Cover Systems, Lean & Realism

[maddogx 13]

i both like and dislike the cover systems in that, its not realistic when your taking cover and can still see the enemy but it does ensure that your character is taking cover. if they would make it so that you cant see past your true line of sight then, it would be more realistic and practical. so i think the solution if this were implemented is when you take cover, you no longer can see what you shouldnt be able to see. if you want to see around that corner, your head at least needs to poke out risking the chance of getting shot.

You seem to be assuming that a cover system must necessarily be from a 3rd person perspective, though that isn't the case at all. The suggestions made here so far are all for 1st person systems if I'm not mistaken, so such things should not be an issue. ;)

I like this idea, but how hard will it be to achieve this? None of us knows what kind of animation system BIS will be using in A3. Will it be rigid, tied to stances or will it be dynamic. If we get the dynamic one then this Idea is possible. We can even expand on it. Hit the crouched or prone key to immediately switch to this stance, hit the key combo again to get into shooting position. Poping out of cover would work great that way.

We know that BI's new animation system supports some form of IK, just not to what degree. Making natural looking fluid vertical stances is indeed quite difficult, but I think it's possible. Whether or not their system can support such a thing is another matter, but then again this discussion is most likely academic in any case. I think it's unlikely that BIS will make such major changes to their movement system at this point in development if they weren't planning on doing so anyway, so at best they might take some inspiration for an already WIP system out of this. At worst, this discussion is entirely pointless. :D

But there is one problem, what happens if you move? If you move in ACE your weapon is not rested anymore. My suggestion: While in this mode the player can move left or right slow along the wall, he can´t leave the wall unless he hits the S key or leaves that position by hitting a stance key.

As stated before, I don't believe player movement should be restricted at all, unless you're resting your weapon - which should be done with a separate key, as per DMarkwick's suggestion. In that case (when weapon resting that is), I imagine you would be stuck in one position and the view would pivot around the point at which your rifle is rested. Moving in any direction could cancel the weapon resting though, sure. That's just the weapon resting part though, which is optional.

The core of my earlier suggestion is that you're not stuck anywhere. If you're next to a wall and looking through ironsights, you avatar will raise his stance so as to keep the barrel above the wall. If you move sideways or turn using the mouse, he will raise/lower himself accordingly. If you move away from the wall, he should most likely go back into the default height. Conversely, if you are in ironsight mode and move up to a wall, I guess your avatar could raise himself aswell. Always dependent on the direction you are pointing at, of course. As far as movement goes, it should be completely unrestricted and fluid.

Edited March 13, 2012 by MadDogX

[NoRailgunner 0]

Lol MadDogX I got you with your first reply and your arrogance shows only how sensitive you are if it comes to reading + understanding opinions. I want that the player is able to change/stop all of his movements/animations without clipping or snapping him into pre-defined (cover) positions, I like that players are fully responsible for their actions be it weapon resting or reloading etc.... Whats wrong with that? Sorry if you feel offended! But after all it seems that you can scrap your statements within seconds - thats a good sign, isn't it?

[maddogx 13]

Lol MadDogX I got you with your first reply and your arrogance shows only how sensitive you are if it comes to reading + understanding opinions. I want that the player is able to change/stop all of his movements/animations without clipping or snapping him into pre-defined (cover) positions, I like that players are fully responsible for their actions be it weapon resting or reloading etc.... Whats wrong with that? Sorry if you feel offended! But after all it seems that you can scrap your statements within seconds - thats a good sign, isn't it?

You seem to be rather emotionally invested in this subject, considering that you keep coming back on the ad hominem angle. What gives? Calling me a "fanboi" or suggesting that I want some "UltraAuto" mode is not a valid "opinion" by any stretch of the imagination. How about you actually try and counter my arguments instead of attacking me on a personal level and making false assumptions?

To be clear, at no point in my posts did I suggest "snapping" anyone into pre-defined cover positions - this is entirely your mistaken interpretation. My suggestion is merely about guiding the player's vertical stance based on obstructions in front of him - his position and facing should still be entirely free, as per usual.

[antoineflemming 14]

MOH one is too quick and clumsy to me. Red Orchestra one just demonstrates blind firing more than anything.

I think animations will sort this stuff out, a good solid and fluid animation will help when leaning are corners or quick-peeking without overly exposing us.

@antoineflemming

Duck, maybe, how would it work?

"why not just have objects that actually block, or slow down bullets" - What do you mean by this?

