Israel - Gaza - What should we do if anything.

[void_false 1]

since few bad placed bombs and bodybags sent back to Europe would make all those years of painting themself as resistance go to hell.

It won't go to hell. What would happen is that all the blame would be put on some "independent cell" and there will be UN forces withdrawal. There's no oil here so no country will sacrifice the lives of its soldiers for nothing.

[vilas 477]

But the reality is, in the world outside the U.S., real anti-semitism (surging in Europe right now) creates a double standard the gets Israel an enormous amount of blame. It's a complicated topic because Israel deserves the condemnation it gets, but there are many countries that do far worse things with no repercussions, and part of the reason for that is anti-semitism. And it gets even more complicated because there should be a double-standard. Countries that claim to be enlightened democracies and friends of the West should be held to higher standards of behavior.

And anti-semitism purely refers to hatred of Jews, even though the etymology is inaccurate. Just like Islamophobia refers hatred of Muslims rather than a clinically irrational fear like agoraphobia, etc.

please note that antisemitism should not be taken equal as anti-Israel gov. or anti-Zionism (Jewish feel of superiority being chosen by "god" to "rule the world")

you say that "outside-US", maybe problem is that in US you take critics of Israeli gov. (+banks) and Jewish nationalists as antisemitism ?

i gave 2 pages ago examples from Poland, in Auschwitz died lots of Jews and lots of Christians, when Christians wanted to put Cross there, there was action of Jews against it , and it was called anti-semitism , wooow, so "if 6-angle stare is everywhere it is okay, when someone wants to put cross it is bad, evil and antisemitic ?"

200 thousands of Chrisitans died in Auschwitz, but it is forbidden to put cross there ? why?

why anti-Zionism is in some western countries taken as anti-semitism ?

so if i am against Hitler does it mean i hate Austrians ? if i hate G W Bush decisions does it mean i hate usual American too ?

c'mon, the fact that i do not like some Israeli gov. actions do not make me antisemitic just like i have neighbor which is Jew and i am in good relation with that person , just like i eat Arab food often (and i say they have great food, great art of fabrics, world most beautiful carpets) but i don't accept their religious fanatics

about anti-Islam, you live in USA, you do not understand this:

http://www.nyuinterventional.com/disagreement-on-the-christmas-tree-in-kokkedal/

http://karimblog123.blogspot.com/2012/11/no-christmas-tree-in-kokkedal-danish.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT-aNRI9gtg (Paris streets blocked by Muslims)

do you know what will be next ? cut-throating and beheading for Chrismass tree ?

living in US you do not know what happens in places when you have for example 5-10% of very very very religious minority that takes social benefits (from your taxes) and do not work

(violence here, guys beating and robbing other guy)

do you realize what happens in Europe from US point of view ?

can you imagine that someone can forbid your turkey on 4th of July ? or someone can take away your Christmass tree and live from your taxes without work ?

saying that intolerance grows in some parts of the world is easy, but understand please that people in some parts of the world have problems caused by immigrants, minorities etc.

for example i remember Roms/Gypsies from my youth, when there was Martial Law in 80s in Poland, my mother was activist of Solidarity, and she had problems, so i lived in Zuromin, small town in Poland, small provintional town with a lot of Roms/Gypsies, i rememember it very well, you know what they were doing ?

they were not working, they were robbing people, for example group of 20-30 of them were attacking village and robbing all chickens (from farmers), robbing gold rings etc. and escaping, later they drunk for it and eaten those robbed chickens from farmers (and farmers had no chicken for sale)

noone of them ever worked, only robbed others cause in their "beliefs" they do not need to work,

but it was 80s, communism, so Militia was really efficient those days, Militia was beating them soon,

but of course anyone can say "oh my god, racist Militia beats poor people" ?

later when i moved back to my mother in late 80s there was peace on the streets, but in 90s in "free Poland" i was robbed by knife-armed Gypises too, they took away my money from my wallet , they were threatening me with the knife,

my mother also was robbed in 90s by Gypsies etc.

c'mon, please understand that there is always something hidden , some hidden truth that "politicall correctness" forbid to see,

so please look not only at effect but also for a reason,

in Europe we have our organized world, we work, we have social rights, we live peaceful way and we want to stay this way

agoraphobia is irrational , cause small tiny spider won't hurt me, won't rob me, won't behead me, won't spend my taxes on vodka

so please for future be more careful when you say about European anti-something-ism :)

cause in America you have nazi symbols legal, afaik US citizen may wear SS uniform without legal problems, so who is Anti-Semitic more if in your country anyone can wear Swastika and SS-Uniform ;)

first of all how about those Marines : http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Marines-Nazi-Symbol.JPEG-0ef261.jpg ???

