Cover Systems, Lean & Realism

[NoRailgunner 0]

Seems that you should open your eyes and search a little more about the differences between blindfire and cover fire/suppressive fire and how its done and used. Please no more vids that show only a pic or a snippets!! Show us effective blindfire including the effect on the enemy not just shooting in the air. "Hopefully" and "lucky" there are only combatants in the room/area of blindfire.... but who cares in todays modern warfare games about civilians/non-combatants or ROE's? :D

[batto 17]

Show us effective blindfire including the effect on the enemy not just shooting in the air.

Do the dirty job. Pick some current war, go there and see for yourself. Maybe you could show us some effective supressive fire first.

"Hopefully" and "lucky" there are only combatants in the room/area of blindfire

"Hopefully" and "lucky" there are only combatants in the area of artillery, grenade, bomb, suppresive fire, ...

[maturin 12]

Go away, Norailgunner. Unless you're going to show us videos of aimed fire having 'effect on the enemy.' I could use your line of argument and and claim that ALL guns are an amateur weapon that have never been useful in war. Youtube videos don't show people getting shot, and everything else is against the rules here.

Even if we discard all the evidence of trained soldiers blind firing because you say we should, the fact remains that non-professional fighters may be expected to do so. And gee, I vaguely remember Delta Force not being the ONLY units in these games.

Now, does the game actually need blind firing? I don't really see how it could be ergonomically practical with the controls, or even one tenth as (in)effective as it is in real life, at least not without cheap third person. It's not high on my list.

[NoRailgunner 0]

What's your problem again? Where are the full videos/reports showing all of the scenery? I bet that most of them would show that soldiers were able to direct, observe and correct their fire. The other videos would simply show that blindfire is not "highly effective" as some people here claim. Btw would blindfire play a more important role in 2035? Imo its more important to get players character and AI moving smooth without (or at least with less) clunky animations. Perhaps BIS are going to implement some sort of gradual leaning and standing, raising/lowering the head, climbing over obstacles?? What about A3 objects and their damage or destruction parameters? Guess in the end we all would like to see more natural animations/movements incl. stopping/changing them. Some additional features might be nice and optional but the main concern is how real does one feel/move in A3.

[batto 17]

What's your problem again? Where are the full videos/reports showing all of the scenery? I bet that most of them would show that soldiers were able to direct, observe and correct their fire. The other videos would simply show that blindfire is not "highly effective" as some people here claim. Btw would blindfire play a more important role in 2035?

You realize that IRL it's life or death? Such situation may happen rarely but it may happen. I'm sure it happened in WW2. What's the difference between soldier with automatic rifle surrounded by enemies in WW2 and 2035? Both are scared to death and want to survive. In such situations your amazing tactics has already failed! And I want to experience such situations in a game (NO I WILL NOT GO PLAY COD BECAUSE ITS NOT REALISTIC OK?). Btw, you sound like you're experienced. How many wars have you fought?

It's foolish to argument with BIS priorities.

Show me some videos of effective suppressive fire...

Edited March 30, 2012 by batto

[Smurf 12]

I am really sorry to have to say this again, but go play Red Orchestra 2 and see how the system work there. And by system I mean: animations in general, cover (the one that you press a key to "stick" to cover), blind firing,rest\deploy weapons, stamina and supression.

It has everything that NoRailgunner mention (except for gradual leaning) and the games flows in a very natural way; the whole thing just make sense! You don´t have to worry about key "combos" nor with the amount of used keys ;it uses the same amount as any other shooter and you can achieve more.

It became a new standard for me for FPS and devs (not only BIS) should aim for it.

*Forget about the small maps and fast paced gamestyle, that can be (and have been) tweaked\modded and has nothing to do with the actual system.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Smurf

[froggyluv 2130]

IIRC Smookies animation pack has this and I don't think I ever hit jack with it even in 3rd person mode (which I generally dont use as infantry anyways). I like the fact that it was there but don't like using moves that the AI cant. That said, I hope the AI does have the capability BUT use it extremely infrequently, perhaps after a squad radio check when they realise they are pinned down, surrounded etc...

This leads to better variety in AI emergent gameplay -firefights that you remember.

[antoineflemming 14]

It is pretty useless though. Unless there's some kind of suppression system and you're using an automatic weapon or something like that. I just wish there'd be some kind of cover system where I can actually take cover with my shoulder on the wall or something and be able to peek out and shoot. That I think would be more useful than blindfire. However, just because it isn't useful doesn't mean soldiers don't use it.