Duck would be just a stance thing. Ever used SMK's Animation Pack. There's an animation where you can kneel over and take cover. As far as objects that block or slow down bullets, what I'm suggesting (in relation to the cover system) is that you don't necessarily need some special feature to use cover. In real life, you just run behind an object (say, a wall, or sandbags), that provides sufficient cover. And it covers you. That's what I mean. Now, if people want a back-to-wall feature, then yeah, there should be a specific cover feature.

[cotton 1]

considering the game is both 3rd and first person, it would need to be addressed both ways. neither should be neglected.

I dont know if i should make a new post regarding this suggestion/idea but it would be great to see other CQC elements such as breaching methods and stacking.. average players would open the door and go in... it would be great to see realistic elements of knocking down a door/opening a door that would reward a team for having their doorkicker/opener open the door for their stacked up team so they can move in. different options of tools for breaching - door hammer, shaped charges, shotgun, water/c4 for metal doors. again.... dynamic movement, not clunky; that would just kill it all together. this would bridge the gap that is currently there. arma handles well for ranged combat, but in cqc, its like strangling yourself with your shoelaces. I'm looking forward to navigating across the terrain to the target and infiltrating cities/buildings.

[antoineflemming 14]

The Medal of Honor one is pretty cool, but I definitely have to toss my support hat in for Red Orchestra 2's, if you haven't seen it, here's a little demo:

watch?v=ra2Yh8b0qyI

*can't post the link because it's my first post

I like the Medal of Honor lean. It's really convenient especially when crouched, because you can lean left of right, you can duck down left or right, or you can peek up left or right or straight up. It's a fluid six-point lean system. Only possible problem is that you can't walk or run when leaning. For me that's not a problem, but for some people it might be. You lean with the ALT key, and you move your mouse to lean in the direction you want to lean.

[batto 17]

Hi. IMO Rainbow 6: Raven Shield leaning/crouching is almost perfect. I can't come up with anything better.

The core of my earlier suggestion is that you're not stuck anywhere. If you're next to a wall and looking through ironsights, you avatar will raise his stance so as to keep the barrel above the wall. If you move sideways or turn using the mouse, he will raise/lower himself accordingly. If you move away from the wall, he should most likely go back into the default height. Conversely, if you are in ironsight mode and move up to a wall, I guess your avatar could raise himself aswell. Always dependent on the direction you are pointing at, of course. As far as movement goes, it should be completely unrestricted and fluid.

Too intrusive IMO. I would just forcibly lower gun so if you need to be close to the wall (to avoid being hit from multiple directions) you could sneak over the corner. Of course gun should go back normal as soon as it'll be possible.

By the way according to this podcast MG resting is "technically to complicated to implement" but I'm not sure wheter Martin talked about A2 or A3 (he no longer works for BIS)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?119218-Latest-quot-ARMA-3-quot-Press-Coverage-NO-discussion-here!&p=2117862&viewfull=1#post2117862

Edited March 13, 2012 by batto

[NoRailgunner 0]

MadDogX just read my first comment (#17) and read this as suggestion/idea to this thread, not as personal attack against you. Now look at your response post (#18).... What is and feels more smooth/precise "to peek" or "to raise/lower" your head, weapon etc - single/double keypress or mousewheel? Of course using TrackIR or motion sensing device would feel more fluent and "real"....

[liquidpinky 11]

MadOf course using TrackIR or motion sensing device would feel more fluent and "real"....

Not really, using it in Take On is a PITA. I would rather it be assigned to buttons or keys.

[Brutus404 10]

What about the Crysis 2 (singleplayer) cover system? Of course with proper sight/bore line displacement, which Crysis 2 didn't get right unfortunately.

Aim at what you want to lean around (or over), hold right mouse button and aim just like you would normally do. The camera adapts appropriatly. No weird camera rolls, complete control over the amount that you lean past a corner and alse the possibility to simplify the bipod mechanism (should they implement one). Also, you get your Q and E keys (by default) back to use for something else. Arma already requires enough of my keyboard.

Now that I'm typing this though, two issues already came to my mind:

1. Crysis 2 is a first person game. Animations of the player don't need to be spot on, since the player will never see them. Making the animations good will be quite difficult, and getting the hitboxes right for multiplayer might be even harder. This is probably the reason why I don't recall Crysis 2 multiplayer having this lean system.

2. Crysis 2 is a lineair game, set in an urban environment hence it has a lot of blocky geometry (cover). This system works very well with this kind of geometry, but I don't see it combine so well with the rocks and stones we'll be hiding after a lot in A3.