or those guys from Arizona : http://www.jornal.us/pictures/78043663_Neo-Nazi%20Motherfucker%20-%20herrington.jpg ???

how about them ? guys in public place in Nazi uniforms with Swastikas on arms and no-police reaction ? c'mon, don't call Europeans anti-something-ism ;)

Europe is not something worse than rest of world :) we have our peaceful lazy way of life which we want to save, if USA would have no borders with Mexico i can only imagine anti-something-ism in USA, simply you have visas and strong border guard line on your south border + gun rights to defend yourself (which we in most cases do not have and can't do it in Europe, cause here you ca't shot robber just like that , we have different property protection law here)

world politics and history is complicated as Gaza situation is complicated, to achieve peace everyone should make at least one step back, but problem is when one makes step back, other makes step forward to take part/land/property/whatever

Edited December 4, 2012 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

There is a proverb - "if woman is beaten by her husband - then her husband is douchebag; if she is beaten again but by her third husband - there's something wrong with herself". So it may be implied to some nations IMO.

And as for the enormous amount of blame for Jews... They pretend to be civilized nation with high level of culture, not some jungle tribe of cannibals. So after they suffered serious problems during WW2 and all that massive fuss about one of the greatest genocides in human history and one of the greatest human tragedies it is expected from them to become wiser and not to be like those who tried to wipe them out of the Earth.

[vilas 477]

"if woman is beaten by her husband - then her husband is douchebag; if she is beaten again but by her third husband - there's something wrong with herself"

were wise and very true (macho-loving syndrome) , i didn't know it , is it Russian proverb ?

there is another Russian proverb which is worth mentioning in politics:

u silnovo vsegda bessylnyi vynovat - for the strong guy - it is always fault of weak guy

we see it in politics every day, one country bomb another country (weaker) and say "they are guilty"

[spooky lynx 73]

were wise and very true (macho-loving syndrome) , i didn't know it , is it Russian proverb ?

there is another Russian proverb which is worth mentioning in politics:

u silnovo vsegda bessylnyi vynovat - for the strong guy - it is always fault of weak guy

we see it in politics every day, one country bomb another country (weaker) and say "they are guilty"

Yes:) It is not about real abuse but about the fact that sometimes a person blamed for something many times by different people really does wrong things. Your gypsy story is an example of what does this proverb mean. They may say any politically correct stuff they want but in fact some people really cause only problems and that's why they are blamed and disliked by others.

[kireta21 13]

Vilas, outside Europe not many give a lot of care for Nazi symbols. Only Poland, and middle Europe are sensitive on that matter. Also, please take note how Nazi sybols are banned, but communst symbols are just fine despite repesenting something just as bloody. Beside, Neo-Nazi movements pop-up even in Germany, where ban is the strictest. Even in Poland there is National Radical Camp. It's as effective as Ukrainian ban on pornography.

PS: Agoraphobia is fear of open spaces, fear of spiders is arachnofobia. Oh, and SS - Scout Snipers. Might need to know, Finns also used swastikas as insignia of their air force since 1918, so don't accuse them of beign Nazis even before creation of Nazi Party:P.

[scrim 1]

It's not "rather strange" :), its the view of the countries that suffer the embargos. You're probably not in a position to know and that's all.

Who can judge what happens in my country except my fellow nationals? Why do countries like the US (not Sweden) are able to tell what's wrong and what's right?

I don't really understand what you mean. There is no good reason to attempt a less violent method first against dictator's like Saddam, i.e. embargos before invasion. If we were to stop using embargos every time we'd be willing to resort to invasion should the embargo not have the desired effect, we'd have to invade every country we ever wanted to stop from doing something, as you think it's so wrong to try using an embargo first.

The world isn't black and white. I'm not saying that the Americans are the persons on the planet who can see what is right and what is not, but the fact is that as long as they are the world's only super power they will dictate a bunch of things about how the world is run, and as long as they are a democracy, they will probably cause more good than bad. Morally speaking they have had good intentions at least partly in most of their wars, so I prefer having them run the show, as opposed to Russia or China.

[spooky lynx 73]

Freebie is over?

[walker 0]

Hi all

It is time to move on the stagnation has been going on for half a centuary.

The first things for the new state of Palestine to do is to arrange for embassies both in Palestine and in states that recognise the state.

Secondly Palestine needs to take control of its border crossing points by establishing border controls and checkpoints on access corridors. Then start issuing visas.

Thirdly Palestine needs to start delineating its borders first of all with maps showing the state. Then with fences so that people who wish to cross into Palestine are channeled to the legal border crossing points.

At some point the external refugee population in places like Libya Jordan and Egypt will need to be reintigrated so I would expect a mass exodus from those countries back to their home country.