[dmarkwick 261]

Seems that you should open your eyes and search a little more about the differences between blindfire and cover fire/suppressive fire and how its done and used. Please no more vids that show only a pic or a snippets!! Show us effective blindfire including the effect on the enemy not just shooting in the air. "Hopefully" and "lucky" there are only combatants in the room/area of blindfire.... but who cares in todays modern warfare games about civilians/non-combatants or ROE's? :D

I think you're seeing the information wrong, the videos do not (and can not) show any effect of blindfire on an enemy, only that blindfire is occasionally used. Whether it's an effective tactic isn't even an issue, only the fact that it happens.

[Whirly 1]

What's your problem again? Where are the full videos/reports showing all of the scenery? I bet that most of them would show that soldiers were able to direct, observe and correct their fire.

Take note of blindfire at 0:25.

Watch all the video.

FML00Paj_dU

[antoineflemming 14]

You know, even more so that players being able to use it, I'd like for AI to use it.

[Choki 10]

this game cant have cover. Is too much for AI and developers

[rye1 21]

@antoineflemming, Fully agreed. That would be awesome to see some insurgent go at you like that. Maybe it would differentiate the "skilled" from the "unskilled", or the "comfortable" from the "uncomfortable". The "insurgent" from the "soldier". And on your comment, "be able to peek out and shoot", maybe the blindfire animation could be coupled to allow you to peek around a corner. Who knows. There is only possibilities but no clarification, it's too early.

@NoRailGunner, He has posted a few real-life occasions in which it did work with enemy insurgents KIA in Iraq (I have the pictures). But effectiveness, how is it measured for you? You must remember for any tactic to work, and therefore be a tactic (something that offers you more survivability and an advantage, offensive or defensive), it must have the correct conditions. And I don't know about you but there has been full videos posted, look back a few pages. Full reports are unlikely, I mean come on. And in a report who mentions "I used blindfire to..".

And you can argue its importance in a time setting, an era, but in all reality it comes down to the situation doesn't it? Not the era. Argentinians were still using trench warfare during the Falklands. Guerrillas are still using all kinds of tactics from all kinds of time settings, WW2, WW1! Some people on this planet still hunt with a bow and arrow you know, I'm sure they'd go to war with it too. But don't act like it's an out-phased action to conduct, because they still have places within the environment of which you can conduct it - humans remain the same, chokepoints do also; technology may influence a fair deal - but fair game, I'm sure someone could find a place to use it.

Gradual leaning is great, works in RVS for me. It's just holding the button, and having the aiming static - then leaning out, creates me to over-expose and be shot before I can move the mouse to engage (because I'm holding the lean button). That's the stupid part! Raising and lowering head, cool ideas also, we have an ALT button to look around, maybe we could use it to pop over. Climbing over obstacles, even cooler idea, we have the V button to hop a fence, why not hop a wall? They are all possibilities and pretty credible ideas. I won't take that away from you NoRailGunner.

If BIS are interested they'll test it. They could use SMK_anims for a tester before going into actual development. We could even, to test our theories.

[batto 17]

maybe the blindfire animation could be coupled to allow you to peek around a corner.

In R6: Vegas 2 AI did this all the time. AI was kinda good there. They didn't run at you like in CoD. Instead they camped behind corners and occasionally peek, peek & fired or blind fired. They even yelled that they don't plan running on you.

[antoineflemming 14]

this game cant have cover. Is too much for AI and developers

Pretty sure that's not the first time you've said that. So why keep saying the same thing? It amounts to spam IMO.

[smookie 11]

My take on this issue (totally unrelated to what will appear in the final product) is that the most realistic thing is what is physcially plausible. Enforcing player to follow all training-based guidelines is the wrong way to go. Player should decide for themselves what type of gameplay they prefer. After all, contrary to our fanboi troll lodge opinion, the game is made for everyone, not only military geeks, and therefore not everyone will keep on playing the righteous uber-tactically-taught soldiers but there might be a considerable ammount of people prefering to stick with civilian or guerilla type of forces.

[saltatormortis 12]

thats everything what i want to hear :-)

and i have a question:

-is there a way to disable the unwanted part of the features via serverconfig/plugin?

---this would be cool to make the basics fair for PVP etc

[rye1 21]

thats everything what i want to hear :-)

+1. Who plays Arma for doctrine? Pfft.