Nevertheless, I think that if BI got this working properly it'll be fantastic.

[maddogx 13]

What is and feels more smooth/precise "to peek" or "to raise/lower" your head, weapon etc - single/double keypress or mousewheel? Of course using TrackIR or motion sensing device would feel more fluent and "real"....

Again I point to Vietcong - look at this video from 1:10. The guy crouches behind a tree trunk, and when he goes into ironsights mode his stance is shifted upwards. This works with a single key and - in my experience playing hours of VC, albeit a few years ago - this feels absolutely fluent and "real". On the other hand, I can imagine having to scroll up until I find the "sweet spot" being quite cumbersome in every day use, especially since no two objects are the same height. Not to mention I would have to keep switching my index finger from LMB to scroll wheel in order to pop out of cover. This is the point I was making in post #18. ;)

So to answer your question as to which would be more smooth and precise, I would answer: a single keypress. A fluid stance is not needed if I am always trying to hit a specific position anyway - in that case a single key is the better option.

Then there is, again as stated before, the question of why else a fluid stance system would be needed. Apart from looking over objects and walls with minimum exposure, what else would it be good for?

[Smurf 12]

No need for even more keys\combos for something as simple as this. Also:

Plus, there are some "middle animations" for each stance while aiming (you get higher) and "contextual height" while using cover.

Note the guy in the middle and in the right side of the pic. They are both crouching but the one thats aiming is a bit higher (and leaning and probably resting his rifle in the window frame; all with 1 button). Just that should be enough to make most covers usable, unlike the stone walls on Chernarus, which are too low for a crouch stance.

[pe3rless 1]

Dynamo;2119174']um.. no thanks.. look at the 1:20 mark.. notice how the sight line of the scope is hardly an inch above the rock not even 2 feet in front of him? where the hell is the muzzle of the rifle? thats right.. clipping through the rock' date=' as games like those don't properly simulate weapons. they simply have a camera right in the middle of the player's forehead (thats right, not even eye level), so when the player peaks over an object, just the very top of their heads are visible(known in the industry as eye level exploit). this lets the player shoot from behind cover without exposing them selfs.. screw that! every game with the exception of BIS games use this crap. since the shot is calculated from the center of the camera's view, as long as the center pixel clears an object, you can shoot over it.. NOT REALISTIC! keep that crap the hell away from my ArmA![/quote']im not talking about the way the whole game is run its just an example of a system that could be cool where it was fluid you could lean,duck and have control of how far out and how low you go it can still be done the way you want just with the system yeah medal of honors way of doing it may not be realistic but this does not mean it can't be done realistically

[Minoza 11]

Hi. IMO Rainbow 6: Raven Shield leaning/crouching is almost perfect. I can't come up with anything better.

It was very good back then. The only thing that could maybe be a better solution, instead of using mouse to lean, use WSAD keys in the lean mode (hotkey pressed) for leaning and use mouse for aiming.

[metalcraze 290]

The problem with R6RS is that you smoothly go from prone stance to standing stance - which in reality a human can't do.

The best solution is to keep prone/crouch/stand stances - because that's how they are in real life - but at the same time give some degree of freedom to adjust them Raven Shield style. Not to the extreme like it's there, but f.e. so you can come crouching to a wall and then peek above it by simply setting stance a bit higher

As for console cover systems - they are the worst thing to ever get into the shooter genre. A big no for a PC game.

While I can understand why they are really there - to make console shooters playable with gamepads since they are very imprecise and slow and lack buttons so it's better to just glue player to a box that bullets don't penetrate and let him play whac-a-mole with enemies (especially implementations where player and enemies cover with their backs to a wall and thus to each other are facepalm inducing) - they have no place in PC gaming where a large degree of freedom of movement is possible and will in fact be a massive step back from what we have in ArmA.

Edited March 13, 2012 by metalcraze

[Choki 10]

No need for even more keys\combos for something as simple as this. Also:

Note the guy in the middle and in the right side of the pic. They are both crouching but the one thats aiming is a bit higher (and leaning and probably resting his rifle in the window frame; all with 1 button). Just that should be enough to make most covers usable, unlike the stone walls on Chernarus, which are too low for a crouch stance.

I agree, that game have really good cover system. Is simple and posible to BIS

[hellfire257 3]

I'd certainly like one. IRRC, the one in Brothers in Arms was quite good. But the problem is getting it "right" in 1st person.