There are lots of other things to do, not least establishing their own tax collection system, Palestine needs to get on with with all that and essentialy ignore Israel while it does so.

Kind Regards walker

Edited December 4, 2012 by walker

[kireta21 13]

Well, I can see clearly how Israel will refuse. If UN can't force Iran to obey NPT and allowed North Korea to outright break it, NPT simply does not work, especially when other middle east countries like Saudi Arabia, already suggest starting their own nuclear program to protect themself from possibly nuke-armed Iran.

That's official line.

Real is, both confirmation or denial of Israel nuclear arsenal will cripple it's effectiveness as fear factor.

If arsenal exist and will be inspected, it location will be known. Note Israel doesn't have nuke-resistant ICBM bases, and air force bases with strategic bombers thousands of kilometers from possible threads. It's small piece of land, any place is within reach of enemy fast-movers, so nuclear arsenal may be destroyed on ground within first hours of war, way before war reaches critical mass for nukes to be used.

If it doesn't, another Israel-Arab war may be only matter of time.

[spooky lynx 73]

Looking at Arab cooperation I can say another Arab-Israeli war is something in very far perspective.

[scrim 1]

Except no of the Arab countries have really dared to attack Israel since they lost their backing from the Soviet Union, and Israel still has its US backing that means that the Israeli military is in the 21th century, which is considerably more than you could say for some Arab nations. And the richer Arab nations that could muster the strength to directly support an attack on Israel, well those would be limited to one: Saudi Arabia, and they hardly give enough of a toss about Israel to mess up their relationship and trade with the US.

[seba1976 98]

Except no of the Arab countries have really dared to attack Israel since they lost their backing from the Soviet Union, and Israel still has its US backing that means that the Israeli military is in the 21th century, which is considerably more than you could say for some Arab nations. And the richer Arab nations that could muster the strength to directly support an attack on Israel, well those would be limited to one: Saudi Arabia, and they hardly give enough of a toss about Israel to mess up their relationship and trade with the US.

Had Israel started the ground invasion, we would have saw what the new democracy in Egypt had to say about it. Very likely the people would have pressure their newly elected goverment to protect Gaza from Israel.

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------

Morally speaking they have had good intentions at least partly in most of their wars.

I well-intentioned war... good lord.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Israel is widely believed to possess the Middle East's only nuclear arsenal, but neither confirms nor denies this. The UN General Assembly on Monday voted overwhelmingly to urge Israel to open its nuclear facitilites for inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Israel was also asked to join the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty "without further delay." How many hardliners or ultra-nationalist/religious people are required to start the World War III in the Middle East?

[seba1976 98]

Yep, all this UN resolutions and international pressure could move Israel to the brink of war.

[oxmox 73]

Well, in the past any IAEA inspection was refused so I would not be surprised if this will happen again. The "world" looks all at Iran with a "possible" nuclear programm, but at the end they forget about the nuclear arsenal of Pakistan which is probably a higher risk. Israel is a very small country, they are afraid about any nuclear potential of their enemies. One attack alone would evaporate the whole country, thats why they got U-boats from germany so they have a chance for 2nd strike. Nuclear weapons are rather used as deterrent, who would really use them offensively, countries like Iran ?.it would be a suicide of the whole nation.

Edited December 4, 2012 by oxmox

[seba1976 98]

It's not clear whether your last statement implies Iran would use the nukes offensively. In case it does: no, they would not use them offensively, only to assure they're not invaded, ever, just like everybody else.

[void_false 1]

Freebie is over

You've linked the wrong article. The right one would be:

After U.N. vote, Israel cuts off cash to Palestinians

So now, as a tax payer, I can breathe freely knowing that money that I earn won't be used by my enemy to produce weapons and such. Also, I'm very happy to see that I won't pay my enemy's bills for electricity, gas and water. So yeah, for them the freebie is over.

And about nuclear program inspection... They may dream about it as much as they want. Not gonna happen. I guarantee you that.

Edited December 4, 2012 by void_false

[oxmox 73]

It's not clear whether your last statement implies Iran would use the nukes offensively. In case it does: no, they would not use them offensively, only to assure they're not invaded, ever, just like everybody else.

Yes, this is what I tried to say. Nuclear weapons as detterent effect to assure not beeing invaded.

So now, as a tax payer, I can breathe freely knowing that money that I earn won't be used by my enemy to produce weapons and such. Also, I'm very happy to see that I won't pay my enemy's bills for electricity, gas and water. So yeah, for them the freebie is over.

And about nuclear program inspection... They may dream about it as much as they want. Not gonna happen. I guarantee you that.

