summer (minus the pterodactyls that will carry you off)... those winters are brutal man!

The slope on the base didn't get much snow that year either so they blew it in.... ugh... sets up like concrete when it's man made. Damn near broke my face in half learning to snowboard on it.

Edited January 28, 2013 by _Mofo_

[tonygrunt 10]

I suspect also one more con for VAC is, as it is one of the most popular anti-cheat it would have more hackers trying to break it than battleye.

Also how regular VAC is updated would be mostly up to Valve, which might have an effect on beta updates of the game (battleye is at most updated a couple of hours after a beta release).

[doveman 7]

I can't comment on whether it's a good AC engine but I've been having problems with BE for months now.

I eventually found out the reason I couldn't connect (getting kicked straight away) to any servers was EventGhost, which I use to translate my remote control keypresses into commands for MediaPortal. Bit of a pain having to close that to play ArmA and reload it after to watch TV but I'm using Gamebooster to automate that now.

However even with EG closed I'm finding I can't slot in after connecting to a server and have to disconnect and reconnect before it will work, which not only breaks the ability to use tools like PwS to automatically log me in (after disconnecting I have to manually filter the server list, find the server and enter the password) but can also cause problems/delays as the servers don't always register that I've disconnected straight away, so I have to ask someone to kick my "ghost".

I have contacted BE about this but apart from asking some basic questions about the router I use they haven't offered any help (I worked out BE didn't like Eventghost by myself) and haven't replied to my last e-mail on 4th December.

I need to apologise to BE as it turns out this problem was nothing to do with it.

What was causing it was that, as I've been trying to use a RAMdisk and had some files from Expansion/Addons on the RAMDisk, to prevent those files being loaded from the HDD instead I had to move them, to a folder named @ramdisk. When running from HDD, as I have been lately as it was locking up my PC when running from RAMdisk, I included @ramdisk in my modline so that those files were loaded. Moving those files back into Expansion/Addons has fixed the problem of having to disconnect and reconnect before I could slot-in.

So I guess I'm going to have to abandon the idea of running (mostly) from RAMDisk, as I don't have space for all the files in Expansion/Addons (even on an 11GB RAMDisk, as I found I had to put all of Common on there as well, plus some of the Arma2\Addons files, so I have to include the HDD Expansion\Addons in my modline and if that contains the same files that are on the RAMdisk, it uses the HDD copies instead of the RAMdisk ones.

[Dwarden 1125]

this is my post in other thread, but I feel it's needed to be read in this one too, before You start dismissing BattlEye

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?145664-New-wave-of-hackers-more-deadly-than-before&p=2289042&viewfull=1#post2289042

people often fail to realize that amount of cheating quite often isn't coverable by BE (no matter how hard it can try)

the Dayz mod itself have both client and server side scripting which is insecure (aka easy to abuse)

*it was and is quite often abused by script kiddies, quite some remote exec cheats and messing with database and item/players state

the OA engine has own scripting sub components like MP framework and similar which are insecure (were built for coop not safe pvp)

** abused again with script kiddies

the OA engine sports 3 nearly full documented scripting languages and also documented file architecture (again makes cheating easier)

the OA engine itself is insecure (as it was built for coop) with client-server-client architecture

(where client can spawn/control events/objects and alter state of simulation (aka it's not server side in style server is always right))

for these reasons was added logging of most 'abused' / 'dangerous' script events via BattlEye's server side filters ...

these filters not just allow logging and kicking but also allow BE + engine to prevent the script execution if set to kick

well written scripts and BE filters can detect and prevent some abuse in script subsystem

full logging (1 "") can allow detect some more script cheaters afterward (e.g. via PERL parsing)

+

BattlEye protects the servers from more than just cheats on netcode level (most of admins takes this for granted but it's thanks to BE not engine itself)

BattlEye also offers admins RCON for remote administration which engine lacks by default

overally, BattlEye does extremely good job on detecting and banning public free and paid cheats

we talking about 1000s bans / weekly

i'm not saying the system is perfect or has everything (PunkBuster still has some nice little features I would like to see in BE)

but I doubt (in fact I don't believe) that any other anticheat (PunkBuster, VAC, GameGuard, HackShield or else) can do better than BE

in the end, the quality of protection is also limited to what we know about exploits or attack vectors ... if there is something we don't know or can't predict, then we can't fix it

there is way more to BattlEye than just 'plain cheat detection/prevention' ... and quite often it's ignored by users and admins cause it's taken for granted...

Edited February 2, 2013 by Dwarden

[SpunkyDonutz 1]

I agree, Battle-eye is terrible! I got globally banned for no reason at all, and to top it all of I've sent numerous emails to the battle-eye support team and got no reply what so ever. It's been about a month or so since I sent the first email.

[jw custom 56]

I agree, Battle-eye is terrible! I got globally banned for no reason at all, and to top it all of I've sent numerous emails to the battle-eye support team and got no reply what so ever. It's been about a month or so since I sent the first email.

Well if that makes BE terrible then google PB/VAC bans and see how terrible they are.

[Trakko 1]

I doubt after this long they would bother using any new software, an update would be nice however. It's been the same for bloody years.

[metalcraze 290]

I agree, Battle-eye is terrible! I got globally banned for no reason at all, and to top it all of I've sent numerous emails to the battle-eye support team and got no reply what so ever. It's been about a month or so since I sent the first email.

Battle-eye is terrible because it punished you for hacking and kept the already 'infected' community cleaner?

How's that a bad thing?

[chortles 263]

Doesn't anyone complaining about BattlEye remember Rocket specifically blaming the OA engine ("not made with PVP in mind") instead of BattlEye for the exploits over the summer in his public push for a standalone, basically "I need a standalone version because of the Arma 2 engine being designed to be so open"?

[TSAndrey 1]

It's been the same for bloody years.

That's not true.

[NuclearAdmiral 1]

Well, battleye is not great no.. its quite bad but if they now start making a new anticheat for arma3 i would say it would take a good 6months or so to get it even close to as effective as battleye is now.. theese antihacks are not that easy to make really..

[Dwarden 1125]

Well, battleye is not great no.. its quite bad but if they now start making a new anticheat for arma3 i would say it would take a good 6months or so to get it even close to as effective as battleye is now.. theese antihacks are not that easy to make really..

quite bad? show me one undetected public free or paid cheat for A2: OA ...

[metalcraze 290]

Judging by the amount of people complaining about being global-banned for "no reason" (and all of them getting banned in DayZ - what a coincidence since that is what hacks are made for) - I'd say Battleye is doing a good job.

[max power 21]

quite bad? show me one undetected public free or paid cheat for A2: OA ...

The humour of that is not lost on me ^_^