[maddogx 13]

I'd certainly like one. IRRC, the one in Brothers in Arms was quite good. But the problem is getting it "right" in 1st person.

The first hurdle to overcome is to realize that it can be done right at all. Metalcraze managed to list everything that is wrong with most existing cover systems, but to say that cover systems must all be this way and therefore will always suck is false. With a little imagination, a cover system that works intuitively and feels natural is absolutely concievable.

[daman3 19]

To madDogs, I recall Crysis 2 having the yame cover system as Vietcong only more refined, you should take a look into that

[Brutus404 10]

To madDogs, I recall Crysis 2 having the yame cover system as Vietcong only more refined, you should take a look into that

Yeah thats what i posted on page 4.

[kosmonaut 10]

I'd also suggest usage of a system similar to RO2's. It feels really fluid and not all that restrictive.

[twisted 128]

The ability to rapidly get behind cover is important too. Fluidity and intuitive implementation are very important here. Also, say a run and stumble into cover is implemented (sprint. Then prone key) . How fast do you get back in stance, and which stance? Getting this smooth but not superhuman or terminator style is essential.

[hoak 0]

I agree with those citing RO2 as a good standard, not just for cover execution but the fact that you you don't cant your weapon when 'leaning' and the camera view doesn't roll -- the former being something trained out of most Soldiers rather rigorously and the latter is just technically incorrect and cheap, fast and dirty way to add leaning. Stance based leaning FTW!

:D

[antoineflemming 14]

The ability to rapidly get behind cover is important too. Fluidity and intuitive implementation are very important here. Also, say a run and stumble into cover is implemented (sprint. Then prone key) . How fast do you get back in stance, and which stance? Getting this smooth but not superhuman or terminator style is essential.

Well I'd honestly like to be able to sprint and slide into cover, with my back or side to the wall or sandbags or whatever. And then be able to pull off from the wall seamlessly by pressing a key. Yeah, it's sort of sticking you to the wall, but with ArmA's current clipping issues, that'd be best. I originally said that ArmA 3 doesn't need a cover system, just objects, walls and stuff that actually can provide some cover (as in degrees of protection from bullets). After playing around with Smookie's animation pack (got a new laptop a couple months ago, forgot to redownload the pack), and seeing a video of Ghost Recon Future Soldier, I think it'd be pretty important for ArmA 3, especially CQC. Now, GRFS is way to fast when it comes to their "cover swapping" crap. But, if there could be some sort of implementation where when you slide to cover (kinda like in the SMK animation pack where you sprint and press c to slide), you automatically link to the wall (as in not a long drawn out animation), that could be really helpful. And by pressing a some key (in the animation pack it was turbo + c to get off the wall), you could get off seamlessly and quickly. But not like GRFS, where you can snap out of and into cover (super fast, unrealistic peeking from cover...). I say GRFS because I haven't really looked at RO2.

[metalcraze 290]

To madDogs, I recall Crysis 2 having the yame cover system as Vietcong only more refined, you should take a look into that

And it's beyond awful.

Instead of leaning like in normal shooters you first have to waste a lot of time (when you are under fire in a console shooter with health regen it isn't a long time, but in ArmA it matters times more) looking for a sweet spot which will allow you to press that button.

But that's only just the first problem. The second, much bigger problem is that you can look from behind cover along the same scripted circle-like trajectory.

There's absolutely zero control if you want to look in a different direction or control how much of yourself you expose compared to leaning and moving right now - it's the same scripted rails added to walls.

Again this was done for gamepads, not to improve gameplay. Because compared to what we have in ArmA2 it's a step back. You can do the same in ArmA2 and much more.

Well I'd honestly like to be able to sprint and slide into cover

To sprint somewhere in ArmA2: press W facing the needed direction.

Also try going outside and sliding. Preferably with 20 KGs of gear. Then report back about your injuries and torn clothes.

After playing around with Smookie's animation pack

Which is completely unrealistic. I mean it has back-to-wall stance and blindfire... with a steady aim of all things. And when soldiers crouch it's like they are taking a dump. And you can shoot while lying on your side. It's not serious.

and seeing a video of Ghost Recon Future Soldier

Let's find ideas for ArmA in Gears of War too then

Is this thread about ArmA with "Realism" word in a title or a hollywoodish shooter where soldiers jump and slide into silly stances clown-style to look effective not be effective?

Edited March 26, 2012 by metalcraze