How does the tax system works for the WestBank and Gaza ? So far I know, they are completely depandant on Israel and rely on their taxation system. Are they paying income tax and other taxes ?

Edited December 5, 2012 by oxmox

[void_false 1]

How does the tax system works for the WestBank and Gaza ? So far I know, they are completely depandant on Israel and rely on their taxation system. Are they paying income tax and other taxes ?

Very simple. Israel citizens pay taxes, then Israel government takes that money and streams it as a tribute to "Palestine". Now our government grew balls to end this absurd.

---------- Post added at 00:15 ---------- Previous post was at 00:02 ----------

Syria says 29 students killed in mortar attack

29 children killed. No coverage in the media. No worldwide protest demonstrations, Turkish politicians don't cry on TV. Nobody cares. Including UN that is so obsessive with nuclear program inspection in Israel.

Edited December 4, 2012 by void_false

[[frl]myke 14]

Life is not fair, the world is not fair. Deal with it. Also comparing a nuclear threat which would/could affect a big chunk of the world isn't comparable to deaths by mortars (doesn't make it less tragic, don't get me wrong on that).

[seba1976 98]

You've linked the wrong article. The right one would be:

So now, as a tax payer, I can breathe freely knowing that money that I earn won't be used by my enemy to produce weapons and such. Also, I'm very happy to see that I won't pay my enemy's bills for electricity, gas and water. So yeah, for them the freebie is over.

And about nuclear program inspection... They may dream about it as much as they want. Not gonna happen. I guarantee you that.

2/3 Israeli, +120 Palestinians killed. And you asked why they stopped bombing...

[MAVEN 1]

There is a saying that goes like this - One can't untie a tied knot without pulling out the inner strings.

Which means that to understand something serious and aging you need to know its roots and cause.

The story about Israelis and Muslims in the region is probably best known by none less than Israelis and Muslims there. However the real truth is not hidden, but well camouflaged from public eyes, at least general public eyes.

It all started not 10, not 50, not 100 but thousands of years ago, back when religions formed and people lived in unity.

Christianity sprung to life, Islam sprung to life, Judism sprung to life. However, pressure populated over time over who will have what, go where and do things. So the 3 major religious groups started to steer away from eachother and become hostile. It was for many years that one side tried to destroy another, mostly via propaganda and war. For example Jews purposely destroyed many scripts of original biblical canon translations, while Muslims did damage to Jews, Christians to Muslims, and so on. It never ends.

Today you have Middle Easterns flocking to the West, primarily moving to United States and rotting it from core. While all brave true American/English/German/Whatever soldiers die in middle of nowhere and for no good reason and Europe is set ablaze by poorest of people.

The thing is, this was happening all over and over and it wont stop. So next time anyone wonders about any conflict think about it, it's just something that was happening and will happen just like our planet changes poles or year changes seasons, in a way it's nothing new really. People will keep killing people, and while some die others will find a way to entertain themselves with that.

IMHO, I don't care who wins, if it was for me, I would supply weaponry to both Jews and Muslims, then have a seat and watch the show unfold, and when dust settles down finish off the winner. That being said I ain't no racist or hater, I'm an opportunist. I have both Jewish and Muslim colleagues and we are cool with eachother, but seriously, if you want to fight then at least accept the fact you will be used for mockery by a superior power and race. I'm a Septugint for those who wonder (if) and to me war is just a game.

Anyway, I understand BI is focused on military games/simulators, and that military is linked to politics, but political discussion simply doesn't fit this community as it always leads to fights and most people here are fierce fighters. If you want to rant about who murders whom find a forum dedicated to such low stuff, there are many Zionist/Jihadist/Whateverist organizations who don't have better stuff to do in life. But then again, it's just my opinion.

[froggyluv 2136]

Very simple. Israel citizens pay taxes, then Israel government takes that money and streams it as a tribute to "Palestine". Now our government grew balls to end this absurd.

.

Yes, having to take care of a people one occupies can be tiresome. More tiresome still is 3 Billion of my tax money having to pay for Israel's welfare every year.

[spooky lynx 73]

So now, as a tax payer, I can breathe freely knowing that money that I earn won't be used by my enemy to produce weapons and such. Also, I'm very happy to see that I won't pay my enemy's bills for electricity, gas and water. So yeah, for them the freebie is over.

You occupied them by your own will so don't cry about taxes. If you don't want to pay them - let them have their own state and own tax system.

And about nuclear program inspection... They may dream about it as much as they want. Not gonna happen. I guarantee you that.

Oh what a splurge... Qaddafi thought nothing gonna happen after he will disperse so called protests. Where is he and his country? Mubarak thought the same. Where is he now? If you have some US and EU help now it doesn't matter you will have it forever and will be able to do whatever you want.