[Whirly 1]

Former Commandant of the Marine Corps Paul X. Kelley once said that the effect of the introduction of the M16 rifle was that "The United States used to be known as a Nation of Riflemen; now we've become a Nation of Sprayers". It was due to the tendency of soldiers to spray and pray during the Vietnam War that the US replaced the automatic-fire setting that was on the original M16 with three-round burst fire for the M16A2 and M16A4/M4 carbine. I'm sure most you guys here have a good understanding of marksmanship fundamentals, obviously it's preferable to aim rifles and machine guns at targets by aligning the sight system, but in the heat of battle sometimes firing blindly is the only viable option.

[-Coulum- 35]

Blind firing is definitely used in reality. Weather it is effective or not is another question but it doesn't really matter. If you can do it in real life, and it is done often in real life, why keep it out of arma 3? I'm sure people will learn to restrain themselves from doing it when m203 start landing right beside them. Then again it could be used as a good hit and run tactic to confuse the enemy without exposing yourself to real danger. ie. blindfire around a corner run away and flank. The enemy still thinks your around the corner and will act accordingly. Then they get hit in the side and think there getting attacke by several opponents. I think it would be good to have in game and might actually encourage more suppression to be used in game, and encourage people to not focus so much kill shots but also aiming to supress.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Just wonder if some people here don't have CO or just didn't try to fire their weapons without using ironsight/scope view (aka using "spree-shooting")? Of course it would be nice if BIS can make all the things but it would be better if they also make them reasonable realistic with all their pro's and con's. One can surely shoot blindly from behind an object on something that is not in his FOV or field of view but the result should not be the same like if this target is in his FOV. The result of blindfire should be imo in A3 "luck if you hit someone or something important with blindfire". Chances that the oppenent (AI) will be confused by blindfire max 50/50. Chances of hitting anything precisely without getting in steady or stable position = low or 0. Imo A3 with a proper weight-endurance system incl. anims for weapons would be better than some sort of "all-can-jump'n'slide" funshooter.

[4 IN 1 0]

Even more troubling would be the fact that there probably be 100 more different key binding to remember if you want to map in every single move that can be done in real life into the game, which result in adding a extra layer of complex control for the already complicating control and combat environment, now imagine you are forced to use only one set of key binding that the game gave you instead of mapping your own to fit your purpose(the main thing why I just don't use those animation pack, nor do I think they are tacticool enought anyway)

[-Coulum- 35]

Just wonder if some people here don't have CO or just didn't try to fire their weapons without using ironsight/scope view (aka using "spree-shooting")? Of course it would be nice if BIS can make all the things but it would be better if they also make them reasonable realistic with all their pro's and con's. One can surely shoot blindly from behind an object on something that is not in his FOV or field of view but the result should not be the same like if this target is in his FOV. The result of blindfire should be imo in A3 "luck if you hit someone or something important with blindfire". Chances that the oppenent (AI) will be confused by blindfire max 50/50. Chances of hitting anything precisely without getting in steady or stable position = low or 0. Imo A3 with a proper weight-endurance system incl. anims for weapons would be better than some sort of "all-can-jump'n'slide" funshooter.

I don't think anybody wants blind firing to actually be a viable method of killing opponents, but rather a means to suppress/confuse the enemy without putting oneself in mortal danger. Your right, the chances of actually hitting someone is diddly squat but in real war, which arma tries to mimick, the bullets that hit are not the only ones that count. Suppressive fire is a huge part of firefights and personally I think there is already a huge lack of it in arma 2.

But I do agree that there are probably other things that could use improving rather than adding blind firing and we can't have "all the things". Things like making the ai actually react to suppressive fire, a better weight-endurance system, more complex aiming system, would all definitely be higher on my list of wishes than blind firing. But if they did implement it you wouldn't hear me complaining.

Even more troubling would be the fact that there probably be 100 more different key binding to remember if you want to map in every single move that can be done in real life into the game, which result in adding a extra layer of complex control for the already complicating control and combat environment, now imagine you are forced to use only one set of key binding that the game gave you instead of mapping your own to fit your purpose(the main thing why I just don't use those animation pack, nor do I think they are tacticool enought anyway)

I guess. I think most people would be able to live with it though. and those that can't just wouldn't be able to slide, blindfire etc. not really that big of a disadvantage.

[4 IN 1 0]

I guess. I think most people would be able to live with it though. and those that can't just wouldn't be able to slide, blindfire etc. not really that big of a disadvantage.

Then they better don't force people to use only one set of key binding as well because many people just don't give a crap about with sliding, blindfiring etc

[-Coulum- 35]

Then they better don't force people to use only one set of key binding as well because many people just don't give a crap about with sliding, blindfiring etc

People should definitely be able to choose their own key bindings. I think they already do a pretty fair job of it now, although it takes forever